THanks Evan. That helps

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 11, 2010, 07:42:29 PM
Let's hope you mom doesn't find Deuteronomy 22:5...

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

Another good reason to ignore the Bible...

Not if you understand the science of textual criticism (which goes far beyond religious writings)

The above quoted verse is part of the Levitical law.

Which not even Orthodox Jews practice in it's entirety (when is the last time you heard of them stoning anyone, which is the prescribed punishment for many things including adultery)and no one else even claims to.

No thinking Christian (and conceded many of them are NOT "thinking" when it comes to the Bible) would claim that the Levitical law is applicable to the modern Christian.

There may well be reasons to ignore the Bible from your point of view, but the fact that it happens to record an ancient legal code that is in no way held to apply in our day isn't one of them.

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Post Merge: May 15, 2010, 10:07:12 PM

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Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 07:43:40 PM
OK. I'M not trying to have a religious talk right now (cause I know that would turn out bad) but what about when someone says that God doesn't make mistakes and you were born this way for a reason? HAs anyone ever mentioned this to you guys?

I got that from a few folks, but I countered with an argument none of them have had an answer - from the Bible or otherwise - for.

which is as follows:

a great many babies are born in some way which we, as compassionate adults, try to correct or at least wish we could. cleft palette? Spina Bifida? Autistic? whatever....if we CAN correct a birth defect, we DO.

No Christian (except the fringe folks who think no human medicine should be used and prayer only is our resort) would argue that a child born with a correctable birth defect should NOT be corrected because "God made them that way and we shouldn't interfere"

Now, the person will come back and say "what's wrong with you isn't a birth defect"

But that doesn't disprove that these are children that "God made that way" (by THEIR logic) that we are all too happy to alter.

so right there the "if you were born this way (whatever way it happens to be) it's proof god wanted you this way and you should leave it alone" argument falls apart.

Furthermore, there are thousands of examples of things in the world being something other than what anyone can reasonably argue is the way God would want them (assuming here the Christian God described in the Bible)

Is it "God's will" that earthquakes or tornadoes or floods kill or cripple many? Are cancers and heart attacks and car wrecks "God's Will"?

or are they symptoms of a fallen world (again, assuming Christian theology here) as the Bible tells us?

and if indeed we live in a fallen world where bad things happen and people are sick or crippled or injured or dieing because things happen that are not God's will - then how can we argue that "since you were born female it MUST be God's will that you be a female" anymore than we can argue "since you have cancer it MUST be god's will that you die of cancer"?

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Post Merge: May 15, 2010, 11:08:59 PM

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Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 08:08:35 PM
K. THAnks guys. Here it goes

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Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 08:13:55 PM

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SHes gotten me with 1 Corinthians 6:9 

that verse has nothing to do with you.

I've already written what it said. It mentioned transsesvites and sex changes not just homosexuality.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 16, 2010, 09:45:47 PM
CORINTHIANS 6:9-10

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I see no mention of transsexuals or SRS.
If 'effeminate' is supposed to refer to trans women, then as a trans guy, you're safe.

I actually think it's generally agreed by people who study the original text that that pair (translated effeminate men and homosexual offenders) refers to gay bottoms and tops, respectively.

Quote from: Kvall on May 17, 2010, 01:09:26 AM
In the context of male temple prostitution and idolatrous worship.

Exactly.

In other words, they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with trans men, unless you also happen to be a gay temple prostitute or a patron of same.

Except that letter was written to a specific community.

At a time when there were far fewer people around and practically no mass communications.

We can only speculate, of course, but it seems more likely that what was being emphasised was the specific traditions of that community, which should be respected.

Jesus taught us to respect the laws of man when they don't interfere with the law of God.

I'm pretty certain, in that same collection, there is a directive that men should pray with their heads uncovered while women must cover theirs, for example.

Rendering unto....

As Christians, our priority is the word of Jesus.

DO you think 1 Corinthians 15:44 would help? FRom what I've heard other people say about natural and spiritual body.

"it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44

this just says that you are born in your physical body, but raised unto heaven in your spiritual body/soul... and says that if there is a physical body then it also has a soul, which many other passages throughout the bible also state. If you want to go this route, showing your mom that there is a difference between your physical and spiritual bodies, I would think that Ecclesiastes 11:5 would be a better choice:


"As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of the woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything."

It clearly distinguishes between the body and the spirit, says that humans don't know when (AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HOW) the spirit enters the physical form, and states that humans do not know how God works. To me this would be the best choice if you chose to continue down this path. Other than that maybe you should think about finding a gay friendly church in your area and talking to the pastor there, maybe even with your mom? because no matter what passage you use you're still going to lose charles. you'll find one in support, she will find one to refute yours.. it's a never ending cycle because there is no clear cut yes or no in the old or new testament about transsexuals. in my opinion your best hope is to prove that as a fact rather than to use the bible to prove that you're right. once you do that then maybe you can move on and deal with any personal issues with you being transgendered that your mom has. since the bible doesn't state that God has a problem with it.

temple prostitution and idolatrous worship

That pretty much sums up Modern American and Western culture and civilization.

I like the verse "There is no male or female".

Well if they would only follow their hymns

In Christ there is no East or West,
In Him no South or North;
But one great fellowship of love
Throughout the whole wide earth.

In Him shall true hearts everywhere
Their high communion find;
His service is the golden cord,
Close binding humankind.

Join hands, then, members of the faith,
Whatever your race may be!
Who serves my Father as His child
Is surely kin to me.

In Christ now meet both East and West,
In Him meet North and South;
All Christly souls are one in Him
Throughout the whole wide earth.

Alternatively, you could ask her how big a family gathering should be held when she is burned to death for wearing mixed threads in her clothing.
You can't cherry pick if you are going to be a literalist, which seems to be a movement which only started in the US in the 19th Century.