QuoteGeorge Rekers is only the latest "Christian anti-gay leader" caught in a gay-sex scandal, observes Michelle Goldberg in The Daily Beast. That's hardly a coincidence

Link

What was interesting in the article:

Quote"In 1996, three researchers from the University of Georgia  published a study in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology about the links between homophobia and homosexual arousal. The authors, Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr, started with 35 straight men identified as homophobic and 29 straight men that were not. Both groups were shown heterosexual, lesbian, and gay male porn while their erectile responses were measured. 'Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli,' reported the researchers.

So the next time we see someone out there supporting anti-gay or anti-trans sentiment we'll have to ask ourselves are they fighting themselves?

Actually, I believe further study showed that the emotional reaction (hate and anger and so on) could create a reaction in the downstairs department of men, even if there was no lust or desire involved. So the homphobia = hiding his own homosexuality assumption is unreliable.

Though it "can" be true...

Just.. often actually isn't.

Long ago, I came to the conclusion that those that see fault in others are tending to hide it from themselves.

If I meet people who don't trust me for example, I generally take the view that they are untrustworthy, dishonest and so on.

In the case of those who misuse religion, they are generally politically motivated.

Any study of Christianity or Islam, two of the more missused justifications in recent years, will show that these types of sweeping judgements are not acceptable in either.

The phrase, The lady doth protest too much, methinks., spirngs to mind.

They keep getting outed, because they keep getting caught.  If they would stop playing with the penises of other boys (and they seem to have a deep and abiding urge to go with the pros at that) then they would stop getting caught at it.

And though there is a lot of heavily closeted projection/reaction types (see: Roy Cohen, it's not a new deal), I think it would be a mistake to see them all as such cases.  Though it's always damn amusing when it comes to light.

But, amused as I am, (And believe me, I'm laugh-till-your-sides-hurt amused) I'm never forgetting that in the surreal never-land they live in, that doing all that gay stuff, oral, anal, European vacations, whatever, that does not prove their message was wrong.  Oh no.  It proves how strong the "the great deceiver" is,  How the devil puts temptation out in front of those that would defy him (which is how I NEVER get involved with gay prostuttes, because in not publicly rallying people against Satan he never has a reason to toss them my way) as a way of destroying them with sin.  In the minds of people who believe all of this just makes the whole thing even more real, and even more evil.

How insidious is the power of the devil that he could take good, solid, upright men of god like this jerk, or pastor Ted, or half the clergy of the Catholic Church, and get them down on their knees with some dick in their mouth?  This is not taken as proof that these guys were just some flim-flam scam artists trading in on superstition and generating cash, all the while living a lifestyle the exact opposite of what they were publicly preaching.  Oh no.  This is proof the Lucifer is out to destroy us, and he is powerful enough to do it too.  So what for me is confirmation that they are just a bunch of con men - and that's the Pope, Billy Graham and Pastor Ed down the street - is for those who believe, just as much a confirmation of their correctness.

So they have a built-in defense against this stuff, and it doesn't seem to change anyone.  Even those who are 'caught' go out and do the 'repent' thing and are back on the circuit in no time.

When I was doing my enforced reparative therapy pre 1981 I too joined an evangelical christian group.

They promised me healing if I took a step of faith. For a while I was as born again baptised in the spirit bible believing as anyone.

For a very brief while at around the age on 19 I became rather anti trans... But I soon realised two things:
1.) the promised healing was always just one more step of faith away. It was never actually delivered.
2.) for a religion which proclaimed freedom love and forgiveness all that I was seeing in my own life was bondage, hatred and judgement. I had become a person who was hypocritical and whom I did not like at all. That realisation very nearly took me to suicide on one occasion, probably the only time in my life that I was really unhappy about my GID.

By the time I had gotten into my twenties I had thankfully started to move on. A process which was completed in dramatic style when I was literally physically ejected form my fellowship following my decision to transition and seek SRS. I then spent some while with a more liberal version of the chuch before finally becomming a fully paid up pagan.

My personal take on this is that those who adopt the extreme forms of religion come in basically two flavours - firstly those who are so literal, dry, unimaginative, unempathetic and lacking in basic warmth that they hardly qualify as human at all! and secondly those who are trying to run away from or suppress some part of themselves. I came into the second group, as do many of the most vocal.

When I finally gave in and accepeted myself, it triggered two other people in the same small chutch to do the same! One was my co-leader of the bible study group!

Whenever I see a Christian denouncing homosexuals and trans people, from my direct personal experience, I become pretty certain that most of the time they are repressed trans or gay themselves and trying the oldest trick in the book which is to put up a huge smokescreen and hope no one will notice them behind it.

I would be willing to bet a fairly large amount that pretty well 100.0% of our most violent detrctors are actually a lot closer to us than they care to admit.

I think the whole "they're just scammers" cliche is usually wrong. Sure there are some but I person who's REALLY gay who's willing to throw the whole of homosexuality under the bus for cash? would have to be pretty rare.

As I've said elsewhere, i think rather the problem here is that these people have been well taught, and sincerly believe, that homosexuality (or transexualism for that matter) is a "besetting sin" that God disapproves of and that he's willing to deliver them from if the repent of it hard enough.

so that the crusade mentality is both a function of trying to be "super-christian" enough that God will relieve them of their burden, and also to sincerely try to keep others from feeling the inner turmoil they themselves feel. I know because I was right there (though never an advocate in any meaningful way against gays).

I had been taught, and had no reason to disbelieve, that the Bible condemned that which I felt and the only answer, within the context of the teachings I'd been under, was repentance and prayer and "seeking God's deliverance"

Of course, when the deliverance doesn't come then you are trapped in this cycle of self condemnation and the expectations that come with the outward persona you have created. It can be a hell of a prison of your own creation and from a psychological point of view, you have to either admit that you've wasted your whole life to this point operating under a false premise, or you get more and more defensive and thereby you "act out" against the thing that's plaguing you.

It's a perfectly reasonable chain of events, in terms of understanding what's happening.

That's not to say I think ALL vocal opponents of homosexuality are secretly gay, far from it. But I would suspect that there would be a higher concentration of self-denying gays in that crowd than in the general population simply because of the dynamics of trying so hard to get rid of what you perceive to be a sin in your own life.

An awful lot of these people who make it to the top do so out of ambition and the money usually follows.  Once bathed in the green stuff, it's hard to let it go, effectively making them succumb to the sin of greed.  Then they have the problem of dealing with their own issues, which their bible says is sinful.  Or at least that's how they interpret it.

But Kat hit on something that allows them to sin all they want and get away with it: repentance.  The preaching goes like this, we are all sinners, we all fall to temptation, we can all get back up so long as we repent.  Then you're okay again.  Of course, you have to be more careful the next time that guy with the horns and pitchfork comes a knockin'.  You can succumb, just don't get caught.  And like any smart criminal, you get better at not getting caught as you indulge in your sins.

Quote from: Laura Hope on May 11, 2010, 12:21:46 PM
I think the whole "they're just scammers" cliche is usually wrong. Sure there are some but I person who's REALLY gay who's willing to throw the whole of homosexuality under the bus for cash? would have to be pretty rare.

Generally speaking, any politician who is gay or bi and votes against gay rights or engages in anti-gay campaigning qualifies as someone who is throwing fellow gays under the bus for cash.  I'll grant you that when it comes to religious leaders, the waters muddy a bit.  That's because these people are so messed up THEY don't know what's real.

But let me ask you Laura, since it seems you are closer to the religious right than I, do these people really believe there is an evil spirit called the devil or Lucifer or whatever, who is trying to bring down mankind?  I mean really believe it!

When I was a kid, I sort of believed in the devil but I quickly outgrew that.  Just as I did thinking Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were real.  Most people grow out of these childhood fantasies.

I mean, if these people REALLY believe there is some sort of evil demon trying to tempt us to sin so we end up in hell, doesn't it make you want to suggest they enter into therapy?

Quote from: Julie Marie on May 11, 2010, 01:38:28 PM
Generally speaking, any politician who is gay or bi and votes against gay rights or engages in anti-gay campaigning qualifies as someone who is throwing fellow gays under the bus for cash.  I'll grant you that when it comes to religious leaders, the waters muddy a bit.  That's because these people are so messed up THEY don't know what's real.

But let me ask you Laura, since it seems you are closer to the religious right than I, do these people really believe there is an evil spirit called the devil or Lucifer or whatever, who is trying to bring down mankind?  I mean really believe it!

When I was a kid, I sort of believed in the devil but I quickly outgrew that.  Just as I did thinking Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were real.  Most people grow out of these childhood fantasies.

I mean, if these people REALLY believe there is some sort of evil demon trying to tempt us to sin so we end up in hell, doesn't it make you want to suggest they enter into therapy?

there are theologically deeper folks than me here but I've spent most of my life in the SBC so i speak more from experience with the outworking of the doctrine rather than what it officially says.

In my experience, almost every evangelical Christian believes in a being who fills the role commonly thought of as "the devil" or Satan.

They/we do NOT believe in the horns and pitchfork  cartoonish image that is part of the common culture.

Most Christians do not give remotely enough thought to the practical implications of what they believe...

(and I could give you exhaustive examples of the sorts of cliches  commonly spoken or written that demonstrate a lack of thought but I'll hold it to one: a lot of people will say, in a conversational way, "I'm so glad my house didn't get blown away in the storm! I'm so blessed and God is so good to me!" while never stopping to think that the logical implication is that god is NOT good when it comes to the sweet little church lady down the road who DID get her house blown away. they don't really THINK about the implications of what they say, they just parrot cliches)

...and so it often is with Satan.

Let me offer you a bit of a hypothesis that's mostly my own synthesis of what I think the Bible says and what seems logical to me (logical within the context of their actually being a God anything like the bible describes):

My working hypothesis is that this existence that human beings have is, in essence, a massive demonstration lab.

God, in eternity past, professed himself to be - by virtue of being the ultimate being - all knowing, all loving, alljust, etc.

The being we refer to as Satan essentially said "How do we know? if there is no sin, what is there to forgive or be gracious about, or to judge?"

So God created this universe (or the part of it our senses can perceive) to serve as a example to demonstrate to the Skeptic that he was what he claimed to be.

(yes, by the way, that makes humanity a pretty humble part of the whole of creation but I'm not troubled by that)

Whether or not my suggestion has any merit, it illustrates what i can say about my fellow evangelical Christians - Satan is "the great adversary"

different people apply that in different ways - I have no doubt that for some that means a being who (personally or via some minion) actively tries to screw up their lives and cause them to doubt God; for others he is merely ...how do I put this?...the spirit of doubt and fear and loss of faith...if that makes any sense. He's the one who "spins" whatever goes through your mind in a way which reflects most negatively upon God.

But to clarify, this being's intent is understood not to be antagonistic to men, but to God. That men might suffer if he succeeds is "collateral damage" at best. But the understanding is that this being sincerely wishes to overthrow the rule of God and, if successful, no one would suffer from the judgment of the dethroned former-god. So the mythology doesn't really suggest he just wants to drag ever soul he can to hell. He would say his goal is that there is no hell and no one in it and no one to send you there.

At least, so I understand it.

My own personal take is a lot less specific.

i believe that there IS a god and that the Bible is instructive in that it tells us what he wants us to know about the "other world" he inhabits and what the implications are for this one, though I no longer believe in the literal approach. It's a lesson book not a history book.

Within that context, I believew there IS a being which we refer to as Satan but I think that we, in this life, have almost no real understanding of what's going on with him and can only speculate beyond the premise that he is an adversary of God and that God for some reason tolerates his acting in that role.

I speculate that there is a rather massive (from our perspective) "spiritual war" going on that we in this world are only tangentially concerned with (and that from their perspective - it's all but irrelevant from ours)

I fully admit that none of this is based on any scientific evidence, and do not attempt to proselytize my own point of view - it might well be that it's simply a comfort to me to believe that there is something bigger and more important going on in the 'verse than what i can see around me.

YMMV.

All that said, no, I wouldn't suggest therapy unless I was going to suggest it for all the other goofy things people believe in this world (and that list is QUITE long)

Quote from: tekla on May 11, 2010, 11:20:40 AM
They keep getting outed, because they keep getting caught.  If they would stop playing with the penises of other boys (and they seem to have a deep and abiding urge to go with the pros at that) then they would stop getting caught at it.

And though there is a lot of heavily closeted projection/reaction types (see: Roy Cohen, it's not a new deal), I think it would be a mistake to see them all as such cases.  Though it's always damn amusing when it comes to light.

But, amused as I am, (And believe me, I'm laugh-till-your-sides-hurt amused) I'm never forgetting that in the surreal never-land they live in, that doing all that gay stuff, oral, anal, European vacations, whatever, that does not prove their message was wrong.  Oh no.  It proves how strong the "the great deceiver" is,  How the devil puts temptation out in front of those that would defy him (which is how I NEVER get involved with gay prostuttes, because in not publicly rallying people against Satan he never has a reason to toss them my way) as a way of destroying them with sin.  In the minds of people who believe all of this just makes the whole thing even more real, and even more evil.

How insidious is the power of the devil that he could take good, solid, upright men of god like this jerk, or pastor Ted, or half the clergy of the Catholic Church, and get them down on their knees with some dick in their mouth?  This is not taken as proof that these guys were just some flim-flam scam artists trading in on superstition and generating cash, all the while living a lifestyle the exact opposite of what they were publicly preaching.  Oh no.  This is proof the Lucifer is out to destroy us, and he is powerful enough to do it too.  So what for me is confirmation that they are just a bunch of con men - and that's the Pope, Billy Graham and Pastor Ed down the street - is for those who believe, just as much a confirmation of their correctness.

So they have a built-in defense against this stuff, and it doesn't seem to change anyone.  Even those who are 'caught' go out and do the 'repent' thing and are back on the circuit in no time.

This is one of the best analyses I've read in a long time.

An anecdote on this that I heard many years ago was about an old woman who had heard one too many sermons about Satan running after people with temptations to sin. The woman stood up in the middle of church one day and called out to the preacher "Riverind, how can Satan have enough time to run around chasing people when they are all pullin' at his coat-tails?"

'Good' and 'Evil' are social constructs, physics is god's construct.  Physics has no morality.

While the taboo analogy is sometimes true, many people like the thrill of doing something they shouldn't and getting away with it, I don't think it's true when someone repeatedly engages in the same act over and over.  The adrenaline junkies usually move on to something bigger and better.

In the cases of Rekers, Craig, Haggard and the like, they kept going back for more because they enjoyed it.  They needed it. 

Rekers recently played the Clinton card by saying he has never had a homosexual relationship.  I think in his mind, he managed to convince himself that laying naked with a man who prostitutes himself to gay men and having the man touch him all over, including his erect penis, is not a homosexual relationship because there was no penetration.  Kinda like "I did not have sex with that woman" (who just gave me a BJ).

Okay, sure!

I think many of the religious taboos were created by people ashamed of their thoughts and desires.  So, by making the wrath of god the punishment for engaging in what was then a serious social taboo, it kept them from succumbing to their natural desires.  Then they went around preaching it to keep them busy and get others to go along.  That resulted in further proof that engaging in the taboo was wrong and god would punish you for it.  And, now that it is a sin and god will punish you for it, there's more motivation to avoid engaging in it.

The reason many people are religious is to save themselves from damnation.  If they can save someone else along the way, great, but first and foremost the focus is keeping those hellfires away from them.  So the idea that all these early self proclaimed preachers were selflessly working for the lord and trying to help as many people reach the pearly gates is tough to swallow.  And the same is true today.  Most of these TV evangelists are in it for themselves.  And the same is true for many of anti-LGBT leaders.  Their vehemence says what their words won't - "I'm gay and avoiding it and so should you!" (or some variation of that)

I wonder who will be next to "fall"?

The basics of Christianity is that "All have sinned and fallen short of the holiness of God." New Testament Romans Chapter 3ff.
That part of the God head, namely Jesus Christ was sent into the world as a human being to take the punishment of sin by his death on the cross.
In so doing all who put their faith (trust) in what Jesus has done for them have eternal life and are forgiven by God.
From the beginning of time there has been this spiritual battle between the fallen angel Lucifer and God to which mankind was drawn into from almost the start of the creation.
Human beings because they now inhabit a fallen nature knowing good and evil have sin as part of their nature inherent to them.
The very nature of sin is purely rebellion against God.
God knowing the difficulties of sin since Christ lived as a man has made a way that man can become reunited with God again through Christ's sacrifice on the cross as I have already said.
I believe we inhabit a universe that is both physical and spiritual the physical we see.

As you no doubt have guessed I was a Christian before transition and still a Christian after, nothing has changed about my faith. Yes you get others who interpret the Bible in their way but that does not mean that the bible is wrong, it merely means man's interpretation of it is wrong not the message. There are numerous biblical verses that speak of intersex and man made gender conditions to which Jesus has no condemnation but acceptance. If only people would read their bibles in the light of the bible and not in the light of man made material.

This post may or may not make sense but I hope it does.

Stardust 

That there is great evil in the world - or at least huge wrongs - is hard to dispute.  But outside of rape and kids, I doubt that evil is being done with genitalia.  I think that despite what my nuns tried to tell me, that (and this is a literal quote, I heard it at least a thousand times, Catholic Nuns being real big on the evils of sex deal) "Everytime you masterbate (they used the term "touch yourself in an impure manner," couldn't even bring themselves to use the M world) you are nailing Jesus to the cross."  Which, you've got to say, is a heaping helping of guilt, for something that is not doing that at all.

Quote from: tekla on May 16, 2010, 10:16:05 PM
That there is great evil in the world - or at least huge wrongs - is hard to dispute.  But outside of rape and kids, I doubt that evil is being done with genitalia.  I think that despite what my nuns tried to tell me, that (and this is a literal quote, I heard it at least a thousand times, Catholic Nuns being real big on the evils of sex deal) "Everytime you masterbate (they used the term "touch yourself in an impure manner," couldn't even bring themselves to use the M world) you are nailing Jesus to the cross."  Which, you've got to say, is a heaping helping of guilt, for something that is not doing that at all.

You are missing the point that I made. The quote I used "All have sinned" means literally that. The problem is people see individual sins as sin where in fact the theological understanding is that sin is inherent in us part of our genetic make up, the reason Genesis 3 says about knowing good and evil. The sins that we do if I can say it that way is a symptom not the cause. If you like its a little like a cold virus, we experience the symptoms of runny nose, sore throat, etc but its the virus that is the cause. Sins committed is the symptoms of sin. That's why Jesus died for us because of sin, not the sins.

Hope that helps

Stardust

The whole sin thing was created so we'll feel the need for some religion to save us from sin.  Even when I was a kid I wondered why there was original sin, the concept that we are all born with the sins of Adam and Eve.  It didn't make sense.  Later I realized that it was just to get parents to baptize their newborns and get them started on the path of catholicism. 

It's kind of like your government saying the moment you are born you are in debt so you'd better go to work and pay off that debt.  Oh yeah, they already do that.  It's called taxation. 

But really, the whole concept of sin is perpetuated by religions to keep you coming back and keep their coffers filled.  And when you do something, like go on Rentboy.com and rent a hunky luggage handler, then get caught, religion will be there to save you from damnation.  Just make a large donation and the gates of heaven will reopen.  And the next time the thought of those bare butts on Rentboy stirs up your loins, you know no matter how far you fall, religion will be there to help you back up.  Where do I sign up?

In the movie Religulous, some guy says he was a satanic priest until he was saved.  "I had money, women, drugs, everything..."  Bill Maher later remarked, "Sounds like he had it all!".  Yeah!  But the guilt and shame pounded into this guy by religion made him think that he was going to hell for having what an awful lot of guys want.  What's wrong with this picture? 

"I'm looking for a religion that won't make me feel bad about myself."  A funny quote because it's true.

Personally I think there is a lot in what all the posts on this thread have covered.  Also these people generally have an ego the size of Mt Everest, so they seem to rationalise that they can somehow not be tainted, while they are getting away with it. " Well, it was only the once, and I repented. Ok. Twice, but I really did mean it God, I really,really repent. There I'm ok now".

And, given that Western Christianity holds that we are all suffering due to Original Sin, they can't help it, can they ?   

getting off topic-Since I have started looking at Eastern Christianity, I have discovered that the concept of Original Sin is not a part of their theology in the same way.  The first Churches were Greek, so it makes sense to take a good look at their point of view. 

Well I was born an original sinner.
I was borne from original sin.
And if I had a dollar bill
For all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money
Piled up to my chin...

Original sin is a uniquely negative concept, even for religions.

Well everyone has times (until Prozak) where they felt unlucky, nothing going right, hell, they must have been Born Under a Bad Sign, or perhaps been the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, cause if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all.

So the idea is really brill.  You take something that people naturally feel and name it, and put a condition on it.  Hell, Original Sin is the original Damned if you don't, in Western Civ's Damned if you do, and damned if you don't mindset.

Born to Be Bad?  Born into a Faustian Damnation without doing a damn thing.  Awesome.

We're The Church, and we can help you with this (for a small donation, consider it an offering).