I know, I know, this is impossible. Well, it might not be, who's to know until someone actually tries it? Right, so I'm Wicca-Buddhist, and I hear all the time that I should transition using spells because since I feel male my magic will allow me to transition and I can't help but be cynical. The ingredients are near impossible to find and you have to collect them during the Winter, usually (such as preparing to plant). Or, at least, the ones in my spell books use things like this. It would make sense for it to be difficult, but honestly, here!

To add to this belief that I WANT to believe is a  Celtic magic store on eBay is shelling off "Transgender Hormone Spell Rings," for forty dollars a whack. And I may sound like an idiot, but bear with me, if it is true, why hasn't anyone discovered and spread the word? Now, obviously, there's 99.999% chance this is false. This COULD be true and possible because the ring claims to increase estrogen and males and testosterone in females. Just the fact it says that it will can give the mind power to actually do such things! Men who are firmly in the belief they are women or act feminine for years begin to develop small breasts, for example.

This doesn't make the 'breasts will reduce in size and the vagina will form into a penis' anymore plausible, though. (And I hope to god whoever is selling these actually believes it works and not selling false dreams on purpose! I wouldn't be surprised, people take advantage of transsexuals and Pagans, why stop at the combination of the two?)

What are you opinions on transition using magic, mental, or spiritual means? I'm curious.

I remember reading somewhere that the Buddha is supposed to have said that if people want something in return for enlightenment, they are charlatans.

I don't think the Celts would have known too much about hormones, myself. 

As a means to achieve physical transformation no. Sadly the way the athe world works at the moment that just isn't going to happen. yes some harbs can HELP hormones to work, but they aren't really a full substitute for them However some of the rituals and the like do have a place in helping you get into the mind and soul set.

Let me explain that a bit...

If you are like me, you will have been born feeling a particular way. You may or may not have found ways of expressing it in your childhood. I did, but some don't or can't. So you believe yourself to be male (or female in my case) and yet there is initially an inconvenient truth that your body does not conform. So you go off and have various transformational surgeries and treatements. Only problem is that afterwards you can not lose the knowledge of how you were born. It doesn't matter how many surgeries you have or what you do that will still be there in your memory...

And that is why some transfolk are never really happy and never fully pass, becuase they can not get to tbe place where that inconvennient memory can be fully silenced and no longer be a part of their thinking. That little nagging doubt means that they always have to be "making a point" *actively* being male or female - and that takes energy - and also people spot it a mile off and then start wondering why this person is putting in so much effort to be unequivocal about their gender. Paradoxically what most people don't get is that the harder you *try* the more likely you are to fail. The trick is to become able to be *passively* male or female - that is you reach a point where you do not have to do anything, you just ARE...

That is where these rituals can and do help. I now KNOW my mind and soul to be female. There is NO doubt of that in any pore of my body. So confident am I of this fact that I have actually been set free to be comfortable being male or female - Paradoxically as well as being female I find that I am now able to be the "boy" that I never was when I physically was one - because I know that how I look or act doesn't change the fact that *I* just am inescapably female.

That may sound weird - i'm not implying that I have any doubts about my gender, or indeed my decision in having irreversible surgery, I would have done that anyway. It's just that the rituals can take you to a point where being what you are becomes so effortless and inevitable that you just are it anyway.

I make very little effort to be particularly feminine - mostly I can't be bothered with makeup, nine time out of ten I'm wearing trousers of jeans, and the only body modifications I've ever had were HRT and full SRS. I make no particular effort to do particular things or avoid particular things based on gender norms, I just do what I want. That can be girly things, and then I can be getting oily fixing up a car with the boys too!

And yet I honestly can't recall the last time anyone questioned my gender.

I believe the rituals really did help me achieve that point. So yes they have a place - but they aren't the whole picture, and certainly don't go buying expensive rip off charms and bracelets - the value in a ritual comes from the preforming of it.

Magick is not something which can be purchased over the counter, because a lot of it comes form you, and the harnessing of your own intent!

(yes I too am a witch - not a very good one - but I am, and I'm a real shapeshifter too.)

Blessed be

Jenny x.

If anything like that worked, we wouldn't be spending so much on hormones and surgery.

Sorry, but it's all BS. They're preying on the desperate, the broke, and those young people without family support.

Physical transition using mental, "magic" or "spiritual" means? I don't believe a word of it. Any changes I think are the placebo effect.

Quote from: Teknoir on April 29, 2010, 04:53:37 AM
If anything like that worked, we wouldn't be spending so much on hormones and surgery.

Sorry, but it's all BS. They're preying on the desperate, the broke, and those young people without family support.

Physical transition using mental, "magic" or "spiritual" means? I don't believe a word of it. Any changes I think are the placebo effect.

Physically yes absolutely  - I don't believe that for a moment.

But please don't discount the spiritual aspects of this - different faiths do it in different ways, I recall K8 had a particularly lovely way of doing it in her church. Witches too must be allowed to have our way of marking the change in the spiritual realm, and that is what Magickal transition is all about. IT IS NOT about the physical - or at least it isn't for anyone genuine. There are sadly a few charlatans out there who latch onto our faith and use it to con people. That is a great shame. Don't fall for them.

If you are an atheist or an agnostic fine - but please bear in mind that many of us do get genuine benefits from the purely spiritual aspects of this.

But yes just to emphasise one final time - I AM NOT TALKING about physical transformation. That I agree is complete rubbish.

I'm not Wiccan myself, but have had friends who were. And my understanding of Wiccan magic is that it doesn't directly affect the physical world, but rather the spiritual world. With magic, for instance, you might be able to affect the energy you give off, and thus the way others perceive you. But it wouldn't physically alter your body.

I think that magic can be an important part of any major life event for a Wiccan, just as meditation for a Buddhist or prayer for a Christian. But genuine magic, meditation, or prayer doesn't require you to buy anything from anyone, and anyone who's making wild promises about a product tangentially related to your religion in order to get your money is a charlatan at best.

I say all of the above as an atheist who respects the value of religion in many people's lives.

Quote from: kyril on April 29, 2010, 06:29:03 AM
I'm not Wiccan myself, but have had friends who were. And my understanding of Wiccan magic is that it doesn't directly affect the physical world, but rather the spiritual world. With magic, for instance, you might be able to affect the energy you give off, and thus the way others perceive you. But it wouldn't physically alter your body.

I think that magic can be an important part of any major life event for a Wiccan, just as meditation for a Buddhist or prayer for a Christian. But genuine magic, meditation, or prayer doesn't require you to buy anything from anyone, and anyone who's making wild promises about a product tangentially related to your religion in order to get your money is a charlatan at best.

I say all of the above as an atheist who respects the value of religion in many people's lives.

Absolutely spot on as usual Kyril! Very well explained indeed.

I wasn't going to buy it or anything, lol. I believe all magic should be performed by yourself. I don't believe in monetary gain for spells. Just something I was curious what you guys would say about

I don't think any amount of magick or prayer or fasting or anything like that will help a person to acheive physical transition.  The body just doesn't work that way.  That said, I think spiritual and mental transition is pretty important, too, and for that I believe all religious people should include an element of their religion in their transition.  Looking like a man is vital for passing in the world, and so I think we need to medically transition with approved hormones and stuff for that, but just because my mind is male doesn't mean I don't need to mentally transition, as well.  I've spent my whole life programming myself to think like a female, even if I was fighting my natural inclinations.  It'll take some time for me to undo all that conditioning.  And for that mental transition, I think prayer and reflection can go a long way.  There's also a spiritual transition.  I'm Jewish and in Judaism the role of the male and the female are pretty different.  We have different rituals and responsibilities and stuff.  To go from living as a Jewish female to a Jewish male will take awhile and I plan on incorporating prayer and ritual and ceremony into that (there's actually an offical Jewish ceremony for changing genders that I plan on going through towards the end of my transition).  So yeah, I think spiritual transitioning is really important, but I don't think it'll physically affect your body.

I am Wiccan an I am mildly amussed. ...mildly....
Use your magics to secure your place in the spirit realm and your spiritual transition.
I do believe that a spiritual transition is vital to the end product but right now it is time to focus on the mundane world and its modern potions and ungents. (HRT lol)
Keep in mind that Wicca is at its core a fertillity cult. It's magics are best suited to winning a paramour or securing a lover or ensuring a safe pregnancy, not to say other effects can not be achieved just saying. The horned one and the goddess may not be so keen on helping you out on the physical realm as one of  the eventual results of transition is complete and utter infertility.
JM2C
hugz

As one who has tried various things to alter my physical form, I can absolutely state they don't work.  They do help to release the true inner spirit and let that spirit become one with the magical realm.

Don't wast your money, spend it on the proven methods.

You can use spiritual means to affect the spiritual, but to affect the physical you'll need physical means.

Um, I'm Wiccan/Pagan but never heard of anything like this. I'm calling Bullshiz. Then again, I'm not really into doing spells yet but still...this doesn't seem right. Magic can't transition you. If it could, we'd all have dicks and balls and no chesticles and facial hair...etc...

Other parts of wicca such as meditating, coming to terms with ones innerself...all that can helpease the stress of transitioning, and make you  more comfortable with you. But it won't change your body physically.

I'm of the opinion that mind does have some effect over matter. It don't work to the point of being magical but it does have an effect.

Quote from: Devin87 on April 29, 2010, 08:53:52 AMLooking like a man is vital for passing in the world, and so I think we need to medically transition with approved hormones and stuff for that, but just because my mind is male doesn't mean I don't need to mentally transition, as well.  I've spent my whole life programming myself to think like a female, even if I was fighting my natural inclinations.  It'll take some time for me to undo all that conditioning.

Exactly. We're male but were born in a female body, so all of us have had at least some female conditioning. Our families, friends and society will force us to adapt or adhere to at least some feminine expectations. Yes, it sucks, but that's how humans are. We could never fully escape it.

Transition is not also physical but mental too. We need to get used to people calling us male pronouns, using our preferred names and being seen as a guy. We love it and it's what we want but our minds do have to adapt. I've also learned that I can remove the female actions I used to do to try to seem female because I no long have to live that sham. However that doesn't happen overnight. For me transition is teaching me I can be free but must also learn to free myself.

---

Post Merge: April 29, 2010, 04:13:54 PM

---

Quote from: Devin87 on April 29, 2010, 08:53:52 AM...there's actually an offical Jewish ceremony for changing genders that I plan on going through towards the end of my transition.

Really? That's very cool.

Quote from: rejennyrated on April 29, 2010, 05:02:46 AM
If you are an atheist or an agnostic fine - but please bear in mind that many of us do get genuine benefits from the purely spiritual aspects of this.
[/b]

Apologies if my post sounded as if it was in any way relating to your beliefs.

On rereading with context, I can understand how I may have given that impression.

I was only referring to the eBay auctions mentioned by the OP for rings and the like.

I think that the sellers inferring you can physically transform, or alter hormones through buying their "magic products" is absolutely disgusting in that they are completely false, unproven claims exploiting people's deeply cherished belief systems for a quick buck.

I might be an atheist - but false claims of this nature still really get my back up.

The psychological side of transitioning is something completely different, and I do agree that people can benefit by involving any faith or belief system they may have - I just read the topic as relating to physical transition only.

Hey no problem at all Teknoir.

and you gave the opportunity to absolutely clarify that I was talking about the spirtual aspects not the physical too - so thank you

I personally consider a persons gender (as opposed to sex/genitals, and orientation) to be a concrete part of themselves, influenced by hormones in the womb and genetic factors, which result in some point in preference on the spectrum of masculinity and femininity.

It may be an issue of having a body that feels inaccurate and requires changes physically, but ultimately, to me, cross-dressing and gender reassignment are pursuits to actualize what you already are on the inside, and using aspects of the physical to actualize that. And therefore it is by being genuine to oneself that the transformation can be realized.

If magic, or any religious means, gives one the confidence to carry out the necessary physical changes, or to be true to those changes despite prejudice or other obstacles, then in those ways I feel it can be of use.

Just as an aside, I am an atheist myself, the kind leaning more towards agnosticism (although I have always had a place in my heart for Buddhism outside its supernatural claims), so I personally would not benefit from such a thing. That is not to say though that I look down my nose at something psychosomatic. I feel it has great power, particularly trans-formative power.

---

Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 05:04:08 AM

---

Quote from: rejennyrated on April 29, 2010, 03:31:10 AM
So confident am I of this fact that I have actually been set free to be comfortable being male or female - Paradoxically as well as being female I find that I am now able to be the "boy" that I never was when I physically was one - because I know that how I look or act doesn't change the fact that *I* just am inescapably female.

I really agree with that. Everyone has aspects of the masculine and feminine in them. Gender identity to me is about defining where the majority falls inside of you and aligning your physical self to a representation of that.

One of my biggest obstacles with my own gender has been defining that for myself, and determining whether I actually want to take hormones and have the surgery, or if I merely need to give myself permission to simply be mostly masculine, or "male" in appearance, due to my preferences and feelings inside.