Quote from: lisagurl on May 30, 2010, 09:46:43 AM
If you win by cheating the rules you have not won.

The law is not "the rules." My personal system of ethics, which I have spent plenty of time thinking about and plan to spend plenty more time mulling over for the rest of my life, is "the rules." The law serves a purpose and I'm glad it's there, but I'm not going to obey the law just because it exists. My sexuality is illegal in many places; even my gender expression is illegal in some parts of the world (as is yours).

QuoteWe've all broken the 'rules' at one time or another in our lives.

Then do not complain when someone discriminates against you. Without people following the rules you have anarchy. The Government can not enforce the rules it is personal responsibility. Then there is personal virtue which nobody can live in peace by breaking cultural rules.

QuoteI'm allowed to call you a man and beat you death for being a queermo.

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You are saying that breaking the rules is normal so I guess I will just carry a gun. So much for special rights.

"I'll carry a BIGGER gun! 
See how this gets stupid really fast?"
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I see a quick end to the problem. It is not as stupid as to believe people that are asking for the protection do not follow the rules themselves.

QuoteOver here in NZ, none of us carry guns. We don't need them

And in the U.S. we do not need ENDA.

Is "the rules" supposed to mean "gender binary?" I still haven't figured it out.

QuoteIs "the rules" supposed to mean "gender binary?" I still haven't figured it out.

The rules are what any local culture requires for one to be part of the community. Culture is not equal or fair, culture is a way people live together to survive under local conditions.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 02, 2010, 11:23:27 AM
The rules are what any local culture requires for one to be part of the community. Culture is not equal or fair, culture is a way people live together to survive under local conditions.

So I'll take that as a yes since if you're not what an employer sees as feminine enough as a woman you can be denied a job, or if you're not masculine enough as a man.

Hmm guns or ENDA..I'll take ENDA.

Quote from: LordKAT on June 02, 2010, 12:52:07 PM
Hmm guns or ENDA..I'll take ENDA.

Short and sweet! Perfect LK!! I could not agree more!

lisa, I'm seeing an interesting duality emerge with what you are saying.

One the on hand, you emphasize the importance of obeying rules and such, that if someone breaks rules, then whatever they do is illegitimate.

On the other hand, you have also expressed that if ENDA is place that (many) employers will still discriminate against TGs.  However, wouldn't it also stand that said employers are breaking the rules and cheating and not actually winning?  Considering that employers are more blame-worthy for discrimination than TGs are for being TG, I find shifting the stigma to be a desirable outcome.

QuoteConsidering that employers are more blame-worthy for discrimination than TGs are for being TG,

There is no right to a job. Employers are doing what they do to make money. If a TG hinders their ability to make money it is not discrimination just good business sense not to employ them. If a law tells business they have to hire people that lose them money they will close and all will be looking to start their own one person business and then they can discriminate what customers they want. It seems simple if you do not get along with your employer than quite. No need to make the whole town mad at you. If you do not like the culture move. I understand NZ will welcome you.

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Post Merge: June 03, 2010, 10:43:41 AM

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In a free society, the state is there to serve the limited function (by assent of those governed) to secure their already existing rights. In other words a right is not granted by the state to an individual - the individual has the pre-existing right and it defines the limits of what a state can do to him! A right is the way to subordinate the society to the free individual.

Employers and employees alike do what they do to make money.  It may be that the business owners own various property and infrastructure concerning the business, but all levels of staff are involved in making profit possible.

The point of anti-discrimination law is to drive merit as criteria.  Even with ENDA, employers can still turn down and fire employees that can't/don't do their jobs, whether they are TG or not.  The US nationally has various employment non-discrimination acts offering these protections based off sex, race, color, ethnicity, religion, disability, and genetic information for any "public" businesses.  If you oppose ENDA on reasons not related to ->-bleeped-<-, then you should also support the repeal of all these other laws because they might possibly cost a business some money.  Is this a correct conclusion?

Quotesupport the repeal of all these other laws because they might possibly cost a business some money.  Is this a correct conclusion?

I disagree with the words "might possibly". Any reason that a employee does not make the business profitable is a reason for dismissal even sex, race, same as color, religion, disability and any other problem they cause. ENDA even has provisions for religion business to discriminate without penalty. The employer makes a choice based on his best personal abilities not by government decree.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 04, 2010, 01:54:53 PM
I disagree with the words "might possibly". Any reason that a employee does not make the business profitable is a reason for dismissal even sex, race, same as color, religion, disability and any other problem they cause. ENDA even has provisions for religion business to discriminate without penalty. The employer makes a choice based on his best personal abilities not by government decree.

Tell that to someone who's unable to find gainful employment because they're confined to a wheelchair.

Quotei.e. slavery is fine, if it makes money for the company.

To be fair, slavery is a physical denial of liberty sanctioned by the government.  It's more like:

Slavery: bad
Slave wages (because you're a ->-bleeped-<-/girl/foreigner/[insert other derogatory word here]): no problem!

Quotei.e. slavery is fine, if it makes money for the company.

Nobodies: Modern American Slave Labor and the Dark Side of the New Global Economy

http://www.amazon.com/Nobodies-Modern-American-Global-Economy/dp/0812971841/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275753199&sr=1-1

Let me get this straight: You are saying that employers can set whatever standards they want (and this includes slave wages), and you consider slave wages to be the equivalent of outright slavery in way it existed in the US up through the Civil War, it should stand that you don't have a problem with slavery, even though the US Constitution explicitly prohibits it (all while you emphasize the need for people to obey "the rules.")

I think you have bigger problems here.

Quoteit should stand that you don't have a problem with slavery, even though the US Constitution explicitly prohibits it (all while you emphasize the need for people to obey "the rules.")

If you buy products from China and many other places including made in the U.S. you are supporting slavery with your dollar vote.

The world has too many people to support with the limited resources on earth. That is what makes some slaves according to the rules set forth 13 amendment about involuntary servitude. It seems many here believe that a TS is forced to do prostitution without ENDA.

Fact is that ENDA will not make more resources on earth making it possible for everyone to survive. Some are going to sell their freedoms to eat. Others will die because they can not compete. If you make rules they need to be able to work. Rules that work need to be followed so they can work. Poor ethics and morals got us into this situation and only a large reduction in world population will get us out. ENDA is not a solution.

your right ENDA is not a solution, it is a step in making it more fair in who makes it in the world and will make a difference. It would be more enforcable than you may think.