I've been thinking a lot lately about the mind and life of the androgyne, and to some extent transgendered et al. For reference I am phyically male, and identify as a 50/50 on the sliding scale of gender, with the percentages changing constantly, and I present as a man regardless of how I might dress or behave, often cross dressing or genderbending on some level.

From this perspective as a cross dressing male I have often wondered if I was born the right birth-sex. I have nearly always concluded yes. I have never hated my body. Yet, I feel compelled to dress and behave in ways that would femininize my masculine body to varying degrees. And the same question keeps popping up. If you are happy being a physical male, why would you do anything that would obscure and confuse that fact?

The other day getting out of the shower I caught sight of my makeup case, hung off hooks on the bathroom door, the hard case of blue plastic, patent leather straps, and the symbols of various high heels, lipstick, and other icons of femininity. While I own a variety of high heels, lipstick and other feminine items and accessories, they are really only a part of my life. Sometimes a large part, sometimes a minor part, but they are always present. Then it occurred to me, looking around the rest of the bathroom, at the different lotions, facial cleansers, and various personal items around my sink that if you didn't know who lived there you might think it was a woman. Everywhere I looked in my personal space were symbols of who I was.

In that moment I got thinking about the symbols that represent gender in any given culture. Whatever the cause of gender dysphoria, I had always felt more comfortable with the symbols of femininity and womanhood than I did with the masculine. The icons of femininity and what they represent in my culture: nurturing, sharing, gentleness made more sense that those of the masculine: control, power, strength. Those symbols I naturally identified with represented lifestyles and actions that offered a sense of peace and comfort. I was naturally drawn to the symbols of femininity because their cultural meanings synergized with how I felt inside.

I've seen the discussion repeated multiple times about what it means to be/feel like a man/woman throughout the transgendered world. In that moment with the makeup case it struck me that maybe it wasn't a question of actually ever fully being or knowing what it means to be a gender. Maybe the symbols of what makes sense to us emotionally and intellectually offer some explanation to this question of gender and birth-sex.

I was born a healthy and reasonably attractive physical male, yet have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to be more like a woman. While I have struggled to create an answer, the reality is I couldn't possibly say what it is like to be a woman, what it means to be or feel like a woman. But then based on my own personal experiences I am equally sure I could not explain or describe what it is like to be or feel like a man. But I am sure that I identify more often with feminine symbols than masculine symbols. And in that identification I think I may have found a personal understanding of my gender.

While I may have been happy with my physical self, my mental-emotional self was experiencing dissonance with the accepted notions of how my physical self was culturally encouraged to cultivate and represent the mental-emotional self. By allowing myself to be drawn to various symbols I can then create a sort of mental-emotional map based on what those symbols mean, and in turn get an idea of what it is like to be a man who feels more like a woman.

In my case I am drawn to various (stereotypical) symbols: feminine symbols (sensitivity, compassion), gender neutral symbols (art, philosophy), and masculine symbols (strength,leadership). When I examine the importance and mixture of those symbols in my life I can see how they match up with my belief system and world view. Where I find friction and unhappiness in my life I can also identify where those symbols do not match up with my, for lack of a better word, essence.

I don't know what it is like to be a woman, but I am sure that I want to represent myself more like one, strange as that may sound to someone who doesn't understand the transgendered mind. Being not genetically female, and having no desire to convert my physical self to match these feelings and thoughts, I can however better understand my androgynous identity through the symbols that make the most sense in my culture. In many ways, I really don't see that I have any other choice. All I can do is choose to identify myself with the symbols in the world that represent how I feel, not what a man or woman feels. Straight, androgynous, or transexual we feel like we feel. We are who we are. And for those of struggling to match those feelings with social constructs that do not support our unique identities maybe examining the symbols of meaning in our lives can bring better understanding to self and the world around us that is probably just as confused as we are.

The symbols of femininity and womanhood not only helped shape my identity, but were logical extentions of my identity before I even understood the concepts of gender. By understanding the pros and cons of the meanings behind the symbols we want in our life we can better understand who we are and who we want to be. The more I think about the symbols in my life, the more clearly I can see what it means to be both a man and a woman. But most importantly I can get a handle on what it means to not quite feel like either. If I look around and see that the rewards of being more like a woman are something I want in my life then I can naturally turn towards the symbols that represent that notion of womanhood and incorporate that in my manhood. If I determined that that those symbols of womanhood were more entirely relevant than those of manhood, then I would have clearly decided that I was transexual. In my case the symbols and their rewards and consequences indicated that I was bi-gendered, interdressing, interliving, androgyne, genderqueer, or whatever I feel like calling it.

Because of my beliefs and life in what I percieve as a fluid gender spectrum, I have long thought it was necessary to start building a larger vocabularly and conceptual understanding of transgendered issues. There shouldn't be anything wrong with someone of any birth-sex identifying on any level with the symbols of the "opposite" gender. Yet culturally and socially we are still a long way from this ideal. In the meantime it seems up to us not just understand ourselves on a personal level, for own sanity and happiness, but to understand ourselves completely and have the words to actually explain this to the rest of the world in the ongoing struggle for acceptance.

I thought I would share these somewhat incomplete thoughts in an effort to continue this dialog within our community. While I would like to convey these thoughts with the depth and eloquence of a transgendered Joseph Campbell, these are just a few thoughts to get a dialog going. Hope this helps someone.

OK.  I admit that I put off answering this because I knew it would take a while.  Too many cogent ideas to address without giving each it's due time.  Again, Madison, (anyone call you Maddy?) you have posted a great topic.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM

I've been thinking a lot lately about the mind and life of the androgyne, and to some extent transgendered et al. For reference I am phyically male, and identify as a 50/50 on the sliding scale of gender, with the percentages changing constantly, and I present as a man regardless of how I might dress or behave, often cross dressing or genderbending on some level.

From this perspective as a cross dressing male I have often wondered if I was born the right birth-sex. I have nearly always concluded yes. I have never hated my body. Yet, I feel compelled to dress and behave in ways that would femininize my masculine body to varying degrees. And the same question keeps popping up. If you are happy being a physical male, why would you do anything that would obscure and confuse that fact?

While there are things about my body I am not crazy about (weight being the main problem, receding hair line and bald spot are others), like you, I have never hated my body.  I have had it for 50 years and am used to it, aches, pains and all.  I can have sympathy for those who require surgery to correct their appearance, but as I am not in their shoes, cannot fully understand their struggle.  It must be horrible to wake up every day in a body that does not feel "right"...no wonder suicide and depression are such common threads in their lives.

Why do we, if not content with then resigned to, living in our male bodies do anything to obscure and confuse that fact?  Short answer, because we want to.  The reasons why we want to can range from a sense of personal serenity to shock value.  I personally feel better with my nails polished.  I'm sure as I dig deep enough, I will figure out exactly why this is, (and everyone at Susan's will hear about it, whether you want to or not).  For now, I simply accept this fact.  It brings a sense of inner peace and makes it hard to deny my femininity.  Sometimes we dress in ways that will cause others to stop and look.  I have a T-shirt I wear while presenting male that says "Hung like Einstein and Smart as a Horse"...I wear it simply to make people wonder.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
The other day getting out of the shower I caught sight of my makeup case, hung off hooks on the bathroom door, the hard case of blue plastic, patent leather straps, and the symbols of various high heels, lipstick, and other icons of femininity. While I own a variety of high heels, lipstick and other feminine items and accessories, they are really only a part of my life. Sometimes a large part, sometimes a minor part, but they are always present. Then it occurred to me, looking around the rest of the bathroom, at the different lotions, facial cleansers, and various personal items around my sink that if you didn't know who lived there you might think it was a woman. Everywhere I looked in my personal space were symbols of who I was.

Yep.  One closet in my bedroom has male clothes and the other has female.  One sink and cabinet are for male things and the other sink and cabinet are for female.  People coming to my house would wonder who was living with me.  Both closets and sinks are mine, but how I feel or what I am going to do has a lot to do with which ones are used.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
In that moment I got thinking about the symbols that represent gender in any given culture. Whatever the cause of gender dysphoria, I had always felt more comfortable with the symbols of femininity and womanhood than I did with the masculine. The icons of femininity and what they represent in my culture: nurturing, sharing, gentleness made more sense that those of the masculine: control, power, strength. Those symbols I naturally identified with represented lifestyles and actions that offered a sense of peace and comfort. I was naturally drawn to the symbols of femininity because their cultural meanings synergized with how I felt inside.

I've seen the discussion repeated multiple times about what it means to be/feel like a man/woman throughout the transgendered world. In that moment with the makeup case it struck me that maybe it wasn't a question of actually ever fully being or knowing what it means to be a gender. Maybe the symbols of what makes sense to us emotionally and intellectually offer some explanation to this question of gender and birth-sex.

I had not thought about it this way before.  So you are asserting that the reason we outwardly adopt the symbols of feminity is because we identify so strongly with the qualities of feminity.  Culturally speaking, this shows some serious problems...that men are not supposed to be nuturing, sharing and gentle and women are not supposed to be strong and powerful.  Wonder why it is that I find most attractive a person who is strong and powerful, yet very feminine (frilly, sweet, caring, nuturing)?  Maybe because that sounds like a "complete" person...one who is in touch and comfortable with all of the human qualities we rever.  While I agree that "controlling" is a more masculine quality, it has never been one of which I am very proud, and try to avoid.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
I was born a healthy and reasonably attractive physical male, yet have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to be more like a woman. While I have struggled to create an answer, the reality is I couldn't possibly say what it is like to be a woman, what it means to be or feel like a woman. But then based on my own personal experiences I am equally sure I could not explain or describe what it is like to be or feel like a man. But I am sure that I identify more often with feminine symbols than masculine symbols. And in that identification I think I may have found a personal understanding of my gender.

While I may have been happy with my physical self, my mental-emotional self was experiencing dissonance with the accepted notions of how my physical self was culturally encouraged to cultivate and represent the mental-emotional self. By allowing myself to be drawn to various symbols I can then create a sort of mental-emotional map based on what those symbols mean, and in turn get an idea of what it is like to be a man who feels more like a woman.

I'm with you so far.  It makes sense.  To me, the freedom came when I began to (stealing a word from you) resonate with the nature of the gender spectrum and the liberating understanding that I was not stuck trying to make myself fit a male or female role...that I was a mix of both.  But I also have wondered, knowing I was free emotionally from the male/female role, why am I drawn to physical expressions of both sexes.  Can't I be the same person, don't I still exist at the same place in the gender spectrum, without having the need to physically demonstrate?

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
In my case I am drawn to various (stereotypical) symbols: feminine symbols (sensitivity, compassion), gender neutral symbols (art, philosophy), and masculine symbols (strength,leadership). When I examine the importance and mixture of those symbols in my life I can see how they match up with my belief system and world view. Where I find friction and unhappiness in my life I can also identify where those symbols do not match up with my, for lack of a better word, essence.

I don't know what it is like to be a woman, but I am sure that I want to represent myself more like one, strange as that may sound to someone who doesn't understand the transgendered mind. Being not genetically female, and having no desire to convert my physical self to match these feelings and thoughts, I can however better understand my androgynous identity through the symbols that make the most sense in my culture. In many ways, I really don't see that I have any other choice. All I can do is choose to identify myself with the symbols in the world that represent how I feel, not what a man or woman feels. Straight, androgynous, or transexual we feel like we feel. We are who we are. And for those of struggling to match those feelings with social constructs that do not support our unique identities maybe examining the symbols of meaning in our lives can bring better understanding to self and the world around us that is probably just as confused as we are.

The symbols of femininity and womanhood not only helped shape my identity, but were logical extentions of my identity before I even understood the concepts of gender. By understanding the pros and cons of the meanings behind the symbols we want in our life we can better understand who we are and who we want to be. The more I think about the symbols in my life, the more clearly I can see what it means to be both a man and a woman. But most importantly I can get a handle on what it means to not quite feel like either. If I look around and see that the rewards of being more like a woman are something I want in my life then I can naturally turn towards the symbols that represent that notion of womanhood and incorporate that in my manhood. If I determined that that those symbols of womanhood were more entirely relevant than those of manhood, then I would have clearly decided that I was transexual. In my case the symbols and their rewards and consequences indicated that I was bi-gendered, interdressing, interliving, androgyne, genderqueer, or whatever I feel like calling it.

I think I found my answer.  Very well thought out and well presented.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
Because of my beliefs and life in what I percieve as a fluid gender spectrum, I have long thought it was necessary to start building a larger vocabularly and conceptual understanding of transgendered issues. There shouldn't be anything wrong with someone of any birth-sex identifying on any level with the symbols of the "opposite" gender. Yet culturally and socially we are still a long way from this ideal. In the meantime it seems up to us not just understand ourselves on a personal level, for own sanity and happiness, but to understand ourselves completely and have the words to actually explain this to the rest of the world in the ongoing struggle for acceptance.

I thought I would share these somewhat incomplete thoughts in an effort to continue this dialog within our community. While I would like to convey these thoughts with the depth and eloquence of a transgendered Joseph Campbell, these are just a few thoughts to get a dialog going. Hope this helps someone.

As in any in-depth discussion, terms have to be defined in such a way as to convery meaning and avoid ambiguity.  There are many terms used to identify gender vs. birth-sex vs. sexuality, yet most assume a binary position.  Gender is male or female, birth-sex is penis or vagina, sexuality is homo or hetero.  It doesn't work that way.  Some of the "non-gender-speak" terms used are so hard to understand that they will probably never make their way into common usage. 

I agree with you Madison, a larger vocabulary does need to be established.  There is a need to be able to easily explain some very complex matters.  Unfortunately, the world today is a world of sound-bites and 30-minute TV shows.  People do not take time to understand anything that does not directly impact them.  We are all guilty of this as information overload is a fact of life today.  I cannot hold an in-depth discussion of cheese making or fruit fly mating habits, as they do not impact my life.  I can discuss the freedom of microwave cooking and relate, in great detail from personal experience, why being a "couch potato" is not a good thing.

All in all, a very well thought-out and presented discussion.  As more people add to the discussion, this could turn out to be a very very interesting and informative topic.  My mind is working on this and running off on all kinds of tangents.  Thanks for opening up this train of thought.  I'm sure I'll have more to add to this later, after some if it percolates through a little more.  I believe I'm gonna have a great deal of fun working this through and exploring this further with the group.

......Laurie 

Quote
...like you, I have never hated my body.  I have had it for 50 years and am used to it, aches, pains and all...It must be horrible to wake up every day in a body that does not feel "right"...

This is one aspect of ambiguous gender-dysphoria we can at least be thankful for. Though life would be easier if I just liked monster trucks and didn't look so absolutely fabulous in a dress  (oh but if it weren't that simple--that is if gender definitions meant the difference between preferring sports or shopping for shoes!) And are you, um, as smart, or well hung? (sorry off topic).

Quote
Yep.  One closet in my bedroom has male clothes and the other has female.

This is almost worth it's own topic. I used to keep them separate, the male and female type accessories. But then because of the more truly ambiguous items and accessories and the daily genderbending, however subtle, I tried just mixing it all together by type of clothing. But while I don't have that many clothes, I have a lot of clothes, and just picking what I was going to wear became such a chore, and sometimes torturous when I would see my favorite skirt and think, well, maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal to cross dress at work after all. So now I just kind of it partially separated by type of clothing (dresses, skirts, pants) but I separate most of the completely feminine blouses from my more daily male and androgynous type shirts. Otherwise my bathroom is completely mixed and because of gender stereotypes you would simply assume that a woman lived there. I think when I finish the Holly Hobbie design on the bedroom thought the cat will be out of the bag 

Quote
So you are asserting that the reason we outwardly adopt the symbols of feminity is because we identify so strongly with the qualities of feminity.  Culturally speaking, this shows some serious problems...that men are not supposed to be nuturing, sharing and gentle and women are not supposed to be strong and powerful.

That is exactly what I am suggesting. And yes, I think that helps better explain a lot of social problems. Your examples are excellent. While things have been changing (go freedom fighters) but the traditional roles of men and women in many cultures throughout time around the world relegate men and women to specific roles such as you described. Why else would a book title, "Real men don't eat quiche," have any cultural signifigance. Or why would we have invented such things as "Sensitivity Training Classes." Or for that matter why would there have to be an entire movement to free women? These things seem like a given.

Thus by examining the symbols, not only in our personal lives, but in the people around us, we get a better idea of where we are at, and perhaps where we are going.

Quote
Wonder why it is that I find most attractive a person who is strong and powerful, yet very feminine (frilly, sweet, caring, nuturing)?  Maybe because that sounds like a "complete" person...one who is in touch and comfortable with all of the human qualities we rever.

Me too. Balance is very important. And for those of us that identify as androgyne, we would likely find the most comfort and inspiration from those who represent that idealized balance we are seeking in ourselves.

Quote
...that I was a mix of both.  But I also have wondered, knowing I was free emotionally from the male/female role, why am I drawn to physical expressions of both sexes.  Can't I be the same person, don't I still exist at the same place in the gender spectrum, without having the need to physically demonstrate?

Yes, you do exist in the same place without needing to demonstrate it. But the fact is humans represent themselves with symbols. In the case of an androgyne it would be silly to think that all aspects of self, values, and desire would not need to be somehow manifested in your existence.

Another way of looking at it is to think about preparing for a trip. If I am going to take a vacation at a beach resort I would bring beach related attire and toys. Going camping you're going to bring rugged clothing, shoes, and tent. We do our best to prepare ourselves for the situations we will be encountering. Applying this idea on a finer grain to the issue of androgeny, it only seems obvious that we would prepare and represent ourselves with those items and symbols of our identity. In my case identifying socially as an artist type affects me more profoundly in how I dress and behave than anything. However, also identifying as an androgyne, I want to highlight the fact that I am not 100% male by accessorizing as a female. This is likely why in my daily life I tend to be very comfortable presenting as a man with varying degrees of feminine highlights.

---

For me these discussions are especially pertinent in helping to come to grips and better explain some of those things that still perplex and disturb me. While I like to lounge around the house in more femmy clothes, and generally just want to get comfy in shorts/skirt and a shirt, why do I sometimes find myself compelled to push the "drag" envelope, getting decked out with full makeup and party dress just to watch a movie or surf the net. Understanding what symbols are driving this, and how I in "regular" life I find so few opportunities to legitmately express those identifying symbols, may explain why I find occasion to OVERexpress myself. I would love to have some "real" social function that permitted me to wear that dress and get really femme. But that "real" event doesn't exist, so in private I'm forced to overcompensate at times that make no sense even to me.

Also, in the case of the androgyne, I think it is important to understand the mental-emotional aspects of gender more intensely than if we were simply straight or transexual. As a man-man, even a man-man who likes to crochet, I am a man who has an eccentricity. But questions of appearance or attitude don't really come up. Similarly an MTF transexual identifies as a woman and would for all intents and purposes be a woman. The androgyne faces more potential social quagmires. I might like monster trucks but prefer wearing dresses, and that just confuses everybody. Though I would like to believe that even that would eventually only be thought of as normally eccentric (I don't really believe anythng is normal ).

And while we can't seriously expect the rest of the world to try to understand us, I believe it is our responibility to understand ourselves so that we can help them understand when the need arises. That is what I mean by building a vocabulary, be it actual language, symbols, or complex sociological definitions.

Thanks again LaurieO. Yes, people do call me maddy, well some here have. The fact of the matter is Madison is sort of screen name to protect my fragile anonymity. Though I picked Madison as my "female" name to fit in here, my "real" name is considered by most to be a feminine name, so what gives there?

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
This is one aspect of ambiguous gender-dysphoria we can at least be thankful for. Though life would be easier if I just liked monster trucks and didn't look so absolutely fabulous in a dress  (oh but if it weren't that simple--that is if gender definitions meant the difference between preferring sports or shopping for shoes!) And are you, um, as smart, or well hung? (sorry off topic).

True on the thankful.  Damn those shoes...they get me every time too.  Smart?  I'm not as bright as I think I am...trust me.  As for the off topic question...I haven't tripped over it, but I can find it in the dark.   

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
I think when I finish the Holly Hobbie design on the bedroom thought the cat will be out of the bag 

LOL...yeah, that would tend to raise an eyebrow or two.  Maybe you should have Holly Hobbie working on Monster trucks or motocross with Strawberry Shortcake?? Where's Kendra when you need her?  She always comes up with interesting androgynous characters.  I know, a Holly Hobbie / Spaghetti Western Clint Eastwood mix.  A High Plains Hobbie or Holly the Pale Rider kind of character.  She wears a poncho over her dress with a six-shooter strapped to her leg, and bakes the bad guys cakes and cookies before shooting them.  (I am a sick and twisted individual.)

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
Why else would a book title, "Real men don't eat quiche," have any cultural signifigance. Or why would we have invented such things as "Sensitivity Training Classes." Or for that matter why would there have to be an entire movement to free women? These things seem like a given.

Thus by examining the symbols, not only in our personal lives, but in the people around us, we get a better idea of where we are at, and perhaps where we are going.

Because a book titled "Real men eat beef and never ask directions" wouldn't tell us anything new.  Speaking of the quiche book...anyone ever actually read it???  All I know of it is the title.

I have never been to a Sensitivity Training class, but I did spend two days in a Sexual Harrassment class.  By the time it was over, I was so disgusted with the whole thing that I was ready to sue everybody for being so dang stupid.  Another subject, I know, but our society has become so ready to be offended that true sexual harrassment (Boink me or lose your job kinda stuff) gets lumped together with "He said the word breast while I was 100 yards away walking down the hall, and I know it was about what piece of chicken he was eating for lunch, but it still offended me".  Kinda like lumping mass murderers in the same group as people who have watched a show about it on TV...it removes the focus on the real problem and causes people to dismiss it as a trivial problem.

I agree that we should examine not only our own but the symbols of others around us.  If there was a cliff-notes guide to symbol reading, I would buy one in an instant.  The problem is, as soon as you begin to classify types, certain stereotypes become automatically assigned.  It's amazing, but people who almost always react in a stereotypical manner are very rare.  Even the Rednecks and the Tree Huggers surprise you sometimes.

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
Me too. Balance is very important. And for those of us that identify as androgyne, we would likely find the most comfort and inspiration from those who represent that idealized balance we are seeking in ourselves.

Well said.

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
Yes, you do exist in the same place without needing to demonstrate it. But the fact is humans represent themselves with symbols. In the case of an androgyne it would be silly to think that all aspects of self, values, and desire would not need to be somehow manifested in your existence.

Another way of looking at it is to think about preparing for a trip. If I am going to take a vacation at a beach resort I would bring beach related attire and toys. Going camping you're going to bring rugged clothing, shoes, and tent. We do our best to prepare ourselves for the situations we will be encountering. Applying this idea on a finer grain to the issue of androgeny, it only seems obvious that we would prepare and represent ourselves with those items and symbols of our identity. In my case identifying socially as an artist type affects me more profoundly in how I dress and behave than anything. However, also identifying as an androgyne, I want to highlight the fact that I am not 100% male by accessorizing as a female. This is likely why in my daily life I tend to be very comfortable presenting as a man with varying degrees of feminine highlights.

So, symbols are so deeply ingrained in us that it is painful for us (or at least discomforting) to feel certain characteristics and not be able to outwardly express them.  This would certainly explain why I feel more peaceful wearing lipstick or nail polish.  It would be very interesting to perform a study to determine which symbols relate specifically to which qualities or characteristics we are presenting.   Does the pink blouse or the ivory one mean I am feeling nuturing?  Or is it the frills that dictate that and the color is unimportant?  Or does the pink frilly blouse and the ivory frill-less blouse mean the same thing?  Holy cow would that be a statistical nightmare.  How many of the symbols we adopt are conscious and how many sub-conscious?  Everybody hypnotize themselves and explore your sub-conscious mind...when you reach total enlightment, count to three and wake up, but be sure you remember to set the post-hypnotic suggestion to forget whatever you found there.  (OK, that was just strange.)

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
For me these discussions are especially pertinent in helping to come to grips and better explain some of those things that still perplex and disturb me. While I like to lounge around the house in more femmy clothes, and generally just want to get comfy in shorts/skirt and a shirt, why do I sometimes find myself compelled to push the "drag" envelope, getting decked out with full makeup and party dress just to watch a movie or surf the net. Understanding what symbols are driving this, and how I in "regular" life I find so few opportunities to legitmately express those identifying symbols, may explain why I find occasion to OVERexpress myself. I would love to have some "real" social function that permitted me to wear that dress and get really femme. But that "real" event doesn't exist, so in private I'm forced to overcompensate at times that make no sense even to me.

You mean that everybody doesn't put on full makeup, panty hose and their favorite killer dress just to feed the dog?  I experience the same feelings of overexpression at times, and they don't make a lot of sense to me either.  I don't know if I am expressing repressed feelings and thus trying to achieve balance, or if I am just feeling unusually male or female that day.   Does the phase of the moon have any effect on this "overexpression"?  There are other documented oddities of behaviour that are linked to the lunar cycle.

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
And while we can't seriously expect the rest of the world to try to understand us, I believe it is our responibility to understand ourselves so that we can help them understand when the need arises. That is what I mean by building a vocabulary, be it actual language, symbols, or complex sociological definitions.

Thanks again LaurieO. Yes, people do call me maddy, well some here have. The fact of the matter is Madison is sort of screen name to protect my fragile anonymity. Though I picked Madison as my "female" name to fit in here, my "real" name is considered by most to be a feminine name, so what gives there?

Figuring out myself is too hard...I think I'll let you do all the thinking and just copy your answers. 

OK Madison...your fragile anonymity intact, as much as it can be with your picture plastered to each post, I will let you head back to your world.  I'm getting kinda slap-happy, so it must be way past my bedtime.

Nite nite.........Laurie   

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
The other day getting out of the shower I caught sight of my makeup case, hung off hooks on the bathroom door, the hard case of blue plastic, patent leather straps, and the symbols of various high heels, lipstick, and other icons of femininity. While I own a variety of high heels, lipstick and other feminine items and accessories, they are really only a part of my life. Sometimes a large part, sometimes a minor part, but they are always present. Then it occurred to me, looking around the rest of the bathroom, at the different lotions, facial cleansers, and various personal items around my sink that if you didn't know who lived there you might think it was a woman. Everywhere I looked in my personal space were symbols of who I was.

You made me look at my bathroom. My makeup case I keep bellow the sink. Just as important symbol to me is my Remington Titanium electric blade and unscented Sure spray also in the bathroom. Or my jewelry box with earrings, necklaces, and my big Citizen watch. A mixture of male and female type items, though to me knows no gender, in that they are all mine for my gender. My closet has a mixture of slacks, polo shirts, blouses, a few dresses, sneakers, workboots, dresses, and clothes I have sewed on my side. She has her stuff on the other side of the walk in closet. My wigs sit on top on wig holder heads. Yes these are symbols of who I am.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 05:55:10 AM
The symbols of femininity and womanhood not only helped shape my identity, but were logical extentions of my identity before I even understood the concepts of gender. By understanding the pros and cons of the meanings behind the symbols we want in our life we can better understand who we are and who we want to be.

I have always been (state of being) a certain way. That way knew no gender. Gender itself was judged, manipulated, attempted to be influenced, and assumed upon me, not by myself but others. I always knew how I felt, but didnt want to be "wrong". They fooled me a little while into thinking I should be a certain way (sorta hard not to when its so universally done). Until I realized they were wrong, and it was my decision to be naturally who I am.

But I do realize that they are social split into symbols and meaning (and social genders). I am not a fool to believe that society thinks like me. There are thankfully others that feel similar in that I am not alone in this world. Though we each have individual tastes, its good to know there are others  and that I am not just a freak of nature (or I am a freak among other freaks, depending on how you want to look at it).

Quote from: madison link=topic=7090.msg54180#msg54180]To me, the freedom came when I began to (stealing a word from you) resonate with the nature of the gender spectrum and the liberating understanding that I was not stuck trying to make myself fit a male or female role...that I was a mix of both.  But I also have wondered, knowing I was free emotionally from the male/female role, why am I drawn to physical expressions of both sexes.  Can't I be the same person, don't I still exist at the same place in the gender spectrum, without having the need to physically demonstrate?

I think many people dont like to be held captive and imprisonned. Or living a lie trying to hide any small expression from others, so they dont find out how you really feel inside. When I express and allow myself to be in public who I know I am and feel good about myself including gender, is a great thing for everyone. Its called self-esteem. When I hide my gender, I really had no total self-esteem. Just a severally almost blank empty shell of pretending, though buried deep inside was more wanting life.

After all Self-Esteem, Truth, Honesty, and Trust are important values.

QuoteI have a T-shirt I wear while presenting male that says "Hung like Einstein and Smart as a Horse"...I wear it simply to make people wonder.

Hehe ...Nice.

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 03:10:38 AM
Though life would be easier if I just liked monster trucks...

I do think monster trucks are cool.

QuoteQuote from: madison on Today at 03:10:38 AM

QuoteI think when I finish the Holly Hobbie design on the bedroom thought the cat will be out of the bag 

LOL...yeah, that would tend to raise an eyebrow or two.  Maybe you should have Holly Hobbie working on Monster trucks or motocross with Strawberry Shortcake?? Where's Kendra when you need her?  She always comes up with interesting androgynous characters.  I know, a Holly Hobbie / Spaghetti Western Clint Eastwood mix.  A High Plains Hobbie or Holly the Pale Rider kind of character.  She wears a poncho over her dress with a six-shooter strapped to her leg, and bakes the bad guys cakes and cookies before shooting them.  (I am a sick and twisted individual.)

Characters are fun. Characters allow you to work with symbols.

There's Ken/Kendra...I knew all I had to do was wish for her and there she would be.  Thanks honey.

Quote from: Kendra on November 05, 2006, 10:37:41 AM
I always knew how I felt, but didnt want to be "wrong". They fooled me a little while into thinking I should be a certain way (sorta hard not to when its so universally done). Until I realized they were wrong, and it was my decision to be naturally who I am.

Society can exert a great deal of pressure through well-meaning parents and friends.  The same Mom who feeds and nurtures you, also teaches you to dress in certain ways.  What you are taught as a child about "appropriate dress" can be difficult to overcome.  It takes having a real breakthrough to understand that these "rules" you have been taught are really only guidelines at best.  Once you realize that we are not bound by these guidelines (I never signed anything, did you?) we have the freedom to express ourselves in any way we want.  It doesn't mean others will accept our choices, there will always be those threatened by the extraordinary, but nobody said we have to obtain their approval.

Quote from: Kendra on November 05, 2006, 10:37:41 AM
I am not a fool to believe that society thinks like me. There are thankfully others that feel similar in that I am not alone in this world. Though we each have individual tastes, its good to know there are others  and that I am not just a freak of nature (or I am a freak among other freaks, depending on how you want to look at it).

"Aw, don't sell yourself short, you're a tremendous fool" he said in his best Chevy Chase Caddyshack voice.   Sorry 'bout that, but somethings I just can't resist.   >

You are absolutely right.  It is a tremendous comfort to realize that although we have a different perspective on life than society at large, there are others that understand and agree with our perspective.  Few of us are strong enough to fight our entire culture on our own.  Knowing that there are others who feel as we do allows us to find the strength to throw off the restrictions that stiffle our self expression.

Quote from: Kendra on November 05, 2006, 10:37:41 AM
I think many people dont like to be held captive and imprisonned. Or living a lie trying to hide any small expression from others, so they dont find out how you really feel inside. When I express and allow myself to be in public who I know I am and feel good about myself including gender, is a great thing for everyone. Its called self-esteem. When I hide my gender, I really had no total self-esteem. Just a severally almost blank empty shell of pretending, though buried deep inside was more wanting life.

After all Self-Esteem, Truth, Honesty, and Trust are important values.

Beautiful. 

Quote from: Kendra on November 05, 2006, 10:37:41 AM
Characters are fun. Characters allow you to work with symbols.

Darn...I was really hoping for someone (Ken/Kendra) to create some fantastic characters, illustrating a combination of both the extremes of gender identification and denoting the absurdity of societal norms (whatever all that meant).

Guess I'll have to come up with a few myself to prime the pump.  How about a Superman/Jessica Rabbit combination that has the Fortress of Solitude decorated to the hilt with help from Martha Stewart's Living.

Brings to mind the Mira Sorvino character from My Cousin Vinnie...feminine as can be, (and sexy as hell), but an "expert witness" regarding general automotive knowledge...everybody laughed and couldn't accept the fact that someone can be both.

.......Laurie

 

Here something I just made real fast to sorta go along with the theme.

Man you guys pretty much say how i feel or agree with in a lot of ways, I am not transitioning but that does not mean i cannot have fun or pretend..
I do find myself drawn to lighter colors at times and then woodsy or deeper ones (nuetral caolors too) ones that are soft or evoke quiet passion, etc..
I like purple my favorite color all shades which can then match my mood.  I do not like reds or dark reds that power color! Ugghhhhh
Same thing with jewelry or things they seem to me to be gender nuetral...
Maybe that's why i just do not wear it in the first place.  My one gay friend wears a very obvious nice gold ring on hsi hand, i never thought to ask him but is that a thing i dunno?
anyway awesome stuff here it took me a few minutes to read through but your words and thoughts  (kendra and Madison and Laurie) mean a lot to me!
Ricki

I'm afraid that you'd have to look hard to find any symbols in my house representing either side of the fence.  With the exception of my teddy bear, I have nothing that clearly expresses manly or feminine inhabitation.  ...now....in hubby's corner, he has some sports trophies and implements that accomodate bullets.

And if you looked in the closet, it would be slightly more boring.  In there you'll see stacks of tee shirts, boxes with Christmas decorations, and an assemblage of simple shoes.

You could find my make up and dressy things too in the back and in the drawers.  But you would not see a single outward sign.  I have non descript art on the wall and only functional furniture.  Every room has a lot of book cases.  I believe that one should read and own a book for each week of life.... at least that's what hubby says about me.

I like the clean lines and design Shaker and FLW styles of simple living.  When I think about it, I'm really pretty boring!

Now, this thread has got me thinking what I should be doing with the rest of my life....  I could learn flower arranging!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 06, 2006, 12:08:17 AM
You could find my make up and dressy things too in the back and in the drawers.  But you would not see a single outward sign.  I have non descript art on the wall and only functional furniture.  Every room has a lot of book cases.  I believe that one should read and own a book for each week of life.... at least that's what hubby says about me.

I like the clean lines and design Shaker and FLW styles of simple living.  When I think about it, I'm really pretty boring!

Now, this thread has got me thinking what I should be doing with the rest of my life....  I could learn flower arranging!

Cindi

There is much to be said for a person not burdened with the clutter of stuff that most of us have.  So many of us have so much junk that we have whole drawers, cabinets, rooms, garages and/or storage sheds dedicated to stuff we think we just have to have, not realizing how much energy it takes from us just to deal with it.

I too read a lot and own more books than I know what to do with.  It has reached the point that I only keep the really special ones and give the rest to friends.  Half Price Bookstore has saved me a fortune over the years.

As far as being boring...join the club.  Free membership, but if you get too excited about it, we kick you out.

Flower arranging sounds great...enjoy it and find fulfillment in freeing your creative soul.

.....Laurie

Great topic! I also waited to read all the posts fully before responding. My clothes closet has a mix of jeans and flannel shirts, flowing colorful skirts and rayon or silk shirts and blouses. The rest of the house doesn't necessarily tell you which genders of people live there, except that we have too much stuff and not enough places to put it all.

Although society might identify certain objects or behaviors as male or female, I don't subscribe to stereotypical concepts of what things I should do or have. I've never felt that I fit into being a male, but when I came to awareness of myself as TG, I also found that I had little in common with many other TS/TG people that I met and how they expressed or thought about gender.

It's interesting to think of what archetypes and symbols might exist for a transperson or androgyne. I don't have any answers at the moment, except that perhaps a mix of symbols makes the most sense.

zythyra

Since starting this topic, especially after reading so many incredible responses, and I have continued to ponder it.

The other night at a coffee shop I saw a man wearing a t-shirt proclaiming, "Old Guys Rule." And I wondered, when I am older, would I wear that shirt, or even use that phrase? And why? I also considered how its meaning might change for me if it said, "Old Chics Rule."

Anytime we put a bumper sticker on our car, wear a message on a t-shirt, choose which car we are going to drive, or what style of fashion we are going to wear, we are choosing symbols that tell the world something about us, as much as they represent something for ourselves. As a putative androgyne it seems logical to want to express this somehow. But if I were to wear an, "Old Guys Rule," t-shirt, I would be completely identifying as a "guy." Same idea if it said, "Chics rule," and so on.

The t-shirt and its message were accompanied by images of surfing, and its intent being a humorous message to the younger hot shots out in the surf, that the old guys can still cut it. But what if the shirt made its statement accompanied with icons of butterflies, flowers, feminine apparel, sewing, or modern dance instead of surfing? Would I have instantly thought, "Yeah! Old guys do rule!" *

The point I'm trying to make is that the role of the androgyne is forced by the enforced dichtomy of gender to make choices between polar concepts. And yet, if my androgyny is as I claim, I should be most attracted to symbols that actually represent that state of being, like a pink t-shirt that proclaims boy-power in a big magenta heart or some such nonsense. But it is unclear if I would in fact be attracted to that. Maybe I would still want it say girl-power, but why is there even a question?

The reality is, that intergender symbology simply does not exist, at least in any significant way, and where it does, it is often more associated with the GLBT movement than issues of gender identification. Therefore, I presume that some part of me is drawn more to identify with the notion of the female and femininity, than a more healthy feminine male representation of my putative androgyny, because that symbology is not an accepted method of expression in my culture, and therefore does not inherently offer any comfort.

Yet, since seeing that shirt several days ago, I believe more and more that I want such a symbology, I want more ways to express with pride, unlike the frustrations of transexuals, that I AM a MAN in a DRESS! And ain't he cute. **

---

* Truth is if I really saw a shirt like that, I would obviously think it was just the most amazing thing I'd seen all day. But that would be in part because it so rare, not simply because I may or may not identify with it.

** As opposed to the more likely: weak, disgusting, freakish, absurd, screwed up, disturbed, confused, troubled, perverted, keep your kids away, get that ->-bleeped-<- attitude that is not uncommon at present.

---

Also some thoughts on recent responses:

Zythyra, you make affirm my sentiments so well. "I don't subscribe to stereotypical concepts of what things I should do or have." And while stereotypes are never wholly accurate, like most labels, they give a way of understanding and means of reference that would be too difficult on the individual level. Unfortunately so many stereotypes are in the perjorative, and do nothing to actually convey understanding. Perhaps it is time with we helped form those archetypes and build a symbology that does say with pride who we are.

Oh and thank you for sharing the history of your name. I just love it. Multi-cultural, multi-gender, multi-era, pleasant to say, pretty and strong!

Cindi, if I remember correctly from other posts, you are post-op. And from that perspective we get an interesting take on the notion of androgyne representation. Having completed a journey to the apppropriate physical sex, your most powerful symbol is simply living. You may never feel compelled to leave a feminine item lying about because everything you have and are, regardless of its overt gender identification, is a symbol of your life, and of your particular femininity. And that is what I'm seeking for the androgyne, some way of representing and expressing that one aspect of my life. I can't just say, "well I'll just become a woman." That is not who I am, and doing so would just put me in the same closet on the other side of the knife (though admittedly ambigious gender identification seems more acceptable for women, hmmmm ) Though, as Laurie pointed out, everybody could learn something about getting rid of clutter in their lives (regardless of symbology). I've been trying for years. While failing miserably, I turn towards eastern notions of empty space in an effort to attain that absence of clutter, both in mind and home!

Ricki, I am glad you find some comfort in these thoughts. For me though it so important to not just pretend. Though I know as adults we don't pretend enough for fun and play, and maybe too much in business, marketing, and politics! Seriously though, I'm not pretending to be or do anything. I am a cute boy in an adorable outfit waxing on human behavior on a transgendered forum. No more, no less. I don't have any existential angst regarding that reality, it is the reality of being so grossly misunderstood, made fun of, and maliciously attacked as source of so much obloquy, both personally and stereotypically, that I have the problem.

Kendra, as usual wisdom flows from you like so much fresh water from a mountain spring. Like so many others have repeatedly expressed, it is a wonderful feeling to know you aren't alone. I would suggest we found our own city, except then we would no longer be contributing our richness of being and hopes for balance to the greater societal meme pool. I agree that it is important not too hide, that we must express ourselves. Self-esteem is so important, and sadly it seems to be a ubiquitious struggle for the androgyne in cultures that do not openly accept or acknowledge our existence. With the help of everyone here, I can watch as my self-esteem grows. Thank you. Oh and thanks for the graphic. I wouldn't even mind being that muscle bound if I had hair like that 

QuotePerhaps it is time with we helped form those archetypes and build a symbology that does say with pride who we are.

I'm not sure I'd know where to start, but yes, we should be the ones to create our own archetypes. I've seen some beautiful ancient cross gender icons from other cultures, face made up half male half female. One that comes to mind for our modern times, and living here in New England, would be wearing hir dress with snow boots instead of high heels. 

zythyra

Madison I'll say this, if you are not a writer you SHOULD BE!  you have a way with words, I think i am a much better talker than typer.
Example, most of my bosses always tell me in evaluation time that my email skill-sets (ingredient of the emails) need some polishing.
Agghhh i love that last year i had a boss that could not attach something to an email and would ask for my help with it THEN....he'd do my eval and tell me the content of my emails was abbrassive at work and needed polishing?  He was right and they do but i saw the irony in it "someone like say who could not drive a car tell you the sterring is a little lose in it?" WeHeeeeeeee
anyway i'll follow along if this goes along...
I do have a symbol i do not actually know for sure if its a mistake or not but years back i had the transgendered symbol in form of small tattoo put near my pubic region lower belly.....Sorry is that not a symbol or not quite the one we are discussing?

Quote from: madison on November 06, 2006, 04:19:12 PM

The reality is, that intergender symbology simply does not exist, at least in any significant way, and where it does, it is often more associated with the GLBT movement than issues of gender identification. Therefore, I presume that some part of me is drawn more to identify with the notion of the female and femininity, than a more healthy feminine male representation of my putative androgyny, because that symbology is not an accepted method of expression in my culture, and therefore does not inherently offer any comfort.

Yet, since seeing that shirt several days ago, I believe more and more that I want such a symbology, I want more ways to express with pride, unlike the frustrations of transexuals, that I AM a MAN in a DRESS! And ain't he cute. **

I wear  a ring that I feel is my androgyne ring. Half silver, half gold, within circles. Sorta goes with my yin-yang belief https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6416.0.html

Thank you for the compliment Ricki. Kendra and Zythyra, these are excellent example of literal symbols and mythological archetypes. But Ricki, by way of clarification, I am more touching on the subject of the abstract concept of symbols as they relate to everyday life. As in the example of what actual objects some of us have in our personal space. Every object in your personal space becomes a symbol, and in a sense more so if the owner of the object is not there to explain the purpose of the object. If you were to walk into a room and the closet was full of frilly dresses and high heeled shoes and the walls are pink with flowers, the average person would assume that this was a women's room. So in the case of the androgyne, being between genders in some way, what symbols do we have that actually reflect our state of being.

Kendra has chosen to utilize an actual icon to represent how she feels about her and her life. This is excellent, and I believe she has a whole thread about her thoughts on the yin/yang symbol and how it relates to androgyny. And though abstract, I am also seeking more literal symbols by way of every day items, such as clothing, that would most demonstrate and enhance the way I actually feel, not exactly a man or a woman, but something all together. As in why most women's clothes don't fit right because they have darting an extra space for breasts as one example. Something as simple as certain blouse and dress designs being recut sans these features so as to compliment a male figure but still express the same type of style.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: madison on November 07, 2006, 12:36:22 AM
Something as simple as certain blouse and dress designs being recut sans these features so as to compliment a male figure but still express the same type of style.

Gotta have a little darting, or else I can't show off my man-boobs!  But comic reference (and amazing visual) aside, I understand what you mean.  Clothing cut and designed in traditional male style, but produced in feminine patterns and materials.  I personally think the bluejeans with spandex for that stretchy feel are wonderful.  I wish my "traditionally male" clothes felt as great as my "traditionally female" clothes.  Soft, silky, stretchy, smooth...unfortunately, words that are not generally used to describe clothes purchased in the Men's section of your local department store.  Neckties are about the only items that can have any real sense of self-expression (and wearing one every day is not a lot of fun).  I guess because "real men" are "tough" their clothing doesn't have to feel good...sheesh...what a crock.

I think you are on to something here Madison...wonder how we get Macy's and Nordstrum's to begin pushing our new style (and thus make all of us incredibly rich)?

OK...work comes too early in the morning and I guess I really will head off to sleep this time.  For those of you who should be doing the same thing....May flights of angels sing thee to thy sleep

........Laurie

QuoteI think you are on to something here Madison...wonder how we get Macy's and Nordstrum's to begin pushing our new style (and thus make all of us incredibly rich)?

Now we're talking! A ->-bleeped-<-/androgynous section in the shops. I'm there
But until then, thrift shops will do fine for my clothing needs.

zythyra

Hi madison!  I thoguht that in a way...th symbols,  i want to think about it cause i sort of surround myslef with very specific things and colors....
I have to think more on it i am saturating myelf with vodka to numb my brian with booze.. Tomorrow it seems will not be a pleasant day at work!..........

I identify well with this thread and some of the comments.

I consider myself to be an intergendered interdresser, as I identify mentally/emotionally as female (well, perhaps a butch female, but I fall smack in the middle of "female" on gender identity tests."  While I employ articles of traditionally female clothing, including heels, in my daily attire, as well as jewelry and occasional light makeup, I do not for the purpose of appearing as a female.  Not trying to appear male, either!  I simply choose to wear clothing which suits me as I am.

I'm curious as to why we (society) are bi-polar when it comes to gender expression?  It used to be (in Western society, anyway) that the men are men, and the women are women, and the area betwixt shall never blur!  Then transexuality was accepted by the all-knowing (good grief...) psych community, but that's still a bi-polar form of gender expression.  Then homosexuality was accepted when it ceased to be demonized in the DSM-IV in the 70s.  Still, that was considered acceptable, provided the individual presented in the attire of their own gentic sex.  In recent years, cross-dressing made some inroads, but it, too, remains a bipolar issues - the impetus remains to appear as a member of the opposite sex, and there is very strong emphasis on "passing."

But what if I'm not interested in passing?  What if my goal isn't to appear as a member of the opposite sex?  What if I simply want to appear as me, perhaps in a pair of gray/silver sweat pants, Sudini ankle boots, and a mandarin collar tunic (such as I'm wearing now)?  And who's business is it if enjoy improving my eyes with a touch of liner, mascara, or shadow?

As usual, our female counterparts are way ahead of us, and many have been wearing pants or shorts, going without makeup, and wearing short hair for years.  Some of them even shop on the (gasp!) male racks, wearing the same, without ever trying to appear as men.

So why do we "have" to appear en-femme just to get away with wearing clothing intented/designed for the feminine form?

When I go out, no one mistakes me for a female, nor do I present as a botched attempt as a cross-dresser/->-bleeped-<-.  I am simply being me!

In my previous profession, the dress code prevented me from wearing my hair below my collar.  Thankfully, that's changed, and I'm working on something like this (http://mensfashion.about.com/od/goominghair/ss/longhairstyles_4.htm), only longer, and since I have natural curls, those would see the light of day again, as they did back in college.

One of my favorite movie-going ensembles is a simple high-collar, long-sleeved, ankle-length dress.  It doesn't look like a dress, but rather, looks more like a full-length frock, but without any front opening (it has  hidden back 10-inch zipper).  I usually wear this with my mid-heeled ankle boots, short androgynous dangle earrings, a touch of eye makeup, and occasionally some muted (flesh-tone) fingernail polish.  I used to live in Vegas, went out like this all the time, and aside from the occasional sideways glance, no one cared!  The first time I was full of trepidation, but about the 20th time I began to realize it just doesn't matter. 

By the 50th time (shortly after which I moved), it was simply the external extension of my internal self.

And yet I find I am largely alone.  Aside from a group of male heel-wearers with whom I've been associated for several years, I've yet to find any real, live support groups for intergendered/interdressing people like myself, and instead find support groups which remain largely polarized.

If anyone can help me in this endeavor, please post some links!

Thanks.