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I have officially turned from bad to miserable in my faith

Started by Walter, May 20, 2010, 05:41:09 AM

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Walter

As some have known from my last topic in the Christianity topic, I sometimes don't feel right in my relationship with God. I've never felt right with Him ever since I came out as bisexual. Ever since then I have been questioning on what God thinks of me and if He hates me or what. I would pray more often but rather than seeing it as a pleasure I see it as a chore. I feel like I need to be spiritually just right in order to even talk to God. I rarely pray because of this. I don't feel God's spirit in me anymore. I don't know if it's because God took it away or if it's my own self pushing it away because of guilt or whatever the reason.

I've felt like this for a while until a couple days ago when it just got way worse

I had known that supposedly in The Bible there was a verse that was used when talking about Transsexuality. I was so afraid to read it that I didn't bother reading it. I just told myself every time I doubted "Why would God hate transsexuals? They were born that way for a reason. He made them. I'm sure He's A-ok with it" And then I was reading around the boards here on Christianity and I think I found the verse. I read it without looking for it but I just wanted to read it once and for all

I don't know if reading it did me any good because the verse went something like this

"Men shall not dress in women's clothes and women shall not dress in men's clothes. The Lord detests these people"

Or something like that...

After I read that I felt utterly crushed...I..I don't know what to think about that. I try to please God so much but I feel like I always fail. And now I read this and feel that God hates me if I continue to be transgender...

I mean..I've never really cried over being transgender before but right now I feel like I could if I let myself. Maybe. But that verse just....it hurt so much to read it. I'm spiritually miserable right now. I feel like I can't pray because if God hates me that much I feel like He'll ignore my prayers.

I don't know what to do....I've tried to go back to living as Female but I'm so miserable when I do. One of my pleasures in this world is when I can live as Male whether it be online or in real life. I feel like it's my true self. And I don't understand why God would be mad at me for it.

I'm sorry for the rant but I'm hurting so bad right now..I just need a shoulder or something to lean on. Anything will do. I just feel so lost..
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Hermione01

I'm sorry you're feeling so down. I also question my faith and wonder why God tests me constantly.
God does love you, but maybe he's testing you too. I am not a strong believer in many of the Bible passages as we misinterpret them or they haven't stood the test of time.

We have changed and evolved, which I believe is part of God's plan. We have to adapt, and God loves you whether you present male or female.

Why would God care in the grand scheme of things? I really don't believe God would judge us for trying to adapt and survive, whatever way we can. To God we are human beings, and most of us are trying to be the best we can be, all the rest is just trimmings.   :)
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Walter

Quote from: Kvall on May 20, 2010, 06:25:03 AM
Christianity is not about following a set of rules; it is about a God who became one of us, who experienced our trials and suffered with us, and who outstretched a hand of love and grace to raise us up with him.

Once in a while I need to be told this because right now, I'm under the impression that Christianity is just about following rules and hoping you follow them right and make it to Heaven in the end

I just sometimes feel like God has no compassion for His followers...and all that He expects us to do is just follow orders with no questioning

I'm under that impression a lot..but when someone reminds me that God loved us enough to send His Son here on Earth to be crucified for our sins...it's good to remember that

And Hermione01 said something good too. About God not judging us to adapt and survive. I could survive as living Female for the rest of my life but...it might be a life half lived and..I thought God wanted us to live life to the fullest....so..I don't see why He'd hate me for living life to the fullest
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Sandy

Rolf:

Kvall put it so well I doubt that I could add any thing relevant.

But I will say this, God knows you regardless of whatever clothes you wear. He also knows you regardless of whatever body you wear.  God sees your soul and that is all that matters.

And God loves you.  The real you.  He loves you because your soul is good.  Hold on to that.  Because it is the truth.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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tekla

When one goes back and starts reading that stuff out of context, remember that just about all of it is pretty much considered wrong.  In one of the few great moments in TV history, the West Wing answers some of this in this famous scene.  The radio host is modeled on Dr. Laura.

http://vodpod.com/watch/1397951-the-west-wing-president-bartlet-delivers-a-seriously-
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Cindy

Quote from: tekla on May 20, 2010, 06:31:26 PM
When one goes back and starts reading that stuff out of context, remember that just about all of it is pretty much considered wrong.  In one of the few great moments in TV history, the West Wing answers some of this in this famous scene.  The radio host is modeled on Dr. Laura.

http://vodpod.com/watch/1397951-the-west-wing-president-bartlet-delivers-a-seriously-

I have never seen that before.  Probably because I have never watched the program. Possibly the most useful few minutes of TV I have seen for a long time. Truth outs.
Thanks Tekla
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LordKAT

I have seen a few episodes but that was worth watching and not previously viewed by me.
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Suzy

Quote from: Kvall on May 20, 2010, 06:25:03 AM
Context is everything, my friend. I understand that you are struggling, and that one alternate viewpoint might not convince you. But here is my understanding of this passage, and its relevance to Christianity --

"The Lord detests these people" is an absolute mistranslation. The Hebrew word used is to'evah, which is frequently translated as abomination, though this is a much stronger and more negative word than to'evah usually is used for. A more accurate translation is "ritually unclean," and almost always is used in the context of idolatry. This is the word used to describe things like having sex with a woman who is having a period. It does not translate to sin.

So why might this be prohibited in particular for the ancient Hebrews? There is a cultural explanation.

Many of the laws in the Old Testament were meant to distinguish God's followers from nearby cultures and Pagan cults and religions. It was extremely common at the time to encounter fertility cults that worshiped idols. In some cases, male temple prostitutes would don women's clothing to represent a female goddess, and have sex with patrons of the temple. In other words, to behave like an idol-worshipper is what was prohibited.

Moreover, if we accept the truth of our trans identities, then this passage supports us. You are a man, aren't you? Then this passage should read to you as telling you not to wear women's clothes.

That's not really important, though, because the entire passage is virtually irrelevant to Christians. Christ fulfilled the law. The only part of the law that remains for Christians are as follows: "love God" and "love thy neighbor." Any commandment you find in the Old Testament is null and void for us Christians, because the legalism of the law has been replaced with the spirit of the law (which is love). This is one of the basic tenets of Christianity. Remember that Jesus despised it when the ultra-religious Pharisees kept to the laws perfectly, yet had no love in their hearts. And Jesus felt and acted with nothing but love for the downtrodden, the oppressed, and the sinners. Christianity is not about following a set of rules; it is about a God who became one of us, who experienced our trials and suffered with us, and who outstretched a hand of love and grace to raise us up with him.

Excellent response.  Thank you so much, Kvall!

And Rolf, hang in there, this will pass.  If you want to talk outside here, drop me a note.

Hugs,
Kristi
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spacial

Like, I suspect, many others, I don't watch much TV and didn't see that program.

But that is a really good clip. Kinda says it all really. People cherry picking what they like.

I have a few similar quotes. I'll be adding those.

Have to say, I've aways liked Martin Sheen's work. His timing is brilliant and delivery so understated. Amazing that his two sons, both entirely different actors themselves, are equally tallented and intelegent.
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Anima

I think the verse is in Deuteronomy as well as other verses, where men with damage to the testicles can't go to the temple, where it says you cant eat pig or shellfish, where it says you can't use clothes with two different types of cloth, what animals to sacrifice in what situation etc.

But all that is not mentioned in the NT and some parts of it is also changed or clearly made obsolete. Romans explain that this law of Moses is something that was given to show men what sin is, and not a kind of tool for salvation. It is not only written that no man can follow this law, but also that the law increases sin. And even if everyone are condemned by the law, John writes that the son of God didn't come to earth to condemn people, but to save people. So this is also why it is written that we should not follow the law, but the son of God.
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Amy1177

Hey Walter,

I read a bunch of books by Sylvia Browne  particularly the Journey of the Soul Series.  Absolutely wonderful books.  As I was reading through it all it just absolutely felt right.  You should try giving them a good read through.  I think they will help you get back on your path.
We were all born this way.  Don't let world stupidness to bring you down to its level.  Rise above and love yourself.   ;)
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Dryad

Well; here's an Atheist's view. (Though an educated one. :P)
Basically, what you're referring to is Old Testament stuff. Leviticus, mostly. Read that book, and please keep in mind what most Christians today recognise as Christianity, and you will notice this: Religion evolves. It doesn't stay the same over time. Ideas, ideals and beliefs differ.

While the original God of the Hebrews was a wrathful, spiteful, and yes, evil deity of fire and brimstone, the God of Christianity is not. Yet they are one and the same; the evil one is simply a far outdated concept. There's quite a lot of history involved, here. Firstly, a lot of changes happened in Babylon, where the people simply needed a deity that did not advocate killing everyone else. Simply because, with a religion like that, the people were doomed. This is the time when Genesis was written.
Then, a long time after, with the Jews having settled and reinforced religious law, a man named Jesus came along, and instigated a completely different point of view in Jewish religion: God is Love. (And vice versa.) His teachings created a whole new Jewish religion, though it was short-lived. However, word travelled to Greece, and a few hundred years later, a form of what we might now call Christianity was born, followed quickly by Islam in the Arab countries.
Jesus of Nazareth basically did away with the sin-ridden laws of old Judaism, and taught compassion and unconditional love in it's stead. In a way, he changed things so much that, through his teachings, his followers were delivered from sin altogether, as long as they showed unconditional love.
I'd say: Stick to those teachings, instead. What good are fear and sin? They'll only get in the way of understanding, compassion, and unconditional love.
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Walter

That's what kind of gets me sometimes

How in the New Testament, God is portrayed as being loving and nice..but in other parts of The Bible, they seem to portray Him as being..different

It frightens me. But I guess if anyone knows how God is, it would be Jesus so listening to His word is probably the best thing to do

@Amy

I'll look her up
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spacial

Dryad

The question over these dual personalities has bothered many people. In the early Church, there was speculation of two gods, that of the Jews and that of Jesus. Marcionism, for example.

If I may, I would like to offer this perspective here.

This is partly based upon what is recorded in the Bible, partly on what we know of the ancient history of the period, Egypt especially, partly on human behaviour and to be honest, partly my own faith.

We know that ancient Egypt was an enormously powerful nation and continued as such for almost 2000 years. The ancient monuments that exist today represent a few hints of what would have been there.

Imagine if, 4000 years from now, people began to dig America. They might find a few statues and such, but most of what is there now, would have long since disappeared.

So, we have a wealthy society and a huge society.

The notion that everyone was in slavery, oppressed, beaten and exploited, is clearly a nonsense. Humans don't function properly when they are firghtened. They become ill. They develop a number of serious diseases any of which would make them unsuitable to do any work at all.

Taking the ancient monuments in isolation. Based upon what we know of the technology that existed at the time, the work was very labour intensive. It has been estimated that it would have taken hundreds of thousands of workers.

Those that built the monuments, for example, would have needed enormous amounts of food. They would need periods of rest and recuperation. They would have needed reasonably decent places to live. They would have had families, not least to produce the next generation of workers. (Unless they all lived for 2000 years!!).The food would have needed to be produced by farming. It would have needed to be transported and distributed.

So, what we already have, just based around the monuments, is a complex society that involved, farming, transport, trade, banking, health care, child care, social welfare, policing and law, recretation and enterainment.

Not quite the reluctant slaves being beaten to death.

To build the monuments, this society would have needed to be enormously wealthy. There is ample evidence that ancient Egypt was. Basic economics tells us that wealth isn't a matter of accumulation, it is generation of wealth. To generate the levels of wealth that allowed surpluses to be poured into these monuments clearly indicates that the relative wealth of ancient Egypt surpassed even that of modern America. And this continued for most of a 2000 year period.

Such a land would have been a Mecca for people from far and wide. People must have traveled from many parts of the known world to live and work there.

This indicates enormous multicultural cities. This in turn, indicates government based upon consensus. It is concievable that efforts would have been made to integrate people. But with such huge numbers from so many different cultures, even the most determined indoctrination would have needed to compormise in the face of some particularly ingrained cultures. This indicates that the nature of the society continually changed, as has happend in the short period that America has existed, for example.

Another basic rule of economics is that periods of growth are always followed by periods of recession. So, we can assume that there were periods of poverty, just as there were periods of wealth.

We know from many of the ancient monuments that the name Moses was not uncommon among the Egyptian aristocricy. The claim that the Moses of the Book of Exodus was a baby in a basket is almost certainly fanciful. It is more likely that Moses was an Egyptian aristocrat, possibly a governer of a provence.

During periods of serious economic down turn, there would be serious discontent among people. Moses may have taken the opportnity to establish himself as something more than a governor. Perhaps the rest of Egypt decided to blame the people of this provance for their woes, not uncommon in any complex society.

For reasons we can only speculate, Moses eventually lead his people out of Egypt.

What can we assume, with reasonable safety, about these people?

Exodus 12:37 tells us that there were 600,000 men of foot at the start of their journey. These represent able bodied men, presumably young.

From this we can reasonably extrapolate a total.

Most of these men would have had wives. Some several. So we can resonably add at least another 600,000 to that figure.

Many of these men would have had realtives, parents, grandparents, uncles aunts. We can reasonably add another million.

Most of these men would have had children. If we take a minimal figure, we can assume two for each man, that adds over a million.

In total, that comes to about three million people.

Now we know that figures can be exagerated in ancient texts. But even reducing this figure by a third, comes to about a million people.

If we want to be really drastic, we can reduce it even more. But any reasonable estimate stil puts us into the hundreds of thousands.

This is a lot of people. To suggest that, after several generations, living in a multicultural society like Egypt, that all of these people were decended from one family is unlikely to say the least. So, it is a reasonable assumption that this was a multicultural group, from many different back grounds.

Many of the stories of the wandering of these people are most likely fanciful. But managing such a huge group would have been an enormous task.

It is an article of our faith that God gave Moses the 10 Commandments. Even if you reject this, these commandments would have formed the basis for a legal system.

The Commandments are: 1 Don't worship any other god, 2 Don't worship any idol, 3 Don't abuse the name of God, 4 Rest one day in seven, 5 Honor your father and mother, 6 Don't kill, 7 Don't commit adultery, 8 Don't steal, 9 Don't lie about other people, 10 Don't covet others goods or relationships.

The immediate problem here is the 6th commandment. Removing the authority to kill removes from governments a central point of their power. They cannot wage war. They cannot kill those that don't conform to their authority.

So, what we have is a huge number of people of diverse backgounds, nominally under the authorty of a legal code based upon 10 Commandments.

One of the first tasks would have been to create social cohesion. To establish they they need a common history and herritage. They all had come from Egypt, but had rejected it. It is concievable that they would have accumulated their traditions and stories. This explains the Book of Genesis. It explains why the story of Lot, for example, is so out of keeping with the themes of other stories.

In the 1500 or so years between Moses and Jesus, the laws were clearly adapted, especially to allow for killing in defiance of the 6th Commandment.

However, when we read the teachings of Jesus we find that He repeatedly emphasised the absolute nature of these laws. He expanded them and clarified others. The 3rd for example, has been clarified to forbid us from judgeing each other.

The teachings of Jesus indicate that the various laws in the interviening period, for the most part, are invalid. Many involve killing while most involved judging each other. But the intent of the original Commandments, as clarificed by Jesus, suggests that none of us have the authority to judge and each of us is responsible for our own souls.

What this demonstrates is that God did not change from being vengful to being kind. God is what He is. The interpertation of the nature of God and the imposition of His supposed will changed and does so continuously.

Those that, even today, claim authority to kil, to judge and condemn are not following Jesus teachings at all.

They are either politically motivated or are being misled.
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Dryad

Spacial: It's too bad I don't have any sources available on this topic. However, there are a few things I would like to dispute.
First of all: Your numbers. Egypt, in that time period, was not by far as civilized as you make it out to be. The library of Alexandria put it on the map, so to speak, for scholars from all over the world. (Save the Americans, obviously.) But I digress; this was from a far later date.
600.000 able-bodied men... Let's say they walk in a line of two. Each one would occupy one yard. (That's incredibly little, considering the packing and all.)
Anyway; if you'd only count men, then you'd have 300.000 metres covered. That's a stunning 300 kilometers long. Counting the elderly, wives and children, it would be relatively easy to assume that, with each able-bodied man, a following of three people came. So quadruple this number; a procession easily 1200 kilometres long.
With that many people, there is no way they'd make a journey across a sand desert, and, what's worse, they would have bled entire Ancient Egypt dry of people.

Also note that the Hebrews did not begin worshipping a singular deity with Moses. They began with Ibrahim, which was, allegedly, earlier. Anyway; there are some things where history itself simply disagrees with the bible. Also, people's beliefs in a deity is exactly that which forms the deity, in and of itself. It's to do with the uncertainty principle, if we are to assume that a deity actually exists. In such a case, it honestly doesn't matter what the deity feels/stands for. All that matters is how people perceive the deity. That is religion. One might argue that, in the grander scale of things, religion destroys it's own deity by default, but that is another discussion altogether.

Like I said before; I wish I could actually cite some sources on the origin of Abrahamic religion, as it was, as I've been taught, originally, volcano-worship, with later on aspects of Ra heavily intertwined in it's teachings.  (And it got really complicated after that. ^-^)

Nothing is ever as easy as: Coo; that bearded fella just said it's absolutely true, so it has to be! There's always a very extensive history and background to every single cultural phenomenon.

Having said that: In the end, it doesn't matter what everyone else says a deity wants of you. What you have to ask yourself is: What is my deity, for me? What does it mean, and what does it stand for? Belief is about personal perception. Not about that of someone else, but your own.
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V M

Worry not... For the invisible man loves everyone... He especially loves to hear how "baaaaaaad" you've been  >:-)
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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spacial

Dryad.

I accepted the figures are probably inflated. They are not the point. The mass movement of a large group of people is.

Also, if you read again, you will see that I illustrated, what I believe is a more adequate explaination for the stories in Genesis.

To back this I cited the story of Lot and how it is out of keeping with the nature of the other stories.

Another example is that the creation alegory appears elsewhere in the world, China for example.

The Bible is an historical narritive document. Like any historical document, it was written to suit the outlook of those who wrote it. Such historical documents are quite rare prior to about the 11th century.

I am simply attempting to put the events related into a context.

I was also attempting to suggest an explaination for your observation in #12 on the different natures of God.

I have to say, it is a little strange that someone can come to conclusions about a subject without having attempted to make even a cursory study.

But as I've suggested elsewhere, aethism is just often just another dogma.
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Dryad

I grew up as a theologist's child. My father is an acting reverend in a protestant church.
Apart from that, I did take classes on Abrahamic religions and their histories. Work-related; I'm a translator.
From that point of view, I must disagree with religious scripture being historical narrative. While some parts of it do fit in that description, a lot of other parts are purely symbolic. (Which actually makes them a lot more important.)

The creation allegory is, by the way, a very, very common theme in many religions. However, Genesis is rather unique in that it doesn't really focus on how creation came to be, but puts a lot more stress on cause and effect in prior events, through symbolism. Both parts are quite the works of genius, in that respect, when compared to most other creation myths.

As an atheist, by the way, I don't have much dogma. I have a moral code, though. And while I don't believe in the existence of deities, I do find religions in general very valuable indeed.

Edit: Since we're getting very much off-topic, I won't reply again, in this thread. Sorry for my off-topicness!
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spacial

No problem Dryad.

I was simply attempting to describe why there appeared to be two natures of God.

I do hope you find some inner peace.
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justmeinoz

Walter, you might find Karen Armstrong's book,  'A History of God' interesting as it follows the development of monotheism from pre-Abrahamic times to today.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are examined, as is the connections and conflicts between them.
The author is a former nun who left her order following her discovery that she was not possessed as they thought, but epileptic. I find that very relevant.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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