Quote from: Rhalkos on April 27, 2010, 04:23:50 AM
And need to stop subscribing to such conservative stereotypes of body image.
I always find it hilarious when someone is willing to heavily mutilate/modify their genitals, yet they balk at a metal ring through a bit of flesh.

Mutilate? Modify?  GRS is in no way a trendy body modification and by far a mutilation--it is a necessity.  Some people feel ok to socialize and date with their inappropriate parts, I'm one of those who can't.  You try living in that solitary hell for 15 years.

Oh, yeah, because genital surgery totally isn't a body mod.  It's just, you know, a modification. Of the body. For reasons of personal identity. and psychological well-being.

Oh, and thanks for dismissing something that several of my best friends have dedicated their lives to as "trendy."

Look, I understand that genital surgery is burningly important for you, and that's valid; I honor you for it. It does not, however, give you a special high horse to sit up upon, looking down your nose at all the other people who modify their bodies because they're just shallow trendwhores and you have a GID diagnosis.

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 27, 2010, 08:02:28 AM
Oh, yeah, because genital surgery totally isn't a body mod.  It's just, you know, a modification. Of the body. For reasons of personal identity. and psychological well-being.

Oh, and thanks for dismissing something that several of my best friends have dedicated their lives to as "trendy."

Look, I understand that genital surgery is burningly important for you, and that's valid; I honor you for it. It does not, however, give you a special high horse to sit up upon, looking down your nose at all the other people who modify their bodies because they're just shallow trendwhores and you have a GID diagnosis.

I didn't dismiss anything nor do I have anything against anyone who wishes to decorate their bodies with tattoos or piercings.  There was a time when tattoos held an exotic mystique--when only a certain segment of society wore them.  There was a wow factor when you went down on a woman to discover she had a discreet little tattoo of a rose or a heart near her stuff.  Those are the days when tattoos were actually cool.  Today everyone has one, two or more.  They are in your face.  10, 11, 12 year olds are getting them.  How is this not a trend?

As for piercings--same thing.  They were once and still are used as a religious and cultural practice of many South American and African tribes.  I used to marvel at the National Geographic images that depicted these people.  Western society does not engage in body piercing for any of those reasons--ergo, a trend, and that is ok by me if you want to engage in it.  I'm not holding anything against you for doing so, so please don't assume that I am.  The only thing I disagree with is how you lumped GRS into the same modification category as piercing and tattoos.  It is not even in the same ball park, it is a necessity for many of us.  I don't hear of too many people killing themselves over not being able to get a tattoo or piercing.

I think the stumbling point that we won't get past here is that by and large piercings and tattoos are viewed purely as a cosmetic thing and people who are not into them will never see them as anything more. I find PanoramaIslands point that it can be a form of self expression in the same way that SRS is to be quite valid however it is obvious that it is of a lower magnitude in the case of the original topic - and the issue is a bit confused by the fact that some people simply do not have a particular emotional attachment to their bling, especially in the case of a genital piercing where it might be considered purely for the stimulation benefits.

There's definitely a widely held view that SRS is purely a cosmetic procedure for people who just want to have a better sex life, We shouldn't forget that to the world at large the only thing that makes a transsexual is the operation, they don't know or care about the emotional issues/hormones/therapy blah blah.

I'm a minor enthusiast, I'd have more piercings if I could retain my job (I had to give up a couple) and I have scarification plans. I remember getting my first one (eyebrow) and I can't explain it but it felt like I was more on the way to finding my personality and with each one thereafter I found they made me very happy (I've even gone to get a piercing specifically to cheer up). I lost a lot of self confidence when I was ordered to remove two anchors from my temple, a labret and nose ring for work and it wasn't just because I thought I looked worse (more male) without them, it's because they are part of my identity, as much as a vagina will be when I can afford it.

...Well, maybe not quite as much but do you see the point I'm trying to make?

I guess I'm just trying to put some perspective on PanoramaIslands argument without attacking the lack of opposition (i.e, Chill people...).

Quote from: Imadique on April 27, 2010, 08:50:27 AM


There's definitely a widely held view that SRS is purely a cosmetic procedure for people who just want to have a better sex life

To some of us--a sex life, period.

Quote from: Kristyn on April 27, 2010, 08:58:18 AM
To some of us--a sex life, period.

Me included but it's not the point. The point is that people who have no need for SRS or inside knowledge of a trans existence could and do very easily write it off as a cosmetic procedure that you don't need.

If it has no religious or spiritual significance (and in the white West it doesn't), or any cultural meaning of belonging (Hell's Angels, Navy SEALS, and a very few others), then its pretty much relegated to a fashion statement.  That's not good, or bad, it just is what kind of statement it is.  They have come and gone several times with various American subcultures, but when I see women in suburban malls climbing into their Lexus SUV, and they have some tattoo, or cute little facial piercing, well I'm doubting the real 'rebel' or 'outcast' sense of it. 

The modern primitive movement - which was really a Fin de siècle kind of thing in the 90s - what with the slow economic collapse where the odds of you winding up living out of a shopping cart under a bridge went up, well it got less amusing, less enlightening, in a hurry.

So, there is nothing wrong with something being a fashion, or a trend - it's just not anything much more than that either.

Quote from: tekla on April 27, 2010, 09:57:50 AM
If it has no religious or spiritual significance (and in the white West it doesn't), or any cultural meaning of belonging (Hell's Angels, Navy SEALS, and a very few others), then its pretty much relegated to a fashion statement.  That's not good, or bad, it just is what kind of statement it is.  They have come and gone several times with various American subcultures, but when I see women in suburban malls climbing into their Lexus SUV, and they have some tattoo, or cute little facial piercing, well I'm doubting the real 'rebel' or 'outcast' sense of it. 

The modern primitive movement - which was really a Fin de siècle kind of thing in the 90s - what with the slow economic collapse where the odds of you winding up living out of a shopping cart under a bridge went up, well it got less amusing, less enlightening, in a hurry.

So, there is nothing wrong with something being a fashion, or a trend - it's just not anything much more than that either.

You summed it up perfectly Tekla, but you forgot to add how old it is all becoming

Well, it was young, fresh and oh so avant-garde back when my little Miss in the Lexus SUV out there in front of Macy's and Nordstrom's there in Walnut Creek had it done.  Why, she was in the most rebellious and radical sorority that they had at her private college.  They were wildin' back in the day, them Delta Gamma girls were.  Hotbed of radicalism I tell 'ya.

And hey, perhaps they were.  But now?
Excess ain't rebellion
if you're buying what they're sellin'

It's a pop culture deal, that manufactured rebellion, the hip as commodity, the marketing and consumption of cool and it comes off that way in the end - you know pop-cultureish all kind of vapid and lacking mass.   

And I have a strong stench around that thought going back to the 60s and the consumption of cool.  I also watched as pretty much a constant throughout my life that the people who were really out there, the ones who really, really were rebels, who were bold new thinkers, who were going about life in a new and different way, creating what no one had created before... those people?  You couldn't pick them out from any bunch of people at a hardware store.

I'm if not leery, then I'm certainty weary of consumerism masquerading as some sort of bold personal statement.  It's not.  It's just buying stuff.  You bought tattoos instead of the Wedgwood China Set at Macy's.  That's all, its not a personal statement to the world (anymore than buying the Wedgwood is), its merely a consumer choice.

I mean, if it makes you happy and all, mazal tov!  Live long and prosper and all that, which is pretty much exactly what I'd say to the Wedgwood buyer.  But I  don't see any huge differences between the two acts.

Hell, I can get a tattoo in (or very close to) most of the big malls here, and I can find body modification jewelery right there at the mall at Hot Topic, and Claire's, and exactly how hip are the items in Claire's anyway?  Or Hot Topic for that matter. 

But me, I'm not really much of a shopper, and I'm very cheap, so I'll just wait till I can get rebellion at the outlet mall at greatly reduced rates!

Alright!  Everybody settle down!

We have drifted WAY off topic here and things are getting too noisy.

I'm surprised that this topic isn't locked yet.  But I will call for a lock.  This exchange is running up against TOS issues. 

We take issue with ideas, not people.  And please don't respond with "But I'm not picking a fight..."

just quite down and move on to something else.

-Sandy

Quote from: Sandy on April 27, 2010, 12:18:20 PM
Alright!  Everybody settle down!

We have drifted WAY off topic here and things are getting too noisy.

I'm surprised that this topic isn't locked yet.  But I will call for a lock.  This exchange is running up against TOS issues. 

We take issue with ideas, not people.  And please don't respond with "But I'm not picking a fight..."

just quite down and move on to something else.

-Sandy

Spoken like a true leader.  Thank you Sandy.  I have to admit, though, that Teklas last comment was quite humorous.   Thanks Tek for putting a smile on my face

I like my piercings and tattoos, they are an important part of my identity...does that make me a rebel? Probably not as much as being openly trans and going through transition does...do they make me happy? Yes, very much so.

As for the consumption of cool, surely that's a moot point, in a capitalist society everything is a commodity. We're all bought and sold at the end of the day.

See I'm not sure everything is a commodity, at least in the beginnings - but it takes a lot of effort to find that stuff as it's not particularly advertised, as there is no money to be made on it yet or anything.  It tends to be stuff that you either have to be, or be at, and not necessarily buy.

But by the time that you can say 'well me and tens of millions of other people buy this as a sign of our individuality' well, that gets harder and harder to wrap your mind - or at least my mind - around.

Grumble... I come back to this thread and again I find a bunch of people completely dismissing the emotional/spiritual/psychological value and importance of body modification, calling it a "trend," yadda ya, with just one, perfectly cogent and well-argued post in my defense (thank you for that!).

Folks, I know and acknowledge that there are stupid people out there who go out and get meaningless, silly mods just for the hell of it or to be "cool." Lots and lots of them.

That's most people's experience with body mods, which is unfortunate - most people do not put nearly enough thought into the process - but hey, that's life. Not everyone is like that, though. Some people really do think that body modifications can be very beautiful and very personally meaningful, and I'm one of them.
Some people find themselves partially through body modification.

That is a valid experience, not a trend and not a fashion. If more people are getting meaningful and thoughtful mods, it's because they're more acceptable now than they used to be.

Getting a piercing is not on the same level with getting genital surgery; I never said it was. But genital surgery is body modification just the same; it is simply of a higher level of severity, meaning, and emotional need than most other body mods could ever claim to.


Tekla, say what you will about the modern primitive movement, but Fakir Musafar is a sweetheart and the best piercer I've ever had.

Also, by your argument, woudn't Thomas Pynchon and James Joyce novels just be consumption, too, since, you know, you bought them? You're completely glossing over a person's individual emotional engagement with what they're (gasp!) purchasing.
Might I point out that you purchase the stuff you need to live your swingin' life as a sound engineer, which i can tell from what you've said previously here on Susan's holds very real meaning and satisfaction for you and seems to pretty much define your life?
Just sayin'.

Anyhow, I think I've said my piece. Sorry for any flaminess in previous posts.

Lock away.

Ok, the original point of the thread as brought up by paulas1947, was whether or not anyone has had any labia piercings.

And if so, how did it go?

Poor paulas1947 is probably in PTSD now (who has only posted this one question), and only wants a simple question answered.

So, HAS anyone had labia piercings?  Let's just keep it at that.

-Sandy(I have not)

Quote from: Sandy on April 27, 2010, 02:30:00 PM
Ok, the original point of the thread as brought up by paulas1947, was whether or not anyone has had any labia piercings.

And if so, how did it go?

Poor paulas1947 is probably in PTSD now (who has only posted this one question), and only wants a simple question answered.

So, HAS anyone had labia piercings?  Let's just keep it at that.

-Sandy(I have not)

Perhaps it has something to do with tomorrows full moon.

Rhalkos, I think we're trying to move away from that argument. Thanks for the support, anyhow...

Quote from: tekla on April 27, 2010, 01:32:51 PM
See I'm not sure everything is a commodity, at least in the beginnings

I really, really, really want to go off track and talk about trends in media and society from a media studies point of view...but I'm not sure it'd go down to well. hehe

Quote from: SarahR on April 26, 2010, 11:23:26 PM
Having just had SRS with Dr. Brassard, I can tell you that he is thourough in removing the hairs during surgery. I haven't noticed any hair issues yet.

~Sarah

Youll probably notice some hairs inside grow within time, but they will be next to none and can only be seen when opened with those plyer things

Quote from: jessica216 on April 26, 2010, 09:48:55 PM
I'm so curious about the hair issue down there. not sure if it is brought up as a topic before. Dr Brassard's info says no need to have any hair removal prior to surgery. what are girls experience on the subject? I just don't want hair growing out of the inside of my vagina!!

This is a subject that's not discussed very often but probably should be.  I know for a fact that some of Dr. Brassards patients do experience hair growth after SRS.  It's not a huge amount and it's not a deal breaker in my opinion (I'll still go to Dr. Brassard) but it does happen, at least occasionally.  My partner experienced it after her SRS with Dr. Brassard and I've heard from a few others who have admitted it happening.  Do I think it's widespread? No, but it is a possibility.  Compared to the alternative of being zapped down there I'll take that chance.