Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen

Started by Tammy Hope, April 07, 2010, 09:05:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dana Lane

PanoramaIsland, it is incredible how many people watch that video and actually thinks it makes sense. It is horrific that people can be that stupid. Or perhaps it isn't being stupid. Maybe it is just being willfully ignorant. Or maybe grasping at whatever straws they can to try and get a black president out of the white(house).
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
  •  

justmeinoz

I thought the reason for not going down the road of killing civilians away from the battlefield, as per the original posts on this subject, was so that firstly your enemy would not do it, and secondly to maintain a moral position.

These things were put in place because we claim to be civilised, even if our opponent is not, and to protect our own people. 

It is similar to the proscription on the use of torture, however now that the CIA has opened that can of worms, American POW's will be fair game.

"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
  •  

cynthialee

We are headed too civil war, Fox news is faning the flames.
Simply put I do not care what the left or right think of eachothers presidents. Both sides are so busy villifying eachother that it is impossible for the mass's to separate the chaff from the wheat so to speak.
Curently the right needs to calm down and allow the left to rule. The left won the pressidency not the right.

Also what is up with teabaggers showing up across the river from the capitol with guns? What would have happened if it was a rally of young black men with guns decrying the deplorable conditions of the inner cities?
I dont even need to answer that WE ALL know what would have happened.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

PanoramaIsland

Quote from: cynthialee on April 25, 2010, 07:30:33 AM
We are headed too civil war, Fox news is faning the flames.
Simply put I do not care what the left or right think of eachothers presidents. Both sides are so busy villifying eachother that it is impossible for the mass's to separate the chaff from the wheat so to speak.
Curently the right needs to calm down and allow the left to rule. The left won the pressidency not the right.

Also what is up with teabaggers showing up across the river from the capitol with guns? What would have happened if it was a rally of young black men with guns decrying the deplorable conditions of the inner cities?
I dont even need to answer that WE ALL know what would have happened.

With all due respect, I strongly disagree that the left won. It is the center that won, the Third Way. Many, many leftists - especially center-left and left-liberal/social liberal types - mobilized to get Obama into power, including my own brother and father, who went out of state to campaign for him. He was not, however, ever a leftist, and he never claimed to be.

That's the remarkable thing about Obama: as much as the left sighs and is disappointed, as much as the conservative media is a bit confused by his positions - much different than what both of them were, secretly or publicly, expecting - he is actually an excellent keeper of campaign promises. He put himself up there as this big symbol upon which the left projected its hopes and worries, the center projected its sigh of relief and some of its race/class anxieties, and the right projected its enormous fears. Yet, under all that, he stated very clearly in the campaign that he was going to keep us in Iraq for a good while, trying to patch things up; he said that getting out of Guantanamo was going to be slow-going; he very clearly indicated that his economic policies were not going to be an enormous shift to the left from Bush's strange amalgamation of pragmatic-neoliberalism and unpaid for government expansion, but only a shift towards trying to pay for things more and add to the debt less, and save money by reforming health care. He said he would pull back from deregulation, but the left projected quite a lot onto that - nationalization, real universal healthcare, etc. - that he wasn't really preaching for.

So, in short, the Obama we voted for is the Obama we got. That includes his quiet continuation of Bush's policies of expansive executive power and extraordinary military powers, such as this case of ordering a hit on a U.S. citizen that we are discussing right now. The Obama we voted for, and the Obama we got, is a centrist, not a man of the left.
  •  

lisagurl

QuoteActually, while government IS the problem - population is not. In the VAST majority of cases, when people suffer malnutrition and famine, it is because corrupt governments undermine the production and distribution of resources, not because there are not enough resources to go around.

This world works on trade. To get something you have to give something. Many over populated people get squeezed out of their home and are forced to occupy inhabitable land. This land has no natural resources for survival. Neither does the land they were squeezed out have enough natural resources to provide something to trade for all. Hence there are not enough resources to support the population.  People that have nothing to give will die.
  •  

Tammy Hope

Quote from: Dana Lane on April 25, 2010, 02:59:28 AM
PanoramaIsland, it is incredible how many people watch that video and actually thinks it makes sense. It is horrific that people can be that stupid. Or perhaps it isn't being stupid. Maybe it is just being willfully ignorant. Or maybe grasping at whatever straws they can to try and get a black president out of the white(house).

Just for the record - the folks who you just described as stupid? they think you are stupid too.

How are we better off if we divide up into camps of grade schoolers saying "You're stupid!" - "No YOU are!"

By the way - let's just drag it out into the open: i don't egree with EVERY point Beck makes, and i certainly understand not having much tolerance for his theatrical delivery but....

He's right FAAAAAAR more often than he's wrong - the spelling of "oligarch" aside.

So, ya know, go ahead and file me in the "stupid" folks you feel sorry for.

Quote

Politics as a disconnected, discombobulated, illiterate spectacle of lip-chewing, eye-widening fear, an enormous frothing broth of paranoia shoveled into the willingly opened mouths of one of the largest audiences in the country - that's what FOX sells, and it concerns me enormously.
Before I reply to this - let's hear your review of Bill Mahr, Keith Olberman, Michael Moore, Jenine Garafalono et al.

If you don't like over-the-top, hyperbolic, theatrical mugging rhetoric...i assume you don't like it across the board, right?


Post Merge: April 25, 2010, 12:29:16 PM

Quote from: cynthialee on April 25, 2010, 07:30:33 AM
We are headed too civil war, Fox news is faning the flames.
did you have similar sentiments about the rhetoric directed at George Bush?

Were MoveOn and MSNBC and so many others "fanning the flames of civil war"?
Quote
Simply put I do not care what the left or right think of eachothers presidents. Both sides are so busy villifying eachother that it is impossible for the mass's to separate the chaff from the wheat so to speak.
Curently the right needs to calm down and allow the left to rule. The left won the pressidency not the right.
Again - like the left "calmed down and let the Right govern" for the last eight years before the current administration?
Quote
Also what is up with teabaggers showing up across the river from the capitol with guns? What would have happened if it was a rally of young black men with guns decrying the deplorable conditions of the inner cities?
I dont even need to answer that WE ALL know what would have happened.
I do to - nothing, except tons of media attention about those poor oppressed people voicing their outrage at oppressive government.


Post Merge: April 25, 2010, 01:30:25 PM

By the way - isn't it marvelous how VERY few of the folks here can stop breathing out fire at Fox long enough to voice ANY disapproval of the policies described (and not by Fox) in the OP?

Nice DD&B folks.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
  •  

PanoramaIsland

Laura, the increasing theatricality of political discourse does concern me across the board, yes. There is also some dumbing down on the left and center-left as well as on the right, best represented perhaps by Michael Moore. Thank you for calling me out on that.
There is also some rhetoric of fear being used by folks like Moore and Olbermann, although Olbermann is an interesting animal - sensational and somewhat fear-based without necessarily being dumbed down. His facts tend to be solid and his analysis is decent, etc. - it's just delivered in a very theatrical and hyperbolic fashion. Like all such dramatic shows, his show tends to pick up on a lot of less-than-serious stories and portray them as more serious than they are, and also to inject perfectly silly and trivial content into blocks of serious discussion, a sort of Shakespearean populist comic relief move. I also think that his recent habit of reading James Thurber on air, while enjoyable and a great big slap in the face of trash TV, looks a bit silly. It would make a lot more aesthetic/psychological sense if someone quiet like Bill Moyers were doing it.

Olbermann is clearly literate and decently informed, however, and not prone to conspiracy theories and wildly fudging facts. Glenn Beck is none of those things. It is not merely that he is shouting; he seems to have abandoned fact-checking and any sort of real analysis in the process. He is channeling the fear and anxiety of a certain part of the nation's populace, and I understand that; however, he would do well to base his fear and anxiety on an informed analysis of the situation, rather than on conspiracies, easily disprovable claims and wildly emotional antics.

Beck is also unique in the incredible volume and tenor of his theatrics. Even when Olbermann was describing in graphic detail the experience of being with his father as he was dying, going on to use (exploit?) that no-doubt very genuine personal suffering to make a point about healthcare reform, he did not break down in probably-fake tears like Beck tends to. Beck also tends towards an astounding level of hyperbole in his rhetoric and his epithets that Olbermann in his worst excesses could never touch.
Olbermann also seems to be aware of the danger of his theatrics; he basically said as much in an interview with Bill Moyers. Beck does not seem to be aware that he's being theatrical at all.

As for Bill Maher, I just don't like the guy, period. He rubs me the wrong way. Some of his positions are okay, but his anti-vaccination and anti-medical rhetoric in particular pisses me off. It's completely unscientific, and it's the last thing we need right now.
  •  

cynthialee

I watch at least 20 hours a week of Fox news if not more. Same with MSNBC. Yes they are both vitriolic and over the top but I can say with certainty that the left gave GW a hell of a lot more of a length of rope to hang himself with than the right did with Obama.
Before the election votes had been confirmed they were preaching doom and gloom on Fox. I know I watch the vile thing so I know when the right moves and trys to foment rebelion. Same with MSNBC.
The issue is really simple. I am not not keen on being subjected to laws that are only backed up by scripture. The right has repeatedly insisted that they are they party of god and they alone are the representatives of family values. They seek to put us in the closet permantly or worse.
I know the left is also basicaly evil but they at least are the lessor of 2 evils. I havent heard very many liberal canadates publicly makeing anti LGBT policies part of their platform.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

Dana Lane

Quote from: Laura Hope on April 25, 2010, 02:25:37 PM
Just for the record - the folks who you just described as stupid? they think you are stupid too.

How are we better off if we divide up into camps of grade schoolers saying "You're stupid!" - "No YOU are!"

By the way - let's just drag it out into the open: i don't egree with EVERY point Beck makes, and i certainly understand not having much tolerance for his theatrical delivery but....

He's right FAAAAAAR more often than he's wrong - the spelling of "oligarch" aside.

So, ya know, go ahead and file me in the "stupid" folks you feel sorry for.
Before I reply to this - let's hear your review of Bill Mahr, Keith Olberman, Michael Moore, Jenine Garafalono et al.

If you don't like over-the-top, hyperbolic, theatrical mugging rhetoric...i assume you don't like it across the board, right?


Post Merge: April 25, 2010, 12:29:16 PM
did you have similar sentiments about the rhetoric directed at George Bush?

Were MoveOn and MSNBC and so many others "fanning the flames of civil war"?Again - like the left "calmed down and let the Right govern" for the last eight years before the current administration?I do to - nothing, except tons of media attention about those poor oppressed people voicing their outrage at oppressive government.


Post Merge: April 25, 2010, 01:30:25 PM

By the way - isn't it marvelous how VERY few of the folks here can stop breathing out fire at Fox long enough to voice ANY disapproval of the policies described (and not by Fox) in the OP?

Nice DD&B folks.

Laura, did you watch that video posted in this thread? My statement was only for this single video. And yes, anyone who bought that is stupid.That video is indefensible.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
  •  

Tammy Hope

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 25, 2010, 03:14:47 PM
Laura, the increasing theatricality of political discourse does concern me across the board, yes. There is also some dumbing down on the left and center-left as well as on the right, best represented perhaps by Michael Moore. Thank you for calling me out on that.
There is also some rhetoric of fear being used by folks like Moore and Olbermann, although Olbermann is an interesting animal - sensational and somewhat fear-based without necessarily being dumbed down. His facts tend to be solid and his analysis is decent, etc. - it's just delivered in a very theatrical and hyperbolic fashion.
This is EXACTLY how I would describe Beck with the exception that Olberman's presentation is over dramatic while Beck's is over comedic.

In some ways, Beck is more comperable to John Stewart than Olberman.
Quote
Like all such dramatic shows, his show tends to pick up on a lot of less-than-serious stories and portray them as more serious than they are, and also to inject perfectly silly and trivial content into blocks of serious discussion, a sort of Shakespearean populist comic relief move. I also think that his recent habit of reading James Thurber on air, while enjoyable and a great big slap in the face of trash TV, looks a bit silly. It would make a lot more aesthetic/psychological sense if someone quiet like Bill Moyers were doing it.

Olbermann is clearly literate and decently informed, however, and not prone to conspiracy theories and wildly fudging facts. Glenn Beck is none of those things.
If you go to factcheck.org and search "Glenn Beck" you get a VERY short list of things he has specifically stated (as opposed to hit where an erroneous fact is mentioned by someone else in something where Beck's name is also mentioned which caused the hit) which they found to be in error.

As for conspiracy theories, the left routinely claims Beck was pimping the "camps" theory when, in fact, Beck specifically debunked the claim on the air when no one else was doing so.

Now, does he in fact believe that Obama's inner circle has a blan to radically shift the nature of our government to the left towards European style socialism?

Yeah.

The thing is - it's not a nutty theory when that's exactly true.

Now, someone wnats to argue that this is a GOOD thing? fine by me. That's just a difference of political opinion. but those who deny that people like Cass Sunstien and Van Jones and Valarie Jarrett more other names than is worth mentioning have that goal in mind and want to paint Beck as a loon for pointing it out? That's just intellectually dishonest.

If a left winger comes out and says, for instance, "George Bush wanted to pack the court with judges who'd overturn Roe" - i wouldn't insist they were conspiracy nuts - that's TRUE.

Just oppose it on philosophical grounds. Think Beck is wrong on the political philosophy he favors? GREAT!!! That's completely different than trying to deny the things he points out are true when they self evidently are.
Quote
It is not merely that he is shouting; he seems to have abandoned fact-checking and any sort of real analysis in the process.
The funny thing about "facts" is that a lot of what people CALL facts are really opinions. most of the time when folks rip on Beck, they rip on his presentation and his opinion. Again, a non-partisan source doesn't have a long list of FACTS he got wrong. (And no Media Matters or HuffPost are not impartial sources).

And very often (this is true right or left) most of the time when someone cites facts a speaker got wrong, what they are citing is trivialities that take nothing away from the overall point being made.
Quote
He is channeling the fear and anxiety of a certain part of the nation's populace, and I understand that; however, he would do well to base his fear and anxiety on an informed analysis of the situation, rather than on conspiracies, easily disprovable claims and wildly emotional antics.
Fear is not a bad thing when there's something to be afraid of. Even the most responsible of thinkiers occasionally said "be afraid of this"
Quote
Beck is also unique in the incredible volume and tenor of his theatrics. Even when Olbermann was describing in graphic detail the experience of being with his father as he was dying, going on to use (exploit?) that no-doubt very genuine personal suffering to make a point about healthcare reform, he did not break down in probably-fake tears like Beck tends to.
I'd argue that the difference is not volume so much as tenor - Beck's hyperbole is more a smary, smart-aleky sarcastic style...Olberman's is more an outraged, angry, even bitter presentation.

One raises his voice more than the other? Perhaps. But not that relevant.
Quote
Beck also tends towards an astounding level of hyperbole in his rhetoric and his epithets that Olbermann in his worst excesses could never touch.
Like calling someone his pissed at "The Worst Person in the World"?

Like this, for instance:




Feel free to cite me an example of Beck ripping anyone like that.
Quote
Olbermann also seems to be aware of the danger of his theatrics; he basically said as much in an interview with Bill Moyers. Beck does not seem to be aware that he's being theatrical at all.
You apparently have never read or watched ANY interview in which Beck has spoken of himself or his style, otherwise you'd know better. I won't comment on Olbermann's admission because I will tell you up front that if Olbermann isn't talking about baseball, I can't endure him that long. Whatever he's said of his own self awareness I'll take your word for.

All that said, I think Olberman is FAR worse than Beck on the things Beck takes criticism for. If Olberman were a right winger he'd be burned in effigy.

The right wing equivalent of Olbermann, if there is one, is Michael Savage (whom I despise)

Beck is, in very many ways, the right wing version of John Stewart, with the modifier that Stewart uses right wing politics to get humor, and Beck uses humor (often) to address left wing politics. There ultimate bottom line is slightly different but the synergy between entertaining and informing is very similar, IMO (and I enjoy the work of both men)

One other thing, most of what most left-of-center folks who do not, in fact, watch Beck know of him is what your preferred media source refer you to which is the most extreme sampling of the man's work (this is true of Limbaugh as well).

I have seen Beck take a full hour (usually at least once a week) and sit down with ONE person, often on a non-political subject, and do a quiet, thoughtful, informative, insightful interview that would compare very well with anything that Charlie Rose or Bill Moyers or any of the "big name" interviewers has ever done (and completely embarrass  clown like Larry King)

the one with Jon Huntsman about the Huntsman Cancer Centers stands ot in my memory.

Thing is, you'll never see THAT episode referanced in the left wing media. I'll bet a year's salary, if i had one, that 80% of those who most loath Beck have no idea such interviews even exist.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
  •  

inoutallabout

American civilians will never have the intel, nor the responsibility, that agents within the CIA, and special forces, contend with on a daily basis.  Given this fact, American civilians will never have any justifiable backing to judge actions of the decisions made by these individuals.

It's entirely inappropriate to attempt to audit something you know absolutely nothing of.

So don't.
  •  

LordKAT

Quote from: inoutallabout on April 25, 2010, 09:47:36 PM
American civilians will never have the intel, nor the responsibility, that agents within the CIA, and special forces, contend with on a daily basis.  Given this fact, American civilians will never have any justifiable backing to judge actions of the decisions made by these individuals.

It's entirely inappropriate to attempt to audit something you know absolutely nothing of.

So don't.

So rape or murder is OK depending on circumstances?

What makes them any better judge of circumstances?
  •  

PanoramaIsland

Scott brown is racist, sexist, homophobic, a Tea Party sympathizer, etc. The only one I don't know anything about is the "nude model" part, which is probably just a hyperbolic representation of something I've never heard of.

Comparing Michael Savage to Olbermann is preposterous. Savage is an utter lunatic. He talks about a "homosexual Mafia," and how the government is being overtaken by this vast Communist conspiracy. His solution to the "illegal immigration problem?" Kill 'em all! Muslims? Kill 'em! Kids with autism? They just need a real, manly father to tell 'em what's what.

But seriously, Scott Brown is nuts. Really, really nuts, and really, really bigoted. He's just a really disgusting guy.

Re: FEMA camps, Glenn Beck was for the conspiracy theory before he was against it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izjfdfDHjWQ&feature=related#

All of the people you mentioned Glenn Beck "uncovering" were the targets of conspiracy theory smears.

Obama is a centrist. I say this as someone with friends who are real, live, breathing socialists, communists and anarchists - not "socialists" in the sense of "capitalism with a human face" welfare state social democracy like in Europe, but actual socialists - believers in workers owning the means of production, in the lines of Eugene Debs and Big Bill Haywood. Glenn Beck and his cohort do not know the first thing about radical leftism. They use the words "socialist," "communist" and "Marxist" interchangably, as though all socialists are communists and all communists are Marxists (as opposed to, say, Luxemburgists), and never mention anarchists, because they've never even heard of them. The irony here is, of course, that there's actually a considerably larger popular anarchist movement in America than there is a communist movement. I know anarchists as well as people in Communist Party USA, Socialist Workers Party, Party for Socialism and Liberation and so on, and they will all attest to this.

Beck needs to read his history, gain an understanding of Das Kapital, read about the Bolshevik-Menshevik split and the Trotsky-Lenin split after that, learn about the anarchist revolutions that were crused by Bolshevik communists. He should read up on the rise of reformism and groups like the Fabian Society in Britain, and how heatedly such groups were denounced, to the point where Stalin, megalomaniac that he was, had reformists sent to the GULAG camps or killed. "Reformist" is still a swear word amongst Marxists. A friend of mine who is a sort of Zizekian neo-Marxist, hardly a dogmatist, got frustrated with me in political conversation recently and called me "worse than a reformist." And by his lights, I am, of course - he's right.

So consider this: consider that those cursed "reformist" socialists are quite considerably to the left of the most leftist European governments. Consider then that the largest hopes that conventional left liberals had re: things like health reform have been largely dashed. Real universal health care? Forget about it. Instead, we get a bill that mimics something that was passed by Mitt Romney.

Obama is a centrist. His philosophy is Third Way, like that of Clinton; his economic policies, especially internationally, have significant neoliberal (free market) qualities. That he is willing to reinstate some small measure of the financial regulation we have had in the past is nice, but it hardly makes him a "socialist."

I've watched a fair bit of Beck, as well as other programs I find despicable - 700 Club, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc. Know thine enemy.

The bottom line is that Glenn Beck does not even know what Communism is. What he is accusing Obama of is not European-style "socialism" - capitalism with regulation and a relatively large welfare state - but communism, Marxism. Of course, that's ridiculous; if that were the case, (a) he'd be a bizarre sort of Marxist-reformist-Blanquist, atttempting an election-cum-coup which sparks revolutionary change on the behalf of the workers from the inside, and (b) he'd be nationalizing absolutely everything and treating the opposition as an enemy to be crushed with military force, instead of trying to be bipartisan at enormous costs and passing very, very weak reforms.

Also, if Obama's a Marxist, where's his revolutionary working-class movement? I don't mean the popular movement that got him elected, I mean a revolutionary movement - an armed movement of working-class agitators. The Russian Revolution was not an election, it was, you know, a revolution. A massive, violent conflict.

Proletariat and vanguards with guns.

Glenn Beck is boxing at shadows. He's nuts. All of his theories are sheer conspiracy, no different than Joseph McCarthy or the John Birch Society were promoting during the Red Scare.

I'm sorry to say that I have very little respect for anyone who takes that man as anything more than a sad, deranged fool. It really is not about differences in policy or political philosophy; like I said, I'd have no problem with someone the likes of Francis Fukuyama, Ron Paul or William F. Buckley (who did have a TV show, Firing Line, for many years).
Those guys, IMO, are/were wrong, but they're not nuts. There's being conservative, and then there's being nuts. It's perfectly possible to be deeply conservative and quite smart; this is not about conservatives. This is about Glenn Beck and his ilk: the populist right-wing cafeteria libertarian conspiracy theorists.


I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!
  •  

Dana Lane

I'm sorry but factcheck.org doesn't have time to keep up with all of Glenn Beck's nonsense.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
  •  

LordKAT

  •  

PanoramaIsland

Yep.
The great thing is that the "precious bodily fluids" conspiracy is actually a real and enduring conspiracy theory that has even managed to survive the Cold War - it wasn't invented for the film. The John Birch Society liked to squawk about such things, back in the day.
  •  

Dana Lane

Quote from: Dana Lane on April 26, 2010, 02:53:33 AM
I'm sorry but factcheck.org doesn't have time to keep up with all of Glenn Beck's nonsense.

Most of its content consists of rebuttals to what it considers inaccurate, misleading, or false claims by politicians. FactCheck has also targeted misleading claims from various partisan groups.
============
Former TS Separatist who feels deep regret
http://www.transadvocate.com/category/dana-taylor
  •  

Tammy Hope

^^
So why have the referances to things Beck got wrong at all, if he's not there job?

QuoteObama is a centrist

And thus the basic divide.

As Spock told McCoy about the afterlife, no conversation is possible without a common frame of referance.

On the world political stage, Obama is a centrist - on the American political spectrum, he's anything but.

Does that make him the next Che ready to lead an armed uprising? No. (though why would he when he's already in poser?)

But he doesn't have to be that to be well to the political left of most of the population, and to favor governmental actions and institutions and philosophies that are well to the left of the nominal American governmental model.

(albeit, he is simply building on the foundation FDR laid, so it's not like his chosen direction is unprecedented - just further down the same road)


All that said, I don't begrudge him his views, or the right to act (within the bounds of political propriety) on them - elections have consequences.

But the idea that he is - on the U.S. political spectrum - a centrist is so at odds with the obvious facts, IMO, that there's really no point in us even discussing it because we clearly don't start with enough basic assumptions in common for the discussion to accomplish anything.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
  •  

SarahFaceDoom

Beck is more like a for real version of Stephen Colbert.

Post Merge: April 27, 2010, 03:40:05 AM

Oh and Obama is nowhere near as liberal as FDR was.  FDR wanted universal single payer healthcare, which Obama has never advocated for.  FDR argued for a new worker's bill of rights as well.  FDR was far and away the most liberal president we've ever had.

And not for nothing but he's the man responsible for for turning the US into a great world superpower.  I'd say Ronald Reagan, Bush II, and Clinton pretty much did their damndest to dismantle his work.
  •  

PanoramaIsland

I didn't say "On the US political spectrum, he's a centrist." I said that he's a centrist on the world political spectrum - the one that stretches from fascist corporatist dictatorships and free market monarchies to left-communist (yes, there's such thing as a non-left communist) and anarchist revolutionary states. That political spectrum - the one on which the entire first world spans from center-left to center-right, with Western Europe being often left of center and America often right of center.

I still think, though, that you're mis-characterizing Barack Obama. He is not only not a leftist on the world stage, he's not a leftist on the American stage, either. Hear me out here.

Here are a few of the many ways in which Barack Obama is not the lefty you make him out to be:
-Guantanamo is still open, and don't ask him about Bagram
-He's ordered a hit on a US citizen (something the left is quite angry about)
-He's keeping us heavily militarily engaged in the Middle East
-In 2006, he voted to reauthorize the USA PATRIOT Act
-He's kept the radical and unprecedented expansions of Presidential power enacted by President Bush
-He's exploring the possibility of oil drilling in the Gulf of New Mexico
-He's pro-nuclear power
-Gay marriage? He's sort of "neither for it nor against it," waffles and takes a noncommital stance. Doesn't really want to talk about it.
-The healthcare bill he ended up championing was like a weakened version of Mitt Romney's healthcare plan for his state
-Although more critical of Israeli actions than Bush, he's still totally 100% a Zionist, and very committed to continuing our significant aid dollars to fund the Israeli military
-His first Supreme Court appointment, Sonia Sotomayor, was a bit more conservative than the justice she replaced. It is likely that his replacement for John Paul Stevens will be to the right of Stevens, as well, moving the court further to the right
-He passed a tax cut on 97% of the populace, in keeping with campaign promises
-When he did "bailout" measures, he didn't nationalize those banks and companies, or even really put much legal restriction on how they spent the money; remember that much of the left opposed the bailouts.
-His global warming legiislation, which was pretty weak-kneed to begin with, seems to have withered and died
-His cabinet is largely Clinton people
-He, like any winning candidate, is awash in corporate money
I could go on.

The left in American politics is not Barack Obama. He came from the center-left, and moved to the center. Nancy Pelosi? Yes, she's on the left. Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich? Well, of course. But America doesn't have much in the way of major leftist politicians; we've got a few really lefty ones, like Kucinich and Sanders, and then we've got the Progressive Caucus folks, like Pelosi. For context, consider that France, Japan, South Africa, India, Italy and other first world and major developing nations all have minority communist parties which hold a dedicated, small percentage of the vote, often hold a couple seats in the parliament, and regularly field also-ran and perennial candidates.

We don't have any such minority communist party in the US - not even here in the San Francisco Bay Area does any of the communist parties have any support. The Green Party is a pretty big deal, unsurprisingly, but the candidates they field aren't generally any further left than the leftiest Democrats in congress. Think about that.

For that matter, our far right is, what, Timothy McVeigh, the Huttaree Militia, the Ku Klux Klan? Britain has the British National Party; France has the Front National, the National Front. Both are far-right ultra-nationalist parties. The BNP restricts its membership to whites only; the BNP and FN leaders have both been caught on tape multiple times trivializing or playing down the Holocaust and trying to justify war crimes. Both parties are basically founded on racism and fear of the Other: women, the Scary Communists, people of color, Muslims, the Scary Gays (trans people included in the group, of course), and especially immigrants. The BNP especially are essentially fascists - they have positions remarkably in line with fascist thought. Nick Griffin, the BNP leader, has given talks to Ku Klux Klan organizations, posed with David Duke for photos.

The BNP has two seats in the European Parliament. They've got one of the 25 seats of the London Assembly. Again, think about that.

I think any characterization of contemporary American institutional politics as extreme in any direction is generally unjustified, and when there is any institutional - not underground/countercultural - extremity, it's generally right-wing, as in the Red Scare. Oh, sure, we've had our movements on both left and right, but the heyday of Eugene Debs and the Socialist Party was what, in the Great Depression? The heyday of the New Left and the 20th century KKK were both in the civil rights era. That's a long time ago.

Yeah, I know communists and anarchists. That's because I'm a queer Jewish artist and punk rocker in San Francisco. People like me attract far-leftists like flies to honey; my friends are not a representative sample of the American left (or the San Francisco left) by a long shot.

Running around saying that America's being taken over by socialists is ridiculous. It is disingenuous, it is silly, and it is simply wrong. Period.




And yeah, FDR was way more liberal than Barack Obama, and was generally pretty great. Not perfect - he signed Executive Order 9066, authorizing the Japanese-American detention camps - but pretty great.
  •