You transition to become yourself. To make the outside match the person on the inside.
But then you see alot of people who make a conscious effort to change their behaviour, body language and speech to appear more masculine. Surely this is the complete opposite to becoming yourself if you feel the need to change the way you act. Your personality.

There's studies to show that transpeople have brains far more similar to those of their gender than their sex (If that makes sense). So going by that fact, if an FTM has a masculine brain, then their behaviour should reflect that, right? A male brain should direct your body in a male manner with body language, speech, etc.

I've always found that this applies to me at least. I was always told off by teachers for my "unladylike" behaviour. Not just my interests and dress sense, but the way I held my body, the way I sat, etc.

This has always confused me a bit, so any input or opinions would be great.

I completely agree and, like you, have always been told off by parents, teachers and other family members that I was not "ladylike". My behaviors, posture, speech patterns and such were always very male, I just didn't really realize the difference I guess until I was conscious of it. In the beginning of my transition I would observe bio males and try to copy their 'masculinity' but then realized that I already acted like them in most ways.

I think the things that most trans men 'change' to become more masculine are the things that they gave into when people told them to be more ladylike. If that makes sense. That they actually have to unlearn the things that they did to try to fit in and get back to the behaviors they would instinctively have had if they had been themselves before....

 I agree if ur really trans then u shouldn't need tips on passing u should just know. If u feel and know that ur male then act the way u are and u should be fine. I act myself and I am who I am. For instance bathroom when I go in I don't talk no eye contact get in get out no one needs to say that if u have a male brain

I think bathroom etiquette is different to behaviour and body language.
Male bathroom etiquette is definitely learned rather than programmed in.

Seems like it, but some of it's conditioning. Perhaps you've already gone the opposite way and adjusted to being feminine?

For the record, I don't need to change my body language either. Mom always complained I wasn't feminine enough and now it's not an issue.

This has always confused me too, as long as I can remember I've been told off for sitting like a man...walking like a man...belching like a man

Even when I was super fem appearance wise I was always "one of the lads"

Quote from: SilverFang on May 05, 2010, 09:40:57 AM
Perhaps you've already gone the opposite way and adjusted to being feminine?

Feminine guys are usually assumed gay and that's something I've never had a problem with.

Quote from: Ryan on May 05, 2010, 09:30:29 AM
I think bathroom etiquette is different to behaviour and body language.
Male bathroom etiquette is definitely learned rather than programmed in.

I think it might be programed in actully. Females pack in groups for saftey (often from the males), and when voiding are at thier most vulnerable. So they seek protection in numbers. Males do not need to protect themselves from women so solitary voiding behavior is the norm.
thats my therory anyways...

Quote from: cynthialee on May 05, 2010, 09:44:51 AM
I think it might be programed in actully. Females pack in groups for saftey (often from the males), and when voiding are at thier most vulnerable. So they seek protection in numbers. Males do not need to protect themselves from women so solitary voiding behavior is the norm.
thats my therory anyways...

Thanks, first possible answer I've found to my endless "why do females go to the bathroom in packs?" question.

I've found that now that I've been on T for almost 22 months that initially, worrying about passing and thinking more about typical male/female behaviors and making conscious efforts to avoid doing anything stereotypically female lest I be read as not male went away once I was passing 100% and also started actually seeing myself as male in the mirror.

Now I don't consciously think about how I sit or stand or walk or whatever, I just do what comes naturally.

It's normal in the beginning.  But I don't think we are necessarily changing who we are, but are just more aware.  I have noticed also that even though I'm the same person, I have changed a LOT.  Some for the better, some for the worse.  I am definitely NOT the same person I was -- in some respects yes but others no.


Jay

That and the female pee domino effect. One girl gets up and instantly the rest at the table have to go as well. Always makes me grumble if I get up, then my friends follow me. FFS I don't need company. I don't care if you have to go now that I've excused myself. Just go afterward. XD

Certain bits of my behavior would suggest that I'm simply a very swishy male. This I like. I don't, however, like being told that because I walk like a girl, I must be a girl. (this has happened) I don't like the idea of changing who I am to shoot all the way to the other end of the gender spectrum. That would be just as bad for me as being a girl. I don't like a lot of boy stuff. So shoot me. I would rather pick clothes out for my friends and do their hair than play football or work on cars. Meh. At the same time, certain girly things seem very foreign to me still. STILL Just because I can dance, doesn't mean that I'm a girl. It just means that I can dance.

I have vents like these on occasion with a close friend who lives way to far away. He always gives me a cyber pat on the head and says "It's okay honey, you're just gay." Some days it's the most comforting thing anyone can say to me. To not be denied my maleness, despite my "Fabulous tendencies." (Yeah he's a bit flamboyant)

I was also told to act more ladylike growing up. 

One specific time stands out to me especially.  My family went on a cruise, and there was a night that everyone dressed up.  Of course, my mom made me wear a dress (I think I was 11 so I didn't have much of a choice).  We took a family picture, and the photographer asked me to stand with my legs closer together.  My mom gave me this look of disapproval and embarrassment that I'll never forget.  I couldn't understand what was wrong with the way I stood.  Or sat or walked.  But apparently it was very "unladylike."

I do believe some things are inherent, that we are born with certain male characteristics.  But I also think that some of it, a great deal of it, is from our own conditioning (whether consciously or unconsciously).  But that is also the same with any child of any gender.

It's the old nature versus nurture argument.  I believe in nature and nurture.

After years of being told I was too much "like a boy" I was actually sent to finishing school to learn how to "act like a lady". So I can act in a very feminine way, but the key word there is 'act'. If I'm just being myself, my body language falls into patterns that are read more as masculine, even if it's sometimes an effeminate masculine.

Some aspects of the way we move is dictated by physicality, though. If you have breasts getting in your way, or a wide pelvis that makes your butt poke out and your femurs angle down/inwards towards your knees (which is common but not universal for female-born bodies) it will affect your center of gravity and how you move your limbs and so on.

Quote from: SilverFang on May 05, 2010, 09:48:11 AM
Thanks, first possible answer I've found to my endless "why do females go to the bathroom in packs?" question.

The bathroom thing! Ok this made no sense to me either! you go you pee, you wash hands and leave. End of story. I always got told to sit with my legs together...but even without the proper junk down there it still feels weird. I can't sit with my legs closed.

Quote from: M.Grimm on May 05, 2010, 12:16:42 PM

Some aspects of the way we move is dictated by physicality, though. If you have breasts getting in your way, or a wide pelvis that makes your butt poke out and your femurs angle down/inwards towards your knees (which is common but not universal for female-born bodies) it will affect your center of gravity and how you move your limbs and so on.

I think I'd subconsciously registered this but have never actually thought about the physical aspect of it until now......do you think that applies in opposite? Like, the fact that when I went through puberty I always caught my hips on the edge of tables or turning corners? that would explain my clumsiness.....

Deffinately. My chest area was a constant issue as far as it getting in the way, because I wasn't in tune with my body or my curves, I always felt as if I was walking around in a padded body suit or life vest lol.

Well you guys have explained the bruised hips and I , like Grimm, got sent to school to learn how to act like a lady. I hated it. Just so I wouldn't embarrass my parents when the bishop came for confirmation. Oi!

Well growing up if we have male tendencies and are told to correct them when we're young, before we know we're trans...we mask how we want to carry ourselves and hide our masculine tendencies. So by doing that some of us develop female mannerisms...for me I never did. I was always told that I "walked like a farmer", sat with my legs apart, played with the boys, acted like a boy, didn't care about female conversation...and I didn't care enough to change it. I did mask some of my more male qualities...and when I transitioned I let them all hang out cause I could finally be me.

Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on May 05, 2010, 02:51:31 PM
Well growing up if we have male tendencies and are told to correct them when we're young, before we know we're trans...

I always knew I wasn't what others saw. What I didn't know is that there were others like me and that anything could be done about it. Wording doesn't quite work. I was told after knowing as were a number of others. It doesn't stop you from trying to fit in the mold that you are told to for at least a while.

I meant before we knew we were trans as in...before we knew that we didn't have to be stuck in the sex we were born in. I always knew I was a boy inside. I just didn't know what to call it.