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military

Started by Inkwe Mupkins, May 18, 2010, 02:01:52 PM

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Inkwe Mupkins

i wanted to join the National guard but was wondering if I could enlist as a male. or would that be illegal.
Islam means peace.
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insanitylives

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Squirrel698

Hi!  I wanted to as well, in fact I was going to make that a goal for shaping up.  Unfortunately I found out that we will not be able to.  They do a mandatory full examination and as soon as they find out we are not bio men it's all over.  Even if we do go all the way and get the surgery it would still be listed as a genital defect which would disqualify us.

 
"It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul"
Invictus - William Ernest Henley
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Little Dragon

Can't you enlist if youre legally a male? Ie, recieved new birth certificate stating youre male, etc.
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Squirrel698

@Little Dragon.  Nope unfortunately, which is really bloody unfair and pointless.  If I want to serve they should let me serve.  I won't serve as a woman of course because that's not what I am.
"It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul"
Invictus - William Ernest Henley
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Little Dragon

Quote from: Squirrel698 on May 18, 2010, 02:12:26 PM
@Little Dragon.  Nope unfortunately, which is really bloody unfair and pointless.  If I want to serve they should let me serve.  I won't serve as a woman of course because that's not what I am.

Huh? That's stupid if you're male and physically fit enough to enlist then you should be permitted :\ Why do they rject your applications? Merely because you're trans? Where's trans equality in this?
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Arch

Quote from: Little Dragon on May 18, 2010, 02:25:26 PMMerely because you're trans? Where's trans equality in this?

It's right up there with gay equality, mate. Or way down there, I should say. At the bottom of the priorities list. Squint hard and you might catch a glimpse...no, I guess not.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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notyouraverageguy

So you can't join the military, unless you join as a female, because you were born female???... how is that gonna work when your dl has the male gender marker, you look male, &have a flat chest... I don't get it.

They want ppl to join so bad, but they won't accept gays nor trans... makes no sense to me.
Smh.
Gender expression is NOT gender identity.

Defective Catastrophe.
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Adio

There was a time when I wanted to join the Air Force.  But I knew I couldn't.  First of all, I'm out of shape.  And second, I knew they wouldn't let me join as a male (I also couldn't openly be anything but straight). 

It doesn't matter so much anymore though.  I support our troops and veterans, but I do not support war of any kind.  So they definitely wouldn't want me :laugh:

My fear with the repeal of DADT is that the LGB population will be allowed to serve openly.  But the transgender population will not.
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kyril

They won't accept anyone with any medical condition that requires ongoing medication. No diabetics, no epileptics, no hypertensives, nobody with a mood disorder, not even people with severe acne if they need prescription medication to manage it. You even need a waiver for ADHD, and you're only eligible for the waiver if you haven't taken meds since childhood.

So yeah, trans people who need hormones are right out. If you don't take hormones or want surgery or a diagnosis or ongoing counseling (at least for the time being), then you can enlist, but as your birth sex. I did. It was actually a really positive experience - the only parts I hated were, predictably, the sex-segregated parts.

And there is literally no way you're going to get them to let transitioned trans people join. None. Post-op trans women have a history of major surgery which requires extensive self-care. Trans men need to travel with a controlled substance that a lot of cis male servicemembers would just love to get their hands on. Trans men and women both require ongoing medication, and the military can't 100% guarantee the sustained availability of medications in the field. We're not being treated any worse than someone with diabetes.

Oh, btw, it has absolutely nothing to do with DADT. DADT would only affect you if you (a) identify as gay or lesbian with respect to your birth sex, or (b) engage in sexual activity with someone of your birth sex. Your gender identity is utterly irrelevant. Your gender expression is also largely irrelevant except to the extent that it clashes with applicable military regulations (for instance, you have to wear the dress uniforms of your birth sex - if you're lucky, you get a job like mine where you live in the unisex working uniforms - and you're assigned to the sleeping quarters of your birth sex).


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Little Dragon

Quote from: kyril on May 18, 2010, 03:55:27 PM
They won't accept anyone with any medical condition that requires ongoing medication. No diabetics, no epileptics, no hypertensives, nobody with a mood disorder, not even people with severe acne if they need prescription medication to manage it. You even need a waiver for ADHD, and you're only eligible for the waiver if you haven't taken meds since childhood.

So yeah, trans people who need hormones are right out. If you don't take hormones or want surgery or a diagnosis or ongoing counseling (at least for the time being), then you can enlist, but as your birth sex. I did. It was actually a really positive experience - the only parts I hated were, predictably, the sex-segregated parts.

And there is literally no way you're going to get them to let transitioned trans people join. None. Post-op trans women have a history of major surgery which requires extensive self-care. Trans men need to travel with a controlled substance that a lot of cis male servicemembers would just love to get their hands on. Trans men and women both require ongoing medication, and the military can't 100% guarantee the sustained availability of medications in the field. We're not being treated any worse than someone with diabetes.

Oh, btw, it has absolutely nothing to do with DADT. DADT would only affect you if you (a) identify as gay or lesbian with respect to your birth sex, or (b) engage in sexual activity with someone of your birth sex. Your gender identity is utterly irrelevant. Your gender expression is also largely irrelevant except to the extent that it clashes with applicable military regulations (for instance, you have to wear the dress uniforms of your birth sex - if you're lucky, you get a job like mine where you live in the unisex working uniforms - and you're assigned to the sleeping quarters of your birth sex).

I was thinking exactly this, earlier. Like, it seems impossible for the army to supply you with hormone drugs when theyre in the middle of a war. Like imagine a transman needing testosterone while touring in Iraq!
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kyril

Quote from: Little Dragon on May 18, 2010, 05:21:45 PM
I was thinking exactly this, earlier. Like, it seems impossible for the army to supply you with hormone drugs when theyre in the middle of a war. Like imagine a transman needing testosterone while touring in Iraq!
Yep. Won't happen.

There are just some issues where the "GLB" needs to be separated from the "T," and military service is one of them. We T's can't have it both ways - if transsexuality is a medical issue, then it should be treated the same as any other medical issue. If it's not a medical issue, then we can't expect the military to indulge the medical transition aspect of it, any more than they indulge body modification for other nonmedical reasons.

Strangely, though, the military is one area where we're actually ahead of the GLBs - there's no law mandating that we be discharged for being gender-variant. And as long as we're not caught up in DADT first for being attracted to/sleeping with members of our birth sex, if we are discharged for gender issues the process is somewhat more humane. There's no trial, just a regular administrative medical discharge where our privacy is protected to the same extent that it would be if we had another medical condition.

I do think there's some room for improvement on the gender expression front. There's no reason servicemembers shouldn't be able to choose the gender of uniform they wear, provided that a proper fit can be achieved, and provided that the member conforms to the hair/grooming standards for the uniform they're wearing.


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Adio

@Kyril:  I honestly didn't know all of that, that those with any medical condition requiring medication could not be enlisted.  It makes a whole lot more sense now.
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KaleisGood4U

Quote from: Squirrel698 on May 18, 2010, 02:12:26 PM
@Little Dragon.  Nope unfortunately, which is really bloody unfair and pointless.  If I want to serve they should let me serve.  I won't serve as a woman of course because that's not what I am.

It's sort of unintentionally hilarious, because if you DID enlist, being boarded with the women, there would be greater problems amongst the other soldiers.  I doubt whether or not you calmly explain to female soldiers that you were born with a vagina that they're going to like you in their showers if you're transitioned.
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notyouraverageguy

What if you just got off T for a while?

So, ppl with asthma can't join either, cause they need their inhaler?
Gender expression is NOT gender identity.

Defective Catastrophe.
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KaleisGood4U

Quote from: ccc on May 18, 2010, 06:21:35 PM
What if you just got off T for a while?

So, ppl with asthma can't join either, cause they need their inhaler?

In the army, absolutely not.  I come from an army family.
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Martin

Huh, that kinda sucks, I never really thought of that. Not that I have any desire or intent to join the military. I just like the idea that I could if I wanted to, if you know what I mean. Except, apparently I couldn't. Bummer.
"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists."
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Arch

A trans man who enlists as a man and goes off T is going to have a hard time meeting the physical qualifications.

I've thought about this quite a bit. I can find no truly compelling reason that a trans man can't enlist as a man if he gets his hormones from a pellet. But if he's serving in the field when the pellet needs replacing, special arrangements would have to be made. I don't know if the service would be cool with that.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Muddy

So, I'll put in my five or so cents...

My discharge will be effective in July, and I spent a fair amount of time researching and speaking with legal professionals before I made the decision to accept that discharge.

You can get a waiver for many medical conditions, asthma being one of them, depending on the severity of the condition, and how much the recruiter you're working with, is willing to fight for you.  Medical waivers involve a lot of paperwork, so the recruiter has to be motivated to do all of the follow-up.

There are very few "hard and fast" rules with regards to medical conditions and military service.  There are waivers for *almost* everything. 

Transsexuality is viewed two separate ways by the military.
If you are a post-op [bottom] transsexual, you have a genital defect that precludes military service.  Persons with intersex conditions or other genital abnormality are also denied service.

If you are pre-op, you are seen to be suffering from a mental condition that is determined to be incompatible with military service.  The paragraphs in the regulations group transsexuality alongside paraphilias and personality disorders [at least, in the Army regs.]
Essentially, conditions for which no waivers will be granted.

While it is true that there are persons serving who may have incurred genital injury as the result of accident or disease while in the military, or who have developed psychological disorders through similar means, their conditions are often handled differently, largely because the military has already invested a sum of money into training them, and its financially wise to attempt to retain them if their condition permits, on a case-by-case basis.

There is a higher presumption that *they* will be able to serve with their conditions, because they've already demonstrated an ability to do so, prior to the development of the condition. 

Even among the "healthy" recruit population, there is a certain degree of attrition, so the applicants are screened for any conditions that might increase their risk of being incapable of performing their duties.

DADT doesn't factor into this debate.  Frankly, a discharge under DADT is often favorable, as compared to being discharged for having been "outted" as trans, since DADT ensures that the discharge for homosexuality will be Honorable.  A person being discharged for being trans could be subject to a variety of discharges, depending on the command climate and the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the person's trans status.

For example, should one be determined to have taken hormones, they could be discharged with a General [which forfeits some of the educational and VA entitlements] discharge, or a Bad Conduct discharge, for misconduct [drug abuse].

Some commands have been known to give Bad Conduct discharges on the basis that most psychologists agree that transsexuality exists either from birth, or very early childhood, and therefore the condition was preexisting, support a discharge for Fraudulent Enlistment [and the forfeiture of ALL benefits].

I would strongly advise against entering the service under false pretenses, that is, detransitioning and enlisting and serving as one's biological sex.  Your enlistment is at least 8 years long.  8 years is a VERY long time to struggle with gender dysphoria, essentially untreated.  Not to mention the constant fear of being "discovered", and losing everything.  Trust me- I'm just completing my eight years of service.  It has NOT been fun.

Yes, the recruiter will tell you that you can enlist for as little as two years, and on the surface, that *is* true.  But your actual service obligation is always 8 years.  You may simply spend a degree of that time in the "Inactive Ready Reserve".  That means you are essentially "out" of the military, but subject to recall.

________________
*deep breath*
________________

With all that said...
I do forsee a day when transpeople can serve openly.

Foreign militaries already permit it.  It is false to say that a person with a condition that requires ongoing medical treatment and monitoring cannot serve.  Many personnel do so, already.  I've served the past three years with diagnosed PTSD, depression and ADHD, all of which have required ongoing medical treatment, to include bloodwork to ensure that my medications have not risen to toxic levels in my blood stream- no different than as required by HRT.

There *will* be a day when transpeople serve openly...  but probably not until most of us have surpassed the maximum enlistment age.

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tekla

You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight.
          -Barry Goldwater
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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