I am an atheist...  And in that context, I realize that the Bible can be manipulated any way to fit ones desire.  It is just a matter of wording.  In reference to the Deuteronomy verse, one could simply say that because you are a man/ woman internally, wearing the clothing of the opposite anatomic sex does not violate this law.  From a strong transgender view point, transgender individuals are the gender of the people that they identify with.  In that sense, you are a not violating Bible and its word.

Also, one needs to recognize that you are never going to win against your family.  Religiosity rarely has to do with scripture, instead it reflects the values of the group.  For example, when I was a "Believer" a lady at church complained in a Deacon's meeting that the Pastor wears sandals every once in a while (I know, sounds ridiculous, and this was at a comparatively liberal church).  The whole group started getting angry... And then one individual spoke up and said that, "Jesus wore sandals and their are verses commanding to wear sandals, so what is so wrong with this?" Everyone was still angry after that statement.  It is not about written text, instead it is what reflects the word of the group as a whole.  In that realm, your family may not be accepting. 

If anything is explained under a verse in a bible, it has been interpreted by someone else and is not the view of the verse but the view of the interpreter.


Ex bible scholar who did as Devin said and went back to the hebrew and greek for original text.

Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 08:08:35 PM
SHes gotten me with 1 Corinthians 6:9 

I do not understand.  From what little I might surmise from context, she has referred to the pronouncement that neither the malakoi(amounts to 'soft one,' or, in gay parlance, 'bottom'), nor the arsenokoitai(amounts to 'bedder of men,' or in gay parlance, 'top') could inherit the Kingdom.  These words are sometimes translated as 'effeminate' and 'homosexual,' respectively, though these are very poor translations.

Would you explain her argument further?

- N

ACtually the bible straight up talked about transsexuals and sex change and how God made only man and women physically not just spiritually. In the new testament also. ANd It's a NKJV.

Quote from: Charles321 on May 12, 2010, 06:00:07 AM
ACtually the bible straight up talked about transsexuals and sex change and how God made only man and women physically not just spiritually. In the new testament also. ANd It's a NKJV.

Not in the one i have.

Quote from: Charles321 on May 12, 2010, 06:00:07 AM
ACtually the bible straight up talked about transsexuals and sex change and how God made only man and women physically not just spiritually. In the new testament also. ANd It's a NKJV.

You might want to cite verses for that - it's a pretty extreme claim.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 12, 2010, 06:40:49 AM
Not in the one i have.

or the one i have and believe me when i first came out as a lesbian 20 something years ago i scoured the bible for any references

OK. WEll then I might talk to her about it again. I think the bible is a new king james version. That's what my church uses. And most other people.

Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 07:43:40 PMwhat about when someone says that God doesn't make mistakes and you were born this way for a reason?

I'm not a christian by any stretch of the word, but you know, one can twist that to make one's own point.

If god doesn't make mistakes, then he deliberately made you transgender. This might be because he wishes for you to do whatever it takes to be the real you, like a test of your strength.
It's not up to anyone to say why god made you this way or what he wants you to do about it, but a lot of people who believe in god believe that he speaks to you through your heart's deepest desires, and so, if you really, deep down, want to correct your body to fit the soul that god gave you, then maybe that's because god is telling you that that is what you have to do...

Or something to that effect.

Late to the party as well, but I don't see anywhere in my version either (Good News bible). It talks about "homosexual perverts" - which I read as just that; perverts who are wicked in other ways, guys who take advantage of other men for their own pleasure, or are willing to be used in that way where there's no love involved. (Not judging anyone here, honest - I don't want a flame war.) I'd be very interested to see what other verses have been brought into this discussion.

I can't stand it when people use God or His word like this. God doesn't make mistakes, damn right - I like Miniar's suggestion, and have a couple of my own:

- He wants to challenge society's narrow view of what should and shouldn't be
- He wants to use people like us, and the experiences we go through, in order to reach out to others in this situation. Bit like I'm doing now, in fact.

Want a bible verse to keep you going? Check my sig There are plenty of others saying how we have no right to judge each other; another good one is where Jesus tells those about to stone an adulteress, "If anyone here is without sin, let him throw the first stone." And the stoning of adulterers was actually a law written in Leviticus - the same book that says man shall not lie with man

Good luck

I'll put the verses on here tonight. WOrd by word from the bible.

@Charles:  You don't have to post them word for word, just the reference.  Biblegateway.com has any version of the Bible you could possibly want, so we'll be able to read them in the NKJV since that's what you're using.

I do have to wonder if this should be moved to the Spirituality/Christianity subforum as this has kind of gotten away from being a ftm issue.

YEah I know its gotten more off ftm topic. But since it started here I was gonna put them here. IF anyone wants, I can put the verses on a new topic on the Christianity/spirituality section or I can forget about it.

Not sure if this would help...  Matthew 19:12

"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

THat might help. I'LL show my mom it.

Whoa, I didn't notice that this wasn't in the spirituality forum. Charles, this really is a religious issue. I'm going to move it.

OK. GO ahead

When all else fails, basically tell her it's your life, you need to do what is best for you, and your choices are between YOU and GOD, period.  And you'll have to answer to him on judgment day.

Trying to argue the Bible will be futile.

The Bible doesn't specifically say anything about transgendered individuals.  And one line about homosexuals.

You could ask her if she thinks disobedient children should be stoned to death.  And if not, why  not, because the Bible says to.

Just saying.

Jay

Charles I've very sorry that you're mom is reacting like this.. every time I hear someone on here say how negatively their parents are to their transness it makes me that much more thankful for my own mom. I know I'm late to this, and others have said it.. but here are some bible verses that I used on a friend who wanted to pick and choose verses on me:


"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid."  (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."  (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)


The Bible itself states that you are not to nit pick what to believe in. It also says that "there is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you- who are who are you to judge your neighbor?" (James 4:12) Anyone who trys to pass judgment on another with Christianity is themselves being un-Christian. For "If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen ." -(1 John 4:20) I would also assume that all of this is of coarse troubling to you. Not only do you have to come to terms with your gender identity, but you have to weigh that against your beliefs. If your mother wants to quote Corinthians to you she should go to 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 first. It states that God comforts us in our troubles so that we can comfort those in trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. To me what she's doing is again un- Christian, because it's an attack rather than a comfort in a time when you're going through a personal trouble/struggle. You can quote verses all day. But at the end of the day the inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it.

As Jay says, arguing the Bible is futile.

It's a book about interpertation.

Some of us see it as an historical record. As Christians, we take the words of Jesus to be paramount. Everything else is therefore compared to those. That tends to cancel out most of it. That doesn't deminish the significance of the Bible. It demonstrtates why Jesus was needed. between delivering the 10 Commandments and Jesus, so much of was added, generally for the convienence of those in authority.

Others choose to see it as a rigid statement. Contradictions are dismissed and suitable interpertations applied. So many different interpertations.

But there is little or no point in arguing with those that take the latter view. In any case, Jesus indicated that we shouldn't.