I really think that the bottom line regarding reading sex/gender is threat assessment; our brains are probably hardwired in certain ways that make women more likely to clock trans men (I talk a bit about trans women below). We all have basic survival equipment, but (generally speaking) women need to be vigilant about certain things that men don't, and vice versa.

In terms of survival and competition, unless he's desperate for a mate, a man doesn't lose anything by reading someone as male. And anyway, he's more likely to find a good mate through social contacts, not rape.

But we're talking about casual encounters here. If you're female, you're not a physical threat to him; if you might be male, you might be a threat. Since, in the short run, survival must take precedence over procreation, he's actually better off reading you as male in a chance meeting because you're a bigger threat to his physical well-being if you're another male. Not to mention that another male is also a threat to the first guy's access to the pool of available females.

On the other hand, in a similar casual encounter, a woman could have everything to lose if she should have read someone as male but didn't.

Some might argue that if all of this is true, why are men so threatened by trans women? I think some of that is social conditioning/homophobia, but the same survival rules apply. If he read you as female, he thinks you are not a threat and that he can not only dominate but procreate with you. If you "tricked" him, it's a double whammy. Not only can he not impregnate you, but you were a real threat that he didn't read properly.

If it's true that women are more likely than men to clock trans men, then that would explain a lot of things. Has anyone done a study to find out whether it is true?

Trans women are a different situation altogether. In the long run, it's safer for both men and women to clock a masculine-looking woman as male. I wonder if anyone has studied this as well.

On a more humorous note, one could easily argue that if men are not good at clocking trans women, it's because they're thinking with their junk instead of their brains.

I doubt any studies have been done but I'd love to see any results. This is all so fascinating and aggravating.

Im pretty sure women make a bigger deal out of clocking trans women. From my experience men just joke about it but women get really bitchy. Sometimes women Ive seen even try to stop the public and yell out things when they spot me. When I look at these women they are usually ugly. Sexy women like me but get a little nervous and men are usually stand offish but more polite. I think some men Ive seen in Business suits feel for me and cool guys never hassle me. Sometimes I like just being different and Im a real transwoman so I can feel comfortable with myself. Allthough the boys around were I live keep saying things like 'Foxy and Hubba bubba and ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- dirty slut' So its not all positive. I like being called Foxy though. Well I am kinda sexy for a Jedi. When I think about it most Jedi are sexy, except for Yoda he was ugly as. Poor little guy.

this IS fascinating. after thinking about it, the few times i've gotten "sir" lately have all been by males (which in itself is weird since i don't really attempt to pass).

it could be something my therapist suggested about my coworkers....they all call me miss (name), new girl, girly girl, lady, stupid stuff like that - she said maybe it was their way of making up for my own lack of femininity to not hurt my feelings, since most women wouldn't want to be considered male or masculine (at least in my area). probably not in radar's case, but it's an interesting thought

Quote from: DRAIN on April 03, 2010, 12:17:34 AMit could be something my therapist suggested about my coworkers....they all call me miss (name), new girl, girly girl, lady, stupid stuff like that - she said maybe it was their way of making up for my own lack of femininity to not hurt my feelings, since most women wouldn't want to be considered male or masculine (at least in my area). probably not in radar's case, but it's an interesting thought.

That's a good point too. I'm not out at work yet, but if they couldn't tell something was going on they'd have to be blind and deaf. Maybe they're emphasizing femininity to me (what's left anyway) to compensate for my masculinity. They don't mean any harm- they just don't know. Of course they may have always talked to me that way but it's becoming more and more obvious and insulting to me as time goes by.

Weeell, I think its pretty even for me. Ever since I started transition, I havent been called a girl by anyone that doesnt know me ...except for some kid I met just the other day that seems to remember me from 7 or so years back haha, I had quite an interesting easter weekend. Was almost asked out by two girls at the park!

And here's a story from today that's the opposite of before. So I was shopping and at the register the lady wanted to see my credit card and driver's license (which they've never asked for before). My credit card has my first and last name but middle initial so no outing there, but my DL has my first, middle and last name whole. My first name is gender neutral but my middle name is so feminine it's pathetic. Not only that but my DL has a female photo and a nice big F on it. So the lady looks at it for awhile (not just a glance) then says "thank you sir". Now, this is a wonderful experience for me but... what?

If I may offer my 2 cents...

The thing is, you never have a clue, in a casual encounter, what the other person's background or experience level with things are. Having dating a transman, and also very butch lesbians... when I'm interacting with someone who is female bodied, but very masculine... I honestly never know which pronouns to use. The lesbians I've been with could/ have been offended by being read as male, regardless of how masculine they are. And knowing what I do of transguys, I would never want to insult one by negating his gender because of his physical body.

Prior to knowing a transguy, I would have only used female pronouns because my experiences taught me that by doing so, especially in the situation Radar described, would be a way of showing solidarity. A way to say " I see you, and I like you that way. Screw gender norms!"

I also wanted to add, that I think what Arch said was spot on. Survival will trump mating everytime.

To me, I think its because when guys see someone who is generaly male appearing they dont scrutinize them, because they arnt interested in sex with a dude most of the time. I get outed by gay men and women. In reverse I think its because a Man is more likely to eyeball a woman. Thats my theory. 

The cisgender women that hate on Transladies are jealous plain and simple. they were born female and yetthey are ugly in comparasin to a female individual who was born with the body of a man. To them it's insulting. Too d_ bad for them I say.

Not only are guys more likely to see me as a guy, I've had only guys come up to me on the street and actually ask me what gender I am. That seems like quite a strange distinction to me.

Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 03:18:02 AM
Not only are guys more likely to see me as a guy, I've had only guys come up to me on the street and actually ask me what gender I am. That seems like quite a strange distinction to me.

theory: Women don't care, no interest; men are wanting to know if you are a threat or friend.

Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 03:18:02 AM
Not only are guys more likely to see me as a guy, I've had only guys come up to me on the street and actually ask me what gender I am. That seems like quite a strange distinction to me.

You look like that movie actor from Xena! You're Joxer  the Mighty! OMG! (but younger)

Quote from: DRAIN on April 03, 2010, 12:17:34 AM

it could be something my therapist suggested about my coworkers....they all call me miss (name), new girl, girly girl, lady, stupid stuff like that - she said maybe it was their way of making up for my own lack of femininity to not hurt my feelings, since most women wouldn't want to be considered male or masculine (at least in my area). probably not in radar's case, but it's an interesting thought

I've been getting ma'ams pretty much daily since I started to dress in a more masculine way. A few years ago when I was in my overcompensating stage of being uber femme, I got nothing. I know they're just trying to be polite, but every time I hear it I end up grumbling after they go away. I know I don't pass well anyway. I've got an hourglass figure even when bound. I walk all swishy. I talk with my hands. I tend to do all the things I'm told NOT to do if I want to look more boyish. Meh. Even after years of T I don't think I could act like anything not flamingly gay... As I am... very gay.

The point is, is that right now, dressing like a guy and looking more masculine than ever, it's like people hop up to the plate to say MISS, ma'am, she, etc. Whereas when I was what could be considered a hot girl (lol) I got nothing of the sort aside from on occasion creepy guys calling me honey and all that rot.

I realize that I used to do this though. If someone looked boyish but was obviously a girl to me, I would purposely say miss, ma'am, etc. thinking that they must be tired of getting pegged as the wrong gender. Yeah hi, I was in denial from puberty until about 23.

Feel kinda like a prick now though. Maybe this constant ma'aming is karma coming back to kick me in the bootay.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 01, 2010, 12:10:20 PM
theory: Women don't care, no interest; men are wanting to know if you are a threat or friend.

that sounds right to me.

ive found that women in general are less inclined to fuss about things. as a teen i was ridiculously exhibitionist about a lot of ridiculous things, fashion and fetish, and guys would make a big loud brouhaha about it whereas girls would snicker amongst themselves from afar.

Quote from: Myself on May 01, 2010, 12:36:54 PM
You look like that movie actor from Xena! You're Joxer  the Mighty! OMG! (but younger)

Ahaha. I've never seen that man before, but you are right. He looks like a caricature of me in 10 years. i wish i had that manly of a face!! lol

careful, joxer was the town idiot/jester.  Not something to aspire to.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 01, 2010, 09:20:32 PM
careful, joxer was the town idiot/jester.  Not something to aspire to.

i wouldn't mind the role whatsoever. i could play a mandolin.

I pass better in the country than in the city!  Ladies in country pubs refer to me as a "young gentleman", so I grunt a lot.  At car shows, the guys at the gate always assume I'm my friend's teenage son/brother and I get in free.

Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 09:30:08 PM
i wouldn't mind the role whatsoever. i could play a mandolin.

cool!

Quote from: elvistears on May 01, 2010, 09:35:45 PM
I pass better in the country than in the city!  Ladies in country pubs refer to me as a "young gentleman", so I grunt a lot.  At car shows, the guys at the gate always assume I'm my friend's teenage son/brother and I get in free.

My daughter did that until she got f size chest.  Being 4'8" helps with that.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 01, 2010, 09:20:32 PMcareful, joxer was the town idiot/jester.  Not something to aspire to.

Yes, but he's Sam Raimi's brother so all is forgiven.

Update on work theory:
So when I told my manager last week she confirmed a few things with me. She said she (and probably other female employees) would emphasis some female terms since most women wouldn't want to be seen or compared to as male. Of course she also assumed something else was going on but didn't want to be rude until told differently.

Not everyone at work knows yet but she informed me few people will be surprised. I hope she's right. I have noticed that people will use the term "ladies" less when I'm included- but I'm sure the fact I ignore it helps too. So many clients are absolutely convinced I'm male over the phone that they can't be told differently so some of my co-workers have given up "correcting" them. It will be nice (yet weird) after the announcement.