Quote from: SilverFang on April 10, 2010, 08:46:59 PM
Not a very good world. A lot of social norms are there for a reason.  So if I want to be a murderer, I should be able to murder with encouragement instead of consequence?

When making such a statement, I usually remember to add "so long as no one is hurt", or something like that.  Next time I will make an extra effort to qualify my statement better.

My general opinion of laws are simple. You can do ANYTHING you want, as long as you don't take away someones else's right to do the same.

You can't kill someone because in so doing, you took away their right to do the same. etc.

There have been many publicized incidents where soldiers have carried out horrific acts against innocent people who just happened to be residents of the country seen as the enemy.

As with practically every situation where one human inflicts pain and suffering upon another human, the process of dehumanization preceded it to one level or another.  Once the mind is convinced a human being is less than human, and therefore not deserving of moral consideration, acts normally thought of being unspeakable can occur.

I would imagine in the Milgram Experiment the subjects somehow rationalized the person they were sending shocks to was deserving of the pain inflicted because they had answered the question wrongly.  They were less than human.  They should have gotten it right.  And maybe the subjects thought they were helping the less than human become better humans by making them realize there's a price to pay for failing.

It is that sort of rationalization we see when we encounter prejudice, discrimination and hatred.  If we are mean, hurtful or even violent to those we deem less than human, they will see the error of their ways and reform. 

The Catholic Church has stood firmly against LGBT people because it says we are unrepentant sinners who are destroying humanity.  But the RCC unapologeticly protected their priests who molested children.  In their eyes, LGBT people are less than human while their priests are messengers from God.  So the RCC can, in good conscious, work against LGBTs, spread untruths, impair their ability to live a happy life and openly condemn them.  In other words, ZAP 'EM!  But at the same time they steadfastly support their pedophile priests and use their power and influence to the point of keeping local authorities from prosecuting and incarcerating the criminals.

This is roughly the point that McLaren was trying to make - many religious organizations dehumanize those who are not "part of the flock" or who do not conform to their concept of acceptable human behavior.  And in the end, they do not feel they have done anything wrong, even if clear thinking people disagree with them.

Call it conditioning.  Call it brainwashing.  Whatever you call it, it has been part of our culture for too long.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on April 11, 2010, 11:48:28 PM
Discussion isn't difficult, when you understand what you are discussing.  The point of the experiment wasn't to show that people would follow authority.  The point of the experiment was to show that people would follow authority... when they have none of their own.  By using authoritative language and posturing, the confederates in the experiment were able to "convince" the subjects to perform morally questionable actions which were beyond their level of comfort.

The experiment was contrived, but the results are not useless.

Not quite.

In his preamble, Milgram posed the question:  "Was it that Eichmann and his accomplices in the Holocaust had mutual intent, in at least with regard to the goals of the Holocaust?" In other words, "Was there a mutual sense of morality among those involved?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

"Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"

http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm

Like many, Milgram was perplexed by the realities that emerged from the reporting of WW2.

As a Jew, Milgram felt the threat to his existence by the events. In 1958 he wrote:

My true spiritual home is Central Europe, not France, the Mediterranean countries, England, Scandinavia or Northern Germany, but that area which is bounded by the cities of Munich, Vienna and Prague .... I should have been born into the German-speaking Jewish community of Prague in 1922 and died in a gas chamber some 20 years later. How I came to be born in the Bronx Hospital, I'll never quite understand.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200203/the-man-who-shocked-the-world?page=2

This experiment was an exercise in soul searching by Milgram. A persistent theme among so many Jewish people that, even today, large numbers seem to be sitting on razor blades, waiting to leap to the attack at any perception of anti-Jewish notions.

The experiment was contrived because its setting was utterly artificial.

The experiment was useless because it demonstrated nothing at all. Many people find some particularly gory video games unplayable as a comparison.

But more importantly, the experiment was counter productive simply because it failed to understand the reasons for the behaviour of the guards in the camps and to understand why such things happened, happen and are continuing.

The reason is that war creates an insanity in otherwise decent people.

Not leadership.

The guards behaved in this way because they were placed in morally impossible situations. They were failures to their fellows. They were demoralised. Their work, to kill large numbers of humans, to guard large numbers of people who would resent being there and be difficult.

Milgram sought to find explanations. But his inability or fear of confronting the reality was his greatest failure.

Because the reason for the murders and the inhuman treatment was that that is what happens in war.

To demonstrate this we need only look at ever war that has happened since, where there is adequate reporting.

The same inhuman treatment has occurred, repeatedly.

No orders. No-one telling people to harm or hurt. Just large numbers of otherwise decent young men and women, forced into a situation that no human is capable of dealing with.

War creates these situations. Not Milgram.

Nah, it's not war, it's power that corrupts, both the holders and those who have it held on high for them to worship.