Hi, I'm not going to name this restaurant quite yet in case it becomes a legal issue but I need some general advice on an incident that happened to me very recently.

There is a particular restaurant that has prided itself for a very long time as being GLBT friendly. Not only do they have large numbers of gays and lesbians there but also a number of trans people. There are many TSs who are full time and who may or may not have had SRS, there are part-time crossdressers who may or may not be transitioning, and there are the local drag queens who get a bite to eat after a performance.

I have been a regular customer at this place and caused zero trouble. I always present female when I go there and a number of people have commented that I'm rather passable. I always use the women's room when I need to go. In fact, all of the other transgendered people including all categories as referenced above have been using the women's room.

Recently, I had a bite to eat there and everything was relatively normal until I actually left to go out to the car. When I was at the car, the (new) manager had followed me out to my car to tell me that I cannot use the women's room. I asked him why and he got very defensive. He said things like "Well of course you can't." I explained to him that I'm a transgendered woman and there is no reason I should not be able to use the women's room. Then he suddenly "fixed" his position and said "well I was just asking." I said "Well if you were asking why did you just tell me I couldn't use it?" Then he said he was going to run it by the general manager and asked me what the law was on it. I told him I didn't know what the law said (I am not a lawyer) but that I am aware of an establishment in Scottsdale that kicked transwomen out because they used the women's room and they successfully sued and won. I said this in a way that clearly hinted that this manager was already treading in very dangerous waters.

He said he would look into it and went back inside the restaurant. Thanks for destroying what was a wonderful evening. I am willing to be somewhat reasonable and educate people on trans issues if they weren't previously familiar with them. I have much less tolerance about it at this place though. If I went to a "regular" restaurant that was fully unfamiliar with trans issues I could see them having some misunderstandings about it. This place, however, has always been trans-friendly with a large trans clientele.

I then called and spoke to the general manager. He wasn't rude and in fact was rather nice but didn't exactly apologize either. He said someone had made a complaint and they were looking into it. He said he was in a "quandry" about this situation and mentioned "how would a straight woman feel?" Again, this is an establishment known for large numbers of gays and lesbians as well and it isn't about sexual orientation anyway. That night there were other transwomen in the establishment yet I was singled out.

I try to live my life free of drama and issues but I will do battle when I feel it is necessary and this is an issue worth battling over. Arizona does not have a non-discrimination law on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. However, there is a law on discrimination against gender. That is why I explained to both of those managers that they have no way of knowing who is "just a crossdresser" who has transitioned, whether or not one is "legally female," or what surgeries people may or may not have. I explained that I don't think it would be in the interest of the establishment to ask for IDs or inquire about genitalia to determine restroom usage.

We know that some trans women are so passable people think they are genetic women without question. We also know there are trans women who have had SRS but still are not very passable. It is also possible that a genetic woman will have masculine features and may be mistaken to be trans. When an establishment starts singling people out over restrooms it quickly becomes a gender discrimination issue.

Here is my plan:

If it turns out that they decide to make it "official" that only legal females can use the restroom, here is what I will do:

1. Contact all GLBT friendly media in the area for a story.
2. Contact as many famous drag queen performers and bar owners and managers of venues that are GLBT friendly and tell them the situation.
3. Tell all of my trans friends and other allies.
4. Find a law office and attorney who specializes in these issues.

Anyone who is reading this who lives in the Phoenix area likely already knows me or would remember me by face. While I only have a small number of people I would consider good solid friends, the amount of well-known acquaintances I have are enough to form a small army. I'm not one to mess with. I've been messed with and discriminated against and I have confidence that if I utilize the above "plan" that not only will the media (perhaps national) eat this story up like a fat kid and cake but that the GLBT community at large will get quite upset--upset enough that a demonstration may be in order. Since an establishment has already been succesfully sued for an identical issue to mine, attorneys may be fighting for my business.

I'm not backing down but I hope I don't have to do battle in the first place. Thanks for hearing me out.

Go tear them a new one, Britney.  They need to be taught a lesson in customer service and discrimination.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 05, 2010, 08:32:48 PM
Ah, the irony; half the time I catch gay guys using the female toilets in GLBT places.

this

I'm going out to a nightclub this evening and then back to that same restaurant. I happen to be on very good terms both with the queen who runs the drag performance at the club as well as the owner and his wife. I am going to run this by them. Like I said, once a few announcements are made, it is kind of like pouring gasoline on a fire. Even if when I do arrive at the restaurant tonight they do apologize or otherwise forget about it, I want to make this incident known. A trans friend of mine a while back told me, "If you aren't upsetting people, you are not doing anything." Well I'm going to get some trans people and allies quite upset this evening. I'll keep you posted. Thanks.

I live in Arizona. I don't know what the state's laws are on gender discrimination

I've filled out applications before and usually at the top of every application it mentions how "We are en qual opportunity blah blah blah sexual orientation, race, religion, gender, or sex". Not in that exact order but I've seen those mentioned on applications before

I couldn't legally work by filling out the "male" answer when an application asks what gender I am. At least I don't think I could

Hope this situation works out for you, Britney

Britney, I hope the manager who gave you a hard time gets a good kicking from the owner.
Seeing they have a reputation in the GLBTI community to protect, word of mouth is the most effective advertising.  I hope it all works out, and a friendly place can stay just that .

It's Arizona, where a painting of schoolchildren has "->-bleeped-<-" and "spic" shouted at the artists, and eventually white-washed because the kids weren't all white.

Watch your back.

Hi Britney,

I hope you kick their asses black and blue and find somewhere useful to leave a stiletto shoe heel.

Cindy

Thanks for the replies and I have an update. I mentioned it to the owner of the nightclub who recommended contacting the same attorney who successfully dealt with a similar issue on behalf of a trans client. I also mentioned it to two well known drag performers. One said it concerns her and to keep her updated on it, the other said she is going to spread the rumor around.

I then went to another trans-friendly club and mentioned it to the manager there. She had a different view. She agreed with me that it was pathetic but she said if they insist on using the men's room then use that one. Here is why: she says that if you start doing that then it will beocme an issue there as well. Plus, if they make me do it then they will have to make the rest of the trans women do it and it will then become a major major issue. She said that will cause it to snowball.

Well I went back to the restaurant and never mentioned a word about it (as the managers are still looking into it) and it went without incident. Oddly, the manager who confronted me in the first place spent more time at our table making sure everything was alright than the waitress herself. He still did not apologize but he was quite a bit nicer. I used the women's room and there was no issue.

At this point I can do one of a few things:

1. Demand an apology (I don't care how "nice" they suddenly are, they can still apologize).
2. Continue spreading the incident around to more in the GLBT community (as I've said earlier I know a ton of people and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg).
3. Contact the media and/or pursue legal action.

For now, I'm leaning on option two. While I would like a formal apology, it sounds like the restaurant may just drop the whole issue and pretend it never happened. In that case, it won't be an issue in the future and they have learned the soft way what they are dealing with. Since I haven't actually been kicked out of there and no further action was taken, I don't feel like there is a major case nor is it worth it at this point. But, if they do get worse about it, I think options 1 and 3 are in order.

What do you all think?

P.S. Autumn: I'm asking for useful opinions here, not complaints about Arizona by those who don't live here, thanks.

Demanding an apology isn't useful. Apologies that are said and not meant are not worth the words. You would get the words but I think let the actions speak.

I think I am somewhere between 1+2. Sort of a  quiet talk to the manager saying how upset you are, that you have mentioned it to LGBTS friends who are starting to feel very aggrieved and who are surprised hurt and dismayed by the action and want to know if a formal apology is forthcoming before they decide to take some sort of action, the nature of which you are unaware off. But they are very upset and may boycott or demonstrate around the establishment.

I think my idea is to get to settlement; allowing some breathing space for them to back down and not place yourself in a situation where you may be construed as making a threat. After all you want the place to stay open (I presume) and you don't want someone to sue you for 'threating' to close the place. I suppose I'm thinking resolution and not escalation as I don't think that will help in this particular situation, after all it is a TG 'friendly' place and maybe one silly person stepped over the line and doesn't know how to step back.

My thoughts

Cindy

I would think that if a business ahd to choose between an employee and suffering loss of custom, the staff member would go pretty damn quick.

You contact your local E.E.O.C.

Here's another update. I've been to the restaurant another two times. Granted, I never did get an actual apology but it does seem like a dead issue now. The manager has been unusually nice as have the servers. I have used the ladies room without issue. It sounds to me like they have been educated on the issue so there is no reason for me to pursue it any longer. There are enough other trans people who go there that it really isn't necessary for me to even continue spreading the rumor. If for any reason they try this on someone else (or multiple people) I'm sure it will create negative results for the restaurant. It was stupid and terrible that they singled me out for this but since they've dropped the issue and have demonstrated with the nice service since then that they value my (and our) business, it sounds like the battle has been won with little loss on either side. Should anything else come up, I'll be sure to post it. Thanks for everyone's responses and advice.

I think that's nice outcome Britney, pity about the lack of apology. But some guys are pretty uneducated about what an apology means.

Have the next dinner on me

Cindy

It is good to know that some places can realize they were wrong even if they don't apologize actually.


@Cindy, You unplugged something and that drawing looks like a Min drawing.

Quote from: LordKAT on June 14, 2010, 02:52:51 AM
It is good to know that some places can realize they were wrong even if they don't apologize actually.


@Cindy, You unplugged something and that drawing looks like a Min drawing.

I unplugged my printer, the laptop is still connected. The fantastic print is Hrfanar Odins (I think I misspelled the first word, my Icelandic is rusty) by Miniar. It is awesome, I love it, many visitors have noted it and been very impressed. Miniar is one very talented artist, sorry if I embarrass you again Miniar  but you really are very good.

Mugin and Hugin look over my shoulder while I type.. I have a window in front of me and I can watch the birds in the garden.

Hugs
Ken, I'll send a pm in a few minutes.

Cindy

I'm glad it is resolved. I think there would have been a little meeting with staff and this probably won't happen again at this establishment. 

You know what this reminds me of? The segregation of Blacks and Whites in the United States. Women and Men had to use different bathrooms based on their color.

What are they going to do next for us? Create a third bathroom for ->-bleeped-<-s? If I present myself as a woman I have every right to use it as anyone else, even if I do have male genitalia.

Besides if I went into the mens bathroom, I am sure that would cause more of an uproar.

All we ask is that we can fit in with the rest of our gender. Be it male or female. And that includes using the facilities.

Good luck with whatever comes out of this. And thank you for bringing these things to light.

Quote from: CrazyTina on June 26, 2010, 01:58:37 PMWhat are they going to do next for us? Create a third bathroom for ->-bleeped-<-s?

You may run into this "separate but (un)equal" tactic here and there. I was at a big department store last week (in drab) and found that they have a luxurious ladies' room (you could see into the lounge area from the hall, that's how I know it was luxurious), a smaller but well-maintained men's room (no lounge), and a single-occupant "unisex" restroom.

I don't in the least mind using a unisex restroom when dressed, if one is available. I'm just there to take care of necessities, not to make a political statement. But if the unisex restroom is occupied, you get to wait in the hall while other customers stroll past you to the gents' or the ladies'. This is bound to single you out for undesired attention -- as in, "Gee, why doesn't she just use the ladies'? Oh, I think I know why."

What I'm saying is, providing a unisex restroom is very thoughtful, and I will use it if I can. But requiring me to use it would be rank discrimination.

*** Jenna ***

(Blogging about gender at jennawillow.wordpress.com)