I find myself completely agreeing with Dawn.  While this may offend some it doesn't mean that I don't care about those who follow.  You don't have to be "Out" to provide support, it's just a little trickier.  I agree Sheila that today's tech makes it virtually impossible to hide, but that will not stop me from trying.

My life is my business and no one else's.  I choose who to tell and under what circumstances I will come out.  For example last Sunday I was interviewed by a member of graduate studies at York University that is researching the issues faced by the GLBT community in public washrooms.  Of course I had to out myself as they needed to know that I was a MtF TS and the interview was conducted in a less than private coffee shop on Queens University campus.  I/we signed disclosure protection agreements and I used a pseudonym, there were no pictures but the interview was recorded.  So this is a case where I was somewhat stealth, but still was able to support our community.

There is always the fear that those who transition will leave the others to wallow, and struggle without hope of support.  But I would have to say that this fear is unfounded, as you can see by the participation in Susan's, many post ops return to help where they can, even if it's under a different name.  That is one thing that will never change about Susan's.

Susan's is not made up by, run by individuals.  Just as individuals do not make Susan's.  It is the input of all members of Susan's that make this such a successful site.  Fear not as members come and members go, but Susan's will always be here to support you.

And I think I'll step down of my little box for a while

Steph

Hi Y'all,

Reading through this thread, it almost seems like the gender question...Male, Female, somewhere in between....Deep Stealth, Totally Out, somewhere in between.  Just as there is no Wrong gender, there is no wrong answer to the stealth question either.

Both "sides" have logical and cogent arguments.  No one should feel "obligated" to be a spokesperson, nor should they have to relive their struggles every day in a support group.  Conversely, if those blessed with the ability to go deep stealth never speak up, then the world will only see those who do not easily pass.

This issue, along with so many others, comes down to a personal decision.  Not every is suited to airing their struggles, regardless of subject matter.  We don't ask recovering alcoholics to wear a sign, nor are they under obligation to sponsor AA chapters.  We don't ask people who have had birth defects that have been corrected by surgery to announce it to the world...why should those who are TG be held to a different standard?

Each should be lead by their own heart and should not have to appologize for, nor defend, their choice.

Keep in mind, this is only my opinion.  If you have a different one, it's fine with me

......Laurie

Ahhh the wonderful Stealth Question has raised it's head again.....

Once upon a time we had freedom of choice, but perhaps it is trendy these days to be Transsexual and "out and proud" in the Community.

Yep.... living an annonymous life is difficult when you still live in the same city, are married to the same woman, have worked with many people there and are well known in the community, If you are happy in these circumstances, I find that wonderful that is your choice.

I transitioned to be a Woman, I transitioned to escape a past I did not like and could not endure, I left my home city (and indeed Country), because I wanted to move my life forward, not get stuck in a time warp and have to relive those painful memories day after day, forever meeting people who knew my past and my background.

I had NO choice but to transition; but I have the choice how I live my life afterwards and decided I wanted a fresh start, where no one knew my past. It is my choice If I wish to tell people that (and I have, my closest friends know..... because I wished to tell them)

Some people will never be able to move their life on, I accept that, some people will never be able to integrate into society as Female because of looks or circumstances, I accept that. Some people will always need the support and comfort they find here, perhaps for the rest of their lives, I accept that.

I don't consider myself Transsexual, That was (a) a label society has given me (b) a transient phase I went through when I transitioned from male to female (c) became totally and utterly irrelevant to me with a birth certificate that now says "Female".....

We all have those choices, mine is to be seen, remembered and loved for being a woman, who contributed to society in the way she could. I will leave the cause for Transsexual rights to others and if you are comfortable and happy in that choice, I admire you for that.

If stealth is living my life, hapilly and totally integrated into society as a woman..... that is my choice.

Buffy

I would like to add something. I have said that I haven't gone into stealth which is true. I live in the same town as I live before, 25 years and I frequent the same places. I have gone to stores and have seen people that I have worked with for long periods of time and most of them don't recognize me. I don't know if they have been told about me, I would guess they were as word gets around. I think the best one was that I had worked with this guy for over 20 years off and on and we were standing in the pharmacy line to get our meds, both of us are retired, and he accidently bumped into me and knocked something out of my hand. He appologize all over the place and picked it all up and gave it to me and in his appologies he was calling me maam and honey and all kinds of fem. names. I know he wouldnt have done that if he knew it was me. He is a redneck from day one. Unless I have talked to them or have told them and they have been pointed out by someone they don't even know. Now, I don't hide my life at all. I have been in all the local papers and on the TV and radio. The store I worked for was Fred Meyer and the whole chain, in the meat dept. knew me at that time.
So I went stealth without even trying. I will not hide in the closet ever again. If you can't accept me then I don't want anything to do with you.
Sheila

I should also clarify that the reason I keep going more and more stealth is it's just becoming harder not to.  I don't go around telling everyone I'm TS and people tend to see me as a woman, so trying to be "out" starts to be a battle as well.   That's why I have a balance.  It wasn't by choice, but rather by circumstance.

Melissa

Maybe the reason this is so important to me is I have doubts I will ever be able to pass.  I want to live as a female but not as a stereotypical female.  I recognize there is another gender out there that hasn't yet been acknowledged.  I'm referring to the grey area between the binary M-F crap society has forced down our throats.  That's where I truly live, in the grey area.

I find it sad that we feel the need to succumb to extensive surgeries, FFS, facial alterations, trach shaving, etc. just to feel comfortable with who we are.  While I may not see the value in those surgeries I strangely see an immense importance in having SRS and have considered FFS.  Some things are so deeply ingrained they can't be ignored.

So am I a phony?  I really don't know.  What I do know is what society has laid out for us doesn't fit me.  And I have found a lot of friends here with whom I connect.  So you are all either the chosen or as screwed up as me.   Live on!

Life is for the living.

Julie

QuoteMaybe the reason this is so important to me is I have doubts I will ever be able to pass.  I want to live as a female but not as a stereotypical female.  I recognize there is another gender out there that hasn't yet been acknowledged.  I'm referring to the grey area between the binary M-F crap society has forced down our throats.  That's where I truly live, in the grey area.

Julie, you pass more than fine, if you want to. I'm in agreement about the gray area though, that's where I live. When I did my year long RLT, there was no choice to go stealth if I'd wanted to, I was living in a rural town where everyone knew me, and as a musician I'm a public person. I have no desire to change my profession.

Even now, I live in between genders, some people know about me, and I have no idea what others think. Lots of people are too polite to say anything, and that's fine, I don't feel like having to explain myself every minute of the day. But if someone asks, or is a close friend, I'll tell them. I do feel it's important to help people understand gender issues so that the next generation of trans kids don't have to suffer as much pain as I did.

zythyra

I am in total agreement on how much surgery you should have. I think you should have as much as you feel comfortable haveing. I have only had GRS and that is all. I have not had FFS or my boobs done. I guess I pass fairly. I do get made every once in a while, I guess. I'm not sure as I don't pay any attention to that anymore. If they think I'm a TS then I'm a TS if they think I'm a woman then I'm a woman. In my heart and soul I'm a woman. I think that is all that counts. Julie, if that is your picture, you look great. I have a friend and she looks just like you except you are younger. You would look just like her daughter. My wife said the same. Don't ever get surgery for someone else, do it for yourself.
    I still believe in the binary crap. I just believe there is a blending of the two genders. I don't believe in a third gender.
Sheila

I don't feel like I have left one closet only to have gone into another.  I don't have to lie about my past when I talk with friends.  I've told them I have children and that I love them.  Many of my friends have met my parents.  They still don't know. 

I have no need or desire to tell my closest friends about my GRS.  They know about my religious history and most everything about me.  I have not had to lie.  Why should I?  The subject never comes up.

I do not have the blessing to be able to pass easily and blend in.  I am tall, have broad shoulders, and have a fairly masculine voice.  I make up for it with my broad smile and a perky attitude.  Those two things make it possible for me to live my life in stealth.

I am not abandoning "my kind" by going stealth.  I had to endure the worst part of my transition alone.  I did not have "my kind" there to help me.  I offer my support now because I did not have that help when I went through my most difficult times.  I would have given anything to have a resource like this back then. 

Cindi

Like some of you, I remain as stealth as I can.  It doesn't always work...

Recently a friend of mine introduced me to some of her friends.  It turned out that these friends had ALREADY been clued into my "past gender."  I asked this friend to never do this to me again....out me before I've met someone.

At work, I had a boss who would describe me to my future producer boss as a "he."  Imagine his surprise when I showed up!  My boss was endangering my livelihood and I asked him not to do that.

I'm moving to another state to hopefully begin a life where no one but my best friend knows my past.  I've asked her not to reveal my past but it's a slippery slope.  She had already talked to her good friends up there.  Sigh.

Living in Stealth - does it hurt us?  Geeeez, I'd really love to have the chance to find out!  Like others here at Susan's, I will always look forwards to coming back to Susan's to offer my two cents worth of help and suggestions, as I see it.

But back to your query....does it hurt us?  Did gays being in the closet hurt the gay cause?  Perhaps.  However, as gays and TS's are seen on television and in the movies in positive roles, I think that'll do a TON more to promoting our acceptance than OUR, individually, being OUT.  I truly think it's a generational thing.  The next generation, from what polls say, will accept gay marriage.  And presumably, US.

Added to that, as TS's transition younger and younger, the "tipping point" to mass acceptance will undoubtably arrive.  So, best not to worry too much about the here and now.  Go stealth if you want.  Don't if you don't wanna.  Just do the best you can and go out and L - I - V - E.  Otherwise, as Maude (of the movie "Harold And Maude") said, "you'll have nothing to talk about in the locker room."

Teri Anne

Well, if i may drop my two cents here (probably only worth a penny but oh well). I first have to say that since I am not post op and have yet even to start hormones I may be way out of place here.  But passing is a big issue for me or the lack of being able to pass --for me I don't think i will ever be able to pass          I am very tall 6'4' and although loosing weight right now am at 215 pounds and have a very manly face (ugh)--but all i wish to be from the deepest part of me is to be the woman that I know I am, and to be seen and treated as such.
  I envy a lot of you who look so beautiful and so feminine and I envy all of you who have the courage to move forward and do what is needed to become the whole person you desire.   I am always looking for help and it is very confirming for me to know of others who have made this trip and are doing well, but I would never want to make someone feel uncomfortable all over again. So I think the stealth or not to go stealth issue is a very personal issue and I respect both sides and am grateful to anyone who is willing to help those of us still on the path no matter how they do it.
  I wouldn't want this issue to be something that becomes a division or another way of oppresion.  I know we need to change society and it is going to take all of us who are willing and who can to show that being TS is not something that anyone needs to fear and that like everyone else there are all types of us.
   OOps this is turning into a nickels worth so i will stop here, and just say thank you to all of you who give me a place I can come to and seek answers to my multitude of questions.

Love;    Mary

Hi All!   

First I want to state that what I am about to say is absolutely not in any way a condemnation of those that have decided to dissappear from the world, aka go stealth. I wholeheartedly feel that what a person needs to do to maintain their own happiness, so long as it hurts no one, is the right thing for them to do. Going stealth hurts no one and brightens the life of those of us that have made it to fully become women.

I just want to point out a small bit of irony that applies to my life alone. But, maybe some others will be able to identify with what I say.

I have never fit into anything. I have never fit into any standard group of people, nor been able to fall into the trendy organizations tailored to make their members feel good about themselves. I have never made friends easily. I've had and made so very few real friends their numbers can be counted on one hand.

I think all of that is due to acceptance. Not these groups of people accepting me but of self acceptance. I have come to believe that I have projected this lack of self acceptance upon every group I have tried to become a part of, because I thought they would never accept me. In many cases that was true. Especially now, they would be even less accepting I believe, of the male turning female me. But it has become their problem at that point, not mine.

I have finally found two groups of people that I feel accepted by and feel my place in. One is of those groups are the Pagans/Wiccans I have become part of.

The other is the T community. I feel more acceptance here than I have ever felt my whole life. I think it is mostly because I see myself as a woman here and it's ok. I'm ok both inside and out about being a part of the T community.

I have become a part of community in which success is measured by the ability to physically blend in with the population at large, aka "pass". The brightest stars of the community I am now a part of are those that are able to leave it undetected, and able to move into the the world as women and live full lives.

I have joined a community looking for friendship and sisterhood, looking to belong looking for a sense of togetherness. But, those that are best able to help those many of us are only able to do so anonymously and not in person. It all seems very Darwinian that those of us that can not pass seem to get left behind. I feel this is a delicious irony and once it hit me, I felt a little better about life. Just knowing where you stand counts for a lot.

Please believe me. I envy you that can pass into the general population. I would do it too given the ability to pass. But I don't think I ever will truly pass. Part of it is my age. Part of it is all these silly male mannerisms that, no matter how much I try, I can't seem to rid myself of. And finally part of it is that small voice in my head that is telling me my situation is hopeless and that I'd be better off finding out what the next life in my chain of incarnation brings. Maybe I'd have better luck of the gender draw there.  LOL

*hugs*

Genevieve

P.S. This is not a suicide note. I'm not going to give into the momentary impulses I occasionally have. It is just how I'm feeling and an observation. Mostly all I want to do is just go somewhere and cry.

For me, I think I'm somewhere in the middle.

Walking down the street, casual society, I want to be accepted as a female.  I don't want to turn heads because I can't pass.  I know I won't be a knockout, but I really don't want to be seen as a guy in a dress!

In a one-on-one situation, I would be almost incapable of lying about my past.  If asked a direct question, I would answer in a direct way.  Sometimes this may not be the way a discussion is going, but for example, if I am asked how long I was in labor for my children, I would feel I would have to answer truthfully and say that I did not give birth to my children.  I was a male when that occured.  Yeah that will out me.  But lying is something I've been doing to myself most of my life.  Now that I'm not lying to myself anymore, why should I lie to the world?

I know of ladies who would dance around questions like that.  When asked about the how long labor was, I know of a lady who responded that labor for her son lasted over twenty hours...  To me that's right up there with "I didn't inhale", "oral is not sex" and other great lying truths of our times.

I have not been presented with a situation like this yet.  So what I say is only speculation.  My mettle has yet to be tested.  I hope with all my heart that I can be truthful to myself and the world at the same time.

-Sandy

I've only been presented with a question like that once.  It was in chat with an old work acquaintance.  She asked that very same question... well very close. She asked "What was labor like for your first?" I told her that "for the birth of my first, labor was no big deal for me."  That was the only time I've ever had to answer a question about the birth of my kids. I'm not sure how I would handle it in person.  I'd probably tell them that I am not their birth mother and leave it at that.

I have never lied.  But I've learned to talk about my "ex spousal person" even with my hubby who knows everything he wants to know.  It's sort of a valley girl thang I picked up when I lived in LA.  I know that it is old hat... but let me tell you, it works for me. It's my personality. When I'm asked about my excommunication from my church, I tell them that "I told a church authority that he was fulll of..." which I truly did.  My kids are now married and the issues about their younger years and my part to play are non existant.  Usually, people know that I went through a very painful divorce and left my home state.  If anyone intrudes by asking a personal question, I just tell them that it is too painful to talk about and I don't want to go there.

I went through hell to live my life as a woman.  I would never want to confirm anyone's doubt by telling them stuff they don't need to know.  For those who are starting out or are in transition, believe me... when you get past all of this, you'll not be wanting to wear a sign.  You will want to do your very best to blend in and disappear.

Now with that said, there are times when the issue is almost sure to come up.... like the little kid giving you the eye.  I look straight back and do something totally female.  I scrunch up my face and give them a big smile... and play peek aboo.  My smile does work.  The issue fades.

If an adult asks me point blank "Were you a guy once?"   I learned to diffuse the situation immediately by saying "Yes I was. And it was a pretty boring life, let me tell you."  In the last several years, this has totally been a non issue.

I have turned down interviews to promote my book.  Yes, it would be nice for the extra money in book sales. But I'm confident that those who need it will find it. I wrote it only to help others by telling my story.  I don't need to plaster my face across America for a few extra bucks.  I've come here to help some along the way... and you know what, some of you have helped me in return.  For that I am eternally grateful.

Cindi

Cindi,
    I will have to agree with you on most, if not all of what you have said. I have only been asked that question, on childbirth one time. The co worker knows about me and she just plain forgot. She was embarressed about her question and I told her I felt very blessed by the question as she knows all about me. How about that going stealth without even trying. I don't have the long past as you do Cindi, in being out there, but do agree that you do get used to some things and when a middle school person asked you a question like that you do smile and asked the question back. Like what kind of question is that? I face kids everyday in all age groups. I'm not allowed to bring all this up to them, nor do or should I. I'm on the job, but it happens. I don't pay attention to others and they don't to me. I only get sir'ed on the phone, but I make that correction to them and they start calling me maam. I don't have a deep voice, maybe a little deeper than most women, but there are some who have deeper than me. I think you just have to relax with it.
Sheila

Personally people who knew me before know and everyone else does not, it's unfair to ask anyone to be out in life just to further "the cause" while it would be nice to have a trans person on jerry springer or trisha that was acctually vaugely sane would be nice for the public image it's not fair on whoever is then outed to the whole country.

I have no desire other than to continue liveing as female and leave my past behind, I'll help others here and in support groups if the opertunity arrises for a good while after everything with me is behind me but at a point you have to move on, as long as you give back the help that you recieved to the next generation "the cause" will never die.

There are people out there who are "furthering the cause".  Many of them could easily live in stealth but chose not to.  That was their choice.  I'm not one of them although it's not out of the question I could be at some point in time.  We are all different with different personalities and different views on life.  Wanting to live in stealth doesn't mean you are turning your back on those who are coming to terms with their transsexuality.  Sometimes just getting through the day is more than we can handle.  But I doubt there's even one of us that at some point in time hasn't helped someone else with their TS issues.  We are by nature rather selfless people.

Still, I think it would be a positive thing to have some statistics that indicate not just how many of us there but how we have successfully transitioned into our new lives.  There's a book called "Finding The Real Me" that does that on a smaller scale but goes into each life more in depth.  My then wife read it and told me she saw me in those pages.  I was still in denial than and rejected it but a seed was planted.  Things like that help us come to the realization of not just who we really are but also that there's a glimmer of hope in fulfilling our dreams.

Never in a million years did I believe I'd ever transition.  I just didn't think it was possible.  But after reading stories about those who did, after countless conversations both in person and on forums, I finally began to believe.  I still struggle with this and if you took away this forum, the books I have read, the people I have met, I think I could sink back into that denial stage again.  The only thing that would prevent me from going back would be the knowledge that I'd want to die ASAP.  Knowing others have gone before me and seeing the happiness in their souls keeps me moving forward.  Once I'm there I could never go completely stealth, not after all the help I had getting there. 

Julie

Julie,
   For a long time and even now, I sometimes think that I am doing what I have always wanted to do and I'm passing. I will be walking down an aisle or will be driving my car and will say to Pat, I just can't believe I'm passing so well. I just can't believe it. I know at first I had a hard time with it and now I don't even think about it, only once in a blue moon do I think about it now. I just feel so blessed in my life.
  Julie, you mentioned that not everyone should come out and do the work or carry the cause. If at any point I have insinuated that I think everyone should not be stealth, I will have to appoligize for that. I really meant that for me and I think I have said before, I'm not a writer and I write down what I think and sometimes it may come out wrong. You are so right that going stealth or not going stealth is your personal decision. For me, I don't care if I'm stealth or not. I will not go back into the closet and that is how I see it. My own personal observation, not everyone sees it that way.
Sheila

I've read a lot about the cost/benefit about "coming out."  A wonderful gay minister on CSpan talked this last weekend about how those gays who were "out" helped the cause because average people now KNOW gays that are close to them or work with them.  Only by average people seeing that gays are "a lot like us," the minister argued, will society come to accept them as REAL and deserving of respect.

Contrarily, Cindi wrote here: "I would never want to confirm anyone's doubt by telling them stuff they don't need to know."  That made a lot of sense to me and more directly defines how I feel than what that minister felt.  Hey, I know it might help if people knew what I was but why put ME through that angst -- haven't I had enough pain?

If anyone suggested that I, personally, be out, I would suggest that, to be fair, EVERYONE should be OUT about everything in their lives.  If you've stolen a library book, if you've been in jail, if you've been unfaithful to your spouse, if you've lied to your boss, if you've done anything society thinks of as being different, terrible or perverse, heck we should pin a scarlet "A" on your breast.  Yes, people MIGHT come to know you as a nice person, but the more likely scenario is that they won't give you the chance.  Until the next generation grows up, we're stuck with a bunch of bigoted people around us who think we're, at best, brave (to do such a risky thing) or stupid.  Whether they praise or criticize us, neither result is the same as having them just say, "you're okay."  It is something that every person who is missing a leg wishes for...not to be praised or pitied...just to be treated as another normal human being.

In a future world, hopefully the majority of society will let us have that little thing.

Teri Anne

I want people to see me for who I am, rather than what I was.

Melissa