Quote from: no_id on January 21, 2010, 09:04:43 AM
I remember from a past thread how a null gender/neuter/ag with GID expressed that their ideal body would be that of a child (pre-puberty/pre-hormonally influenced).

Ahaha, that may have been me anyway.  So no wonder my reply was compatible with it!

Quote from: Nicky on January 21, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
Thinking about it I don't think there was a trigger for me at all as I think it implies you felt normal before an event. I've never felt 'normal'. It just took me a long time to figure out why I was not 'normal'.

The bit about never having really felt normal I recognise. But that's why the physical stuff seemed so out-of-sorts to me after years of being fine with my child body, because I was used to being different personality-wise, but then suddenly I had these unwanted things happening to my body and I realised something was up. Then again, the way I was relating to people changed a lot at that time too, everything (and everyone around me) became a lot more 'gendered' and the psychological dysphoria was a lot more obvious to me. (As I hung around with snails as a child, and they're hermaphrodites anyway, didn't really get the gender differences thing forced on me a lot until secondary school...  ) I can't really separate the two as 'triggers'. Both led to me wanting to find out what was going on.
Like Nicky, I toyed with the idea that I was just a lesbian before realising that I didn't actually fancy girls. I swung between "I'm trans/I can't be" as I felt male, female or neither on different months, weeks, days, even afternoons! This could be physical, psychological, or both. When I discovered the identification 'androgyne', along with these forums, I was surprised to find people that thought a lot like me about these things! The label fit, and though knowing it hasn't made things much easier in terms of dealing with it, having worked it out and knowing I'm not the only one is definitely good. 

For me it started (consciously) with clothing.  I moved to a new city, new school at the start of sixth grade because my parents had new jobs, so I was suddenly seeing a lot less of them, and consequently got a lot more independent.  The first thing I did was change the way I dressed for school, since my mum wasn't there in the morning to tell me to go back and change    I started wearing loose jeans and sweatshirts or boxy sweaters as often as girly jeans and tshirts, and eventually just started buying equal amounts of boys and girls clothes.  In seventh grade I had my hair (waist length) cut short (chin length) in the same shaggy, choppy style as one of my best friends (nearly all my friends by then were boys).  By eighth, I was consciously aware that some days I woke up and felt like being a girl, some days a boy.
But I'm told when I was four I saw the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice and immediately began emulating Colin Firth's stride.  I still get told I walk like him.

Little round up from my side;

Poll results as of 25/02/2010
Physical: I felt my physical representation was not on par with my sense of self. - 0 (0%)
Psychological: I felt binary concepts did not apply to my sense of self. - 4 (30.8%)
Psycholigcal / Physical (please elaborate). - 8 (61.5%)
Other (please elaborate). - 1 (7.7%)

The big 'winner' is Psychological/Physical, and taking a look at the other votes this gives 'Psychological' the edge over 'Physical'.

Statement the majority of the voters who define as androgyne have stated that the awareness of their variant gender identity can be attributed psychology rather than physicality.

Personally I'm rather curious what the results would be if this poll was placed in the TS section of this forum. GID and Gender Identity go hand-in-hand or perhaps not so much and to what extend does one validate the other? And what if the results were on par, would that cause a twist in the physician networks?

I was just looking over all the data in the past that can possibly relate to this poll and posts.

1. Additional ways to help with Awareness
Since this poll is concerning awareness, a poll long ago asked if you know yourself and if so then how. Half knew themselves, and half felt they knew only part of themselves.
I think the relevance to this poll is that it lists several methods of how one can be aware or get to know oneself.

Top ones being: Introspection, having experiences, researching information, and talking with others.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15998.0.html

2. And this one sorta showed the androgynic influences which sorta shows what aspects can be influence, psych, soc, phys, and more. Though not specifically to awareness.

Top answers being gender roles, behavior, thinking, character, social, clothing, and identity.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14002.20.html

3. How does one know one is androgyne or male/female?
There are some great explanations made back at this post.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,19086.0.html

It's difficult for me to pin down, exactly. I've always felt a disconnect from most people, but I'm an otaku and a Goth and a person who reads too much and an artist, so that might be beside the point. I had identified as "girl" by default for many years, mostly under this logic: "I do not hate my genitals, nor do I want a penis, so I must not be trans. Therefore, I'm a girl."

At the same time, I felt an intense envy of and attraction to androgynous people. I would have given anything to look like that, but I figured with a body like mine, it's probably not even possible... *cue self-hatred*

So my decision to identify as an androgyne, in the end, was not a sudden, "Oh, that word fits! I wish I'd heard it sooner" but rather a slow, "Maybe that is possible. Maybe I can be that sort of person." (This was triggered by Kate Bornstein's book, my gender workbook. Yes, I am yet another person who's gender was unlocked by her writing... )

So I guess it wasn't "I felt my physical representation was not on par with my sense of self." or "I felt binary concepts did not apply to my sense of self." but rather that my sense of self was warped. (Now that it's fixed (?), both of those apply.)

Other - really

It's simply that I have started to realise the extent to which I seem somehow to have lived my entire life, almost without noticing what I had done, enjoying and apropriating for myself the best of both male privileges AND female privileges.

Simply put when I am with the girls I am fully accepted as one of them, yet whilst with the boys I can still be an honorary boy. And whilst I still regard myself as basically female underneath it all, I've realised that it's kind of cool and indeed an honour, as a female bodied person, to be allowed to belong to both clubs.

I guess that's also why I could never get all the discussions in other sections of this site about gender stereotypes, and I really don't get the whole pronoun obsession thing. Yes I do prefer to be called she because, for one thing, looking the way I do and with a female body it seems more apropriate, and it matches my own self image, but I really can't be bothered to get upset if someone really wants to call me something different as long as they are going to be friendly.

Hey there, Spuds McGinger


I think I get it from all directions. The physical and the psych. I've come to grips with the physical for now because I am putting self identity before outward presentation. Maybe I'm aging beyond the need to present. I still have body issues, but the priority has been lowered.

My main concern at this point is; How do I verbally confuse those around me so they have no idea we ever interacted?

I am a viper. People know I'm a reptile, but do they know what type? They know I'm a snake, do they know what species? They know I'm a viper, do they know what gender? Not without turning me over with their hands, and who is going to do that with a viper?

I haven't the faintest idea of what that means. It was supposed to appear mysterious and ominous. Like that food in the school cafeteria.

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Post Merge: May 08, 2010, 10:34:53 AM

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Quote from: no_id on January 21, 2010, 09:04:43 AM
Thank-you. The poll came to mind when I read over 'GID in Children' and 'GID' in general. So far it seems the majority leans towards physical & psycholigcal or psychological. I remember from a past thread how a null gender/neuter/ag with GID expressed that their ideal body would be that of a child (pre-puberty/pre-hormonally influenced). Based on that I expected a  (physical) 'trigger' near puberty a.k.a. 'That's not supposed to be there, but neither is that, so[...]', but thus far only Nicky and Fenrir's replies seem most compatible with that assumption. So it's suprising, but at the same time; not really.

That works for me. I don't have an issue of growing to become an adult, but the puberty thing ruined who I should be. So I am like a child but with the curse of one gender's hormones which cause me to have feelings that are just wrong.

am I making sense? I've been fearful of slipping into a psychosis lately.

I voted other, I'll try and explain why as I'm still trying to figure things out myself.

First up, I 100% identify as female, I know that's not in question but since I decided to stop running from the GD I've been thinking about things a lot. I've never really felt I fitted in the world from a young age really, I put it down to being a quiet, introverted geek, but even in groups of similarly quite, introverted geeks I always feel like I'm just visiting, never really a fully paid up member, if that makes any sense at all. I've never ever been all "grrrrrr, manly" and any attempts to be so end up being an incredibly unconvincing act, in much the same way if I tried to be hyper girly, it would like wise be completely unconvincing (I can honestly say that the chances of seeing me in a dress are slim to virtually non existant), and I can see no point acting in a way that isn't natural just to try and fit into a stereotype I know doesn't fit. Also, through many years of re-invention, trying to find an identity that fits who I am, I am actually close...i've been pretty much gender neutral for years and it feels comfortable, but that little internal itch of the GD, the one that I've just not been able to scratch, has never gone away. It seems slightly odd, but I 100% want to transition in order to feel more comfortable being the person I've been for the last 10 years or so. Just I'll be doing it from the correct side of the gender spectrum.

Does that make me androgyne? I have absolutely no idea, but I guess the trigger for me was the decision to actually start transitioning rather than just wishing I could.

Quote from: Rock_chick on May 09, 2010, 08:43:24 AM
I voted other, I'll try and explain why as I'm still trying to figure things out myself.

First up, I 100% identify as female, I know that's not in question but since I decided to stop running from the GD I've been thinking about things a lot. I've never really felt I fitted in the world from a young age really, I put it down to being a quiet, introverted geek, but even in groups of similarly quite, introverted geeks I always feel like I'm just visiting, never really a fully paid up member, if that makes any sense at all. I've never ever been all "grrrrrr, manly" and any attempts to be so end up being an incredibly unconvincing act, in much the same way if I tried to be hyper girly, it would like wise be completely unconvincing (I can honestly say that the chances of seeing me in a dress are slim to virtually non existant), and I can see no point acting in a way that isn't natural just to try and fit into a stereotype I know doesn't fit. Also, through many years of re-invention, trying to find an identity that fits who I am, I am actually close...i've been pretty much gender neutral for years and it feels comfortable, but that little internal itch of the GD, the one that I've just not been able to scratch, has never gone away. It seems slightly odd, but I 100% want to transition in order to feel more comfortable being the person I've been for the last 10 years or so. Just I'll be doing it from the correct side of the gender spectrum.

Does that make me androgyne? I have absolutely no idea, but I guess the trigger for me was the decision to actually start transitioning rather than just wishing I could.

That just about makes you my younger twin!

Hopefully the GIC's have moved on somewhat in their understanding since my day.

Excerpt from a real session that I had in 1977. (which hopefully will amuse you...)

The scene is a private consulting room in Harley St. Dr Randall sits at his big desk convenniently placed under a skylight so that when the sun comes out a shaft of sunlight illuminates him as he fingers his paper knife as if deciding who he will allow to be reassigned. It is like visiting God in his office! You the plaintiff patient are consigned to a small chair in the corner from where you must do your best to look demure.

John Randall "Miss Day I see you are wearing jeans today. It is as I thought then, you are having doubts"

Me "oh no doctor. This is the 1970's lot's of women wear trousers these days!"

John Randall "Not my women"

Me "I'm not your woman doctor I'm your patient"

John Randall "Miss Day, if you don't adopt a more compliant attitude you will find that I can be very difficult. I might even recommend to your parents that they force you to try living properly as a man for a while..."

The rest is history - I didn't , but he did...

and it took me several years to get back to where I wanted to be. But I won in the end - and he is now dead - so I'm not holding grudges.

That is amusing Jenny. I really love your description of him sitting at his desk. hehe

I know the important thing is to stick to my guns...I am really beginning to understand exactly who I am, and that knowledge my make things more difficult, though hopefully it will be as you say and things have moved on since the 70's. Though if I do get told I should try living as a man I can turn around and say "what on earth do you think I was doing all through my twenties!?" hehe

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 09, 2010, 08:59:28 AM
That just about makes you my younger twin!

Yay for us GGGG's (gender gifted geek girls) 

Quote from: Rock_chick on May 09, 2010, 09:18:40 AM
That is amusing Jenny. I really love your description of him sitting at his desk. hehe

I know the important thing is to stick to my guns...I am really beginning to understand exactly who I am, and that knowledge my make things more difficult, though hopefully it will be as you say and things have moved on since the 70's. Though if I do get told I should try living as a man I can turn around and say "what on earth do you think I was doing all through my twenties!?" hehe

Yay for us GGGG's (gender gifted geek girls) 

As long as you tell them clearly that you have no "doubts" about who you are - and you ask them to help you be that person I think they will probably be fine with it. You may have to consider going private for SRS though - as cash strapped PCT's are apt to latch onto the smallest little glimmer of an excuse to deny funding for that. But hey what is a few thousand pounds against a lifetime of happiness.

As for the GGGG's I think maybe we should retitle ourselves as the G4's

That has a suitable techno ring - we're either a pop group or a microprocessor depending on your slant.

Alternatively we could be GG²'s  There - I knew I would be able to claim to be a GG one day!

I definitely don't have any doubts, actually setting out on the journey have proved that. I'd actually already been thinking about going private for the SRS...time to burn the midnight oil and get on the overtime...god I hate doing overtime. I'll keep my fingers crossed about being able to sell some of my art work as well, that would be nice to do for a number of reasons.

GG²'s  I like it. hehe 

The nail in the androgyne identity is most likely when a person envisions themselves as the gender opposite from the one of their birth and realizes that they wouldn't necessarily be happy in that form either. For example, after contemplating my perfect version of having been born female, I found myself changing the physical characters until they were a mix of male and female. After that, there wasn't anything left but to realize that I want no specific physical gender because neither of the binaries can contain my vast soul.

That last line is meant to be silly, but true in its way.

Quote from: Rebis on May 09, 2010, 05:39:13 PM
The nail in the androgyne identity is most likely when a person envisions themselves as the gender opposite from the one of their birth and realizes that they wouldn't necessarily be happy in that form either.

I spent TEN months of frustrating therapy with a gender therapist who did nothing but cram transition down my throat. The only good thing that came out of it was my HRT letter. It seems so obvious now, but it took my OBGYN's referral to their Clinic's psychologist, a half day interview and a thousand question psychological survey to find out I am just as dysphoric about my female nature as I am my male!

Quote from: Virginia on May 10, 2010, 06:03:56 PM
I spent TEN months of frustrating therapy with a gender therapist who did nothing but cram transition down my throat. The only good thing that came out of it was my HRT letter. It seems so obvious now, but it took my OBGYN's referral to their Clinic's psychologist, a half day interview and a thousand question psychological survey to find out I am just as dysphoric about my female nature as I am my male!

Wow I can't imagine how difficult and confusing that must feel.

Personally I'm totally comfortable as as close to 100% physically female as I can get. It's just that I tend to want to kind of overflow that definition in the arena of my self expression sometimes.

Anyway I hope you have now found something that works for you.

Thank you, rejennyrated. It took transition level HRT to reduce my Gender Dysphoria but the zombie like days and sleepless nights are gone. I live my life like a slowly swinging pendulum. It is very important to me to have both a strong male AND a strong female presentation. But I get edgy staying in either extreme for extended periods and am uncomfortable combining the two into a confusing or genderlessly unidentifiable blend. My hair is styled masculinely long,  I shave my body, and I am a half dozen electro sessions into removing the gray the laser didn't get on my face. Nothing that prevents me from having a solid guy presentation the majority of the time. But the balance is I spend a day a week out and about people as my female self. Along with HRT, it seems to be working. If things could only start to get easier for my wife...

Quote from: Rebis on May 09, 2010, 05:39:13 PM
The nail in the androgyne identity is most likely when a person envisions themselves as the gender opposite from the one of their birth and realizes that they wouldn't necessarily be happy in that form either.

I did exactly this, and came to the same realization. However, with my new found knowledge, nothing was "solved" for me.

In some ways i'm still doing it, looking for some kind of solution to my GID. This searching often leads to depression and other self destructive things. It seems that i am searching for a solution that does not exist 

Quote from: riven1 on May 11, 2010, 01:45:28 PM
...nothing was "solved" for me. In some ways i'm still doing it, looking for some kind of solution to my GID.

Riven1, I don't know if you are open to HRT, but it has been a godsend for me.  My Gender Dysphoria was rapidly headed towards suicide if I had not started HRT. Simply put, my brain needed the female hormones my body was unable to produce for me to be at peace with being a guy. And the fact that I have experienced minimal physical effects from my HRT regimen of estrogen and testosterone blockers has been as much of a blessing as the relief from my GD. I experienced none of the wild emotional swings that so many talk about and except for the mosquito bites on my chest, I am no less able to present as a guy than ever.

Quote from: Virginia on May 11, 2010, 02:16:53 PM
Riven1, I don't know if you are open to HRT, but it has been a godsend for me.  My Gender Dysphoria was rapidly headed towards suicide if I had not started HRT. Simply put, my brain needed the female hormones my body was unable to produce for me to be at peace with being a guy. And the fact that I have experienced minimal physical effects from my HRT regimen of estrogen and testosterone blockers has been as much of a blessing as the relief from my GD. I experienced none of the wild emotional swings that so many talk about and except for the mosquito bites on my chest, I am no less able to present as a guy than ever.

HRT is not an option for me right now due to some medical issues. In fact, self medicating may have led to a recent severe medical situation. But i did like the feeling i had during that time. And i'd really have to bring the wife in on a decision such as that.

I think I would be better off talking to a therapist first. Finding the time (and the courage) is an issue for me at the moment though.

Quote from: Virginia on May 10, 2010, 06:03:56 PM
I spent TEN months of frustrating therapy with a gender therapist who did nothing but cram transition down my throat. The only good thing that came out of it was my HRT letter. It seems so obvious now, but it took my OBGYN's referral to their Clinic's psychologist, a half day interview and a thousand question psychological survey to find out I am just as dysphoric about my female nature as I am my male!

You may be the first person I know who has the documentation to back the notion of 'total dysphoria'. That's me too.

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Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 08:59:16 PM

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Quote from: riven1 on May 11, 2010, 01:45:28 PM
I did exactly this, and came to the same realization. However, with my new found knowledge, nothing was "solved" for me.

In some ways i'm still doing it, looking for some kind of solution to my GID. This searching often leads to depression and other self destructive things. It seems that i am searching for a solution that does not exist 

Yeah, it takes some work.

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Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 10:05:31 PM

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Quote from: Virginia on May 11, 2010, 02:16:53 PM
Riven1, I don't know if you are open to HRT, but it has been a godsend for me.  My Gender Dysphoria was rapidly headed towards suicide if I had not started HRT. Simply put, my brain needed the female hormones my body was unable to produce for me to be at peace with being a guy. And the fact that I have experienced minimal physical effects from my HRT regimen of estrogen and testosterone blockers has been as much of a blessing as the relief from my GD. I experienced none of the wild emotional swings that so many talk about and except for the mosquito bites on my chest, I am no less able to present as a guy than ever.

I've always thought that would work for me. Some Australians are using an estrogen that doesn't affect the body on men and women who are depressed.