Quote from: HelenaYes, though unlike Sevan, I'm intent of a full transition MtF, all so I can pivot round the centre point and and find the same kind of place I'm in at the moment, only I'll be approaching it from the right side of the gender spectrum.

I've been mulling on a number of folks that have spoken about androgyny like this. (So please don't think I'm picking on you Helena. You just said it in such a precise way...that I've got to wonder and ask..) I pulled the quote from the "MtF or FtM androgyn" thread.

We've got a fair number of people who have shared their view on androgyny in this board who've expressed a plan/desire/need to fully transition and then swing back around to a more central/neutral place.

And....I don't get it. For the purposes of this conversation let's clarify a few terms (and ONLY for the purposes of this conversation...I don't wish to get stuck on yet another discussion of language..) So let's say that the "gender identity", which is equal to any other gender identity...which is expressed or felt as being somewhere between the two "main" genders of male and female, or somewhere completely outside of the binary all together. So that's what we'll call "androgyn" identity. Yes? (again...super duper simplifying for the purpose of this conversation.) Then we've got this....fashion statement which currently goes by the same name. For this conversation I'd like to call this fashion statement....."binary mixing" which is the act of dressing or presenting yourself in a manner that's nuetral or blended of the two main gender's clothing items.

So. With all that frame work in place....to those that feel the need to fully transition from MtF, or FtM yet still identify as androgyn....could you shed some light on this for me? I truely wish to understand. And right now...I don't.

I know I confuse a number of people by my expression as well. I'm not trying to say that "i'm doing this right, and your doing it wrong!!" Not at all!! In fact I worried about posting this question at all...but I think we can never understand eachother's point of view, and then respect that point of view if we're never brave enough to ask questions. Yes I am taking testosterone and started from a female body. I don't intend to surgically alter my genitals, nor do I plan to remove my breasts. For me...being chemically male (having T in the male range and E in the male range as well) but still maining a (more or less) female body...works for me to quell my dysphoria. So that's me...

I have no current plans to fully transition although for quite I while that was my goal. With a bit of therapy and using hormones my GID became less confusing, I felt sane. I still feel the strong pull of femininity and my "fashion statement" helps with that. I feel comfortable with being an androgyne. When I accepted that, life seemed to become more simple, easier. I think it is a good place for me to be, for now. So yes, I guess I have swung around back to the middle/central/neutral place. I am so glad I did.

I think it's that, for example, if you have a feminine personality and a female body, no-one is going to see you as much more than just that- a female. So if your gender identity is in-between, changing your body so you can fully express your personality without people assuming stuff like that is the way to go?
I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes I get a kind of... personality dysphoria? Like, I'll react to something in a typically feminine way and then feel uncomfortable because I'm especially concious that I appeared female in that moment. It's odd, I feel that if there was a way I could visually communicate my not-actually-a-femaleness then I would stop getting this. Of course, you wouldn't do anything about it without the physical dysphoria to back it up, but it's a factor.
Of course, that doesn't explain rejennyrated, but I'm sure she'll be able to come up with a beautiful and much more eloquent response herself. 
I don't know, at one point I thought fully transitioning might be the way I would go... but it would just be about lashing back in frustration at being saddled with a female body all these years, it's not necessarily what I'd want in the end. I probably wouldn't be comfortable for the rest of my life like that, I would end up having a re-backlash against it or something. 

Ok Sevan let me try to explain this to you as I am somewhat the same as Helana. I think we came off the same prodcution line somewhere She's the improved Mk2 version I'm the Mk1

I didn't like, couldn't cope with and simply wasn't prepared to accept having to live within a male body. I am also far more sexualy attracted to men than women even though by irony my life partner is a woman.

But I have no desire to be loved as a man. I hated having a penis. I hated the fact that I had no breasts. I hated the fact that if I reproduced I would never be the one to carry the child and birth it. I hated the fact that I had no monthly show. I hated the fact that I had (some) hair on my limbs and face. I hated the fact that my soprano voice dropped to a contralto. I hated that I grew so large! I hated that my skin was not so soft, I could go on!

Physically I wanted to be female, and not just female but a fairly femme female too! NOT butch!

Having said that I don't buy into all the traditional girly girly stuff. I like being a female gender rebel and giving free range to the "masculine" side of my personality within a female physical context. I did NOT like expressing the female side of my personality within a male physical context. Along with some normal female interests I also have a set of more masculine interests which I'm not about to give up anytime soon.

Given that clothing is only a window dressing and can be removed to uncover a hidden reality, I also enjoy sometimes dressing in a fairly male manner. I love the fact that by doing this I am playing with other people's perceptions. I have been known to don buzz cut, suit and tie when postop - but when I do so I still use my female name and present fully as a masculine female.

I am also very comfortable dressing in a very traditionally feminine way. I love my floaty dresses and my soft pink outfits. 

I love the apparent contradiction of doing some traditionally boy things while presenting and being, as far as medical science will allow, fully female. At the same time I enjoy the fact that I can also be a full memeber of the girl groups too.

In essence I am a full gender chameleon, with desire and ability to blend in fairly seamlessly to both groups.

I have no desire whatsoever to transition back to being male, but it's a bit like having a tiny bit of the soul of an FtM in the body and mind of a MtF - that isn't a very good analogy, but we are at the limits of language here and that's the best way I can describe it - perhaps my younger sister Helena can express it better. EDIT and such is my gender blindness that I even got those FtM and MtF's the wrong way round the first time I typed that sentence out...

I personally think that GEEK GIRLS is a far far better description of us than androgynes, but clearly there is some overlap and I like the company on this section of the board - so this is where I hang out!

Hi Sevan, I'll do my best to explain...despite feeling trapped in the wrong body most of my life, I've only recently come across most of the terminology and only really recently started to understand my dysphoria in those terms. And don't worry about asking...it's a good question. hehe

First up, I'm not an androgyne in that I definitely identify female...that's never been in doubt. However, the one of the ways my dysphoria affected me was by really making me lose my sense of self, both from a gender and personality point of view. I really did a number on myself with all the walls and acts I erected around myself...the end result of this is I've felt stuck in limbo for at least the 10 years pretty much questioning every aspect of who and what I am as a person. In terms of gender, I knew I wasn't a man, but believed (stupidly) that I could never be woman. The outward expression of this neutral place I found myself inhabiting was naturally very neutral its self, it would swing between very neutral and just lightly more male...usually down to whether I was too lazy to shave. hehe.
Also, because since he age of 20, my mental image of myself has been some crazy haired alternative girl with piercings and tattoos...not really your classic image of femininity, and through out that period I've been a crazy haired alternative guy with piercing and tattoos, I've had this weird thing where my life has almost felt right, but the little bit that wasn't slowly poisoned the rest.

Again, very much like Jenny, I'm very non-conformist...and don't really give a damn about stereotypes. I just do things i enjoy them...I used to get really hacked off with people when they asked if i was gay because i modified my own clothes for example.

Anyway, I hope that answers your question...i understand it will be different for everybody, because the one thing I've learnt is that GD is not a one size fits all thing. Finally as Jenny says, we really are just a pair of gender gifted geek girls  and really, just like jenny, I enjoy the company of this part of the forum.

Quote from: Fenrir on May 24, 2010, 01:34:04 PM
I think it's that, for example, if you have a feminine personality and a female body, no-one is going to see you as much more than just that- a female. So if your gender identity is in-between, changing your body so you can fully express your personality without people assuming stuff like that is the way to go?
I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes I get a kind of... personality dysphoria? Like, I'll react to something in a typically feminine way and then feel uncomfortable because I'm especially concious that I appeared female in that moment. It's odd, I feel that if there was a way I could visually communicate my not-actually-a-femaleness then I would stop getting this. Of course, you wouldn't do anything about it without the physical dysphoria to back it up, but it's a factor.

I could have said teh exact same thing. I don't want people to think I'm just a tomboyish girl or a butch lesbian (depending on who's making the assumption, I get both-- some don't even seem to factor in "tomboyish"). I don't like assumptions-- people thinking that my wearing a skirt or squealing over something I find cute means that I'm 100% girl, or worse yet, basing that assumption on the fact that my body has curves and my voice is high pitched.

But I don't want to transition fully to male, because I suspect I would feel just as trapped, or at least close to as trapped, in that body as well. However, I feel like some kind of transition is in order, because I feel so uncomfortable and out of place in my own skin as things stand now, both on a personal, bodily level (my body has always felt the tiniest bit... off, in a way I couldn't explain for the longest time, because all i had to describe it were binary terms) and an interpersonal level (the assumptions people make).

The thing that seems to ring true pretty consistenly for transitioning androgynes is that need to approach our androgyny (whether that is a gender identity or a gender expression or both for the person at hand) from the right body (be that male or female or something in between or completely neuter). Gender is more complex, sometimes, than simply "if teh gender is male, the body should be too." I personally have a fairly fluid gender presentation-- I'll wear a men's dress shirt and tie one day and a bright purple gypsy skirt the next, yet both of these gender expressions, to me, would feel most comfortable in a body that falls somehow between genders. Yet I can also understand how it could be easier, for other people, from a male or female body-- bodily dysphoria (about one's sex) doesn't necessarily have to coincide in some specific, prescribed way with psychosocial gender dysphoria.


Also, Jenny, your articulations of your gender are always so wonderfully eloquent and insightful. It's really refreshing to hear someone so wonderfully self-aware talk about identity. <3

Quote from: Crow on May 24, 2010, 02:41:19 PM
But I don't want to transition fully to male, because I suspect I would feel just as trapped, or at least close to as trapped, in that body as well. However, I feel like some kind of transition is in order, because I feel so uncomfortable and out of place in my own skin as things stand now, both on a personal, bodily level (my body has always felt the tiniest bit... off, in a way I couldn't explain for the longest time, because all i had to describe it were binary terms) and an interpersonal level (the assumptions people make).

This^^^

I kind of swung out in an arc, and then reversed directions to a more comfortable height. (I'm not really sure what that means, but please, try to bear with me here.) I origionally ID'd as genderqueer when I was 20 or 21, and stuck with it for a few years.

Then I met some trans people in Chicago (While dating an MtF) and my girlfriend kind of drew the "man out of me" and referred to me as her boyfriend, and all of a sudden I'm the hot new trans guy in the Chicago queer scene. It got a bit crazy then, with everyone telling me about support groups they went to, and where the informed consent endo was, and I was just waiting on some money to make an appointment to get blood work done to go on T.   

And then.... Dislocated my shoulder, out of work for at least 3 weeks, kicked out of my apartment, Moved back to Vermont.

I figured that living with my mom, no job, no car (and 25, so running out of excuses), wasn't the best time to start medically transitioning. I kind of slipped back into my female version again, but not.  I still bind, wear almost all mens clothes, and no longer try to act feminine because I feel like I'm supposed to.  Everyone knows me as female, with my female name, but I always hang with the guys, as one of the guys.

I would still like to partially transition, I definitely want top surgery, no question.  But I don't feel the need to fully transition anymore.  I think I've found a comfortable spot to hang out in on the gender-spiderweb.  Thats right, the gender-spiderweb, not spectrum. Because we all know it's so much more than just a spectrum.

The way I see it

It's a case of the difference between gender expression and identity. Some people can have a core identity of female or male, and be born into the wrong body, but also have a androgynous or genderqueer gender expression, which extends beyond just being masculine or feminine.

Others might have a congruent gender identity and an genderqueer or androgynous gender expression. Examples of this could be genderqueers with no want to transition, crossdressers, drag queens or just people you meet every day.

Just because someone's gender expression is androgynous/genderqueer doesn't mean they would behave that way, though they would feel a desire to.

Personally I am born male but see myself as having an androgynous gender identity and androgynous or bi-gender expression. Though at this point I don't know for sure about myself where I would be most comfortable.

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 24, 2010, 01:35:26 PM
I have no desire whatsoever to transition back to being male, but it's a bit like having a tiny bit of the soul of an FtM in the body and mind of a MtF - that isn't a very good analogy, but we are at the limits of language here and that's the best way I can describe it - perhaps my younger sister Helena can express it better. EDIT and such is my gender blindness that I even got those FtM and MtF's the wrong way round the first time I typed that sentence out...

I like your analogy of soul of an FtM in the body and mind of a MtF, I can relate to that, or something similar for myself.

Z

Quote from: Crow on May 24, 2010, 02:41:19 PM
I could have said teh exact same thing. I don't want people to think I'm just a tomboyish girl or a butch lesbian (depending on who's making the assumption, I get both-- some don't even seem to factor in "tomboyish"). I don't like assumptions-- people thinking that my wearing a skirt or squealing over something I find cute means that I'm 100% girl, or worse yet, basing that assumption on the fact that my body has curves and my voice is high pitched.

Totally!!! For me...I think my gender identity/expression has always been that of androgyn/bi-gender. The problem is...I'm QUITE curvy and a rather *giggly* person by nature which is seen as "fem". Even just last week...here on the boards even...I posted something in the FtM boards; because hanging with others who are on T is pretty cool...and someone came into the boards and responded to me as "dude" and I freaked out for damn near a whole day...totally fearful that she saw me as FtM instead of androgyn...even though *I* use dude to refer to anyone of any gender all the time.

Thank you to all that have responded. I feel like I've got a better idea of where people are coming from already.

Quote from: phx_rising on May 24, 2010, 07:53:26 PM
Totally!!! For me...I think my gender identity/expression has always been that of androgyn/bi-gender. The problem is...I'm QUITE curvy and a rather *giggly* person by nature which is seen as "fem". Even just last week...here on the boards even...I posted something in the FtM boards; because hanging with others who are on T is pretty cool...and someone came into the boards and responded to me as "dude" and I freaked out for damn near a whole day...totally fearful that she saw me as FtM instead of androgyn...even though *I* use dude to refer to anyone of any gender all the time.

Thank you to all that have responded. I feel like I've got a better idea of where people are coming from already.

LOL
Yeah I can get how from your perspective that might freak you.

For the record anyone can call me Ma'am, Missy, Hun, Love, Girl, Dude, Sir, Mate, fella, Boy... I really don't care about the gender of those sorts of terms of address.

Strangely though I DO prefer female pronouns although if someone got them wrong I would probably be more surprised than anything else, and I personally would not be offended, as long as what people say shows that they aren't trying to be snippy or put me down.

But I'm glad that we have all contributed to your understanding a little.

did i come too late 
anyway , for me it's kinda complicated and hard to explain ,especially that i'm not so good with putting words together but i'll try my best to explain it even to myself in this thread
simply put  , i know now (though i have been confused about it for long) that i'm no male , no female . but still , i don't like a masculine body , i don't like having my 'current' genitalia, and i know it's easier (at least for me) to look andro if i approach it from the female side .so i need full transition so i can get to exactly 'where' i want ,and who knows , maybe at some point during transition i'll feel that i'm at the right point  or near it and stop it at that

it's like ...being 60% female , and 40% male or 70%-30% sth like that, i mean does that make me an androgyny? i really don't know .
i don't like being vulnerable as female , i don't like the idea of being 'seen' as a feminine girl , neither a masculine guy . i like 'the freedom of style' guys have like ... um it's really hard to explain so i'll just suffice with the above , i mean i don't even care if i fit into any category that much anymore , it's just me

even though before i came to an understanding with the term (androgyny) i used to describe myself as female , but it just didn't feel right , so i thought maybe i'm just not fit for the world and all that
and since i started seeing myself as androgyny everything just perfectly fits in place incredibly beyond words , i even feel happy for that realization  for a while now
now i'll read that back to have better understanding of what i am