QuoteThe thing is, physically, cisguys and girls at least, are not equal. I know, because when I was still a "girl" and I had an abusive partner I could hit him til the cows came home and although I left some nasty bruises, he was never scared of me.  He was in control. When he held me down so I couldn't move and threatened to beat the living sh*t out of me, it was terrifying. I actually couldn't move. He wasn't a big guy, but that just drove the point home that he was physically stronger than me.  It was horrible.

It's just that 90% of the time, girls hitting guys are not in the same catagory as guys hitting girls.  I am not denying that there are abusive women out there.  However, the victims of physical abusive, and other types of domestic abuse are largely women.

If you're a decent man and yr girlfriend starts slapping and hitting you for no good reason, the right thing to do is to remove yourself from the situation.  Say you're not going to engage in that kinda stuff.  A guy's minor smack can really hurt a girl. You don't know your own strength.

I also think people choose to ignore the reasons girls might hit guys.  It usually comes from a place of helplessness and desperation rather than power.  What I've seen at least.  And I've seen a lot.

Quoted for truth

Sometimes some folks just need to calm down in my opinion lol. Women who generally must accept lower salaries to their masculine counterparts in the same occupational field is an instance of sexism. The assumption that women can't be mechanics or drive a decent airplane is an instance of sexism. Blaming women for dressing provocatively or walking in the wrong part of town after they had been raped is an instance of sexism. Excuse me for my ignorance but crying sexism when someone opens the door for you in a hallway just sounds ridiculous to me - perhaps I'm reading folks statements wrong. We don't want the word sexism to become as overused and deluded as the word racism is starting to become. That kind of stuff erodes the significance and meaning from the word.

Most men generally think about sex four or five times a day according to a study conducted by the Kinsey institute. Do men open doors to score sexual points? Absolutely. They will usually proceed to stare at your ass as you walk by. I know I might be playing up stereotypes, and I know this is the wrong forum for that, but really - Having thoughts and feelings like this is typical and normal in men. It's not alarming or creepy. I think a lot of FTMs on T can vouch for how horny it makes you. I think it would be unfair to expect otherwise.

All in all, If I ever see a girl who gives me an attitude for being polite because they've got it in their head that by being courteous I'm actually being misogynistic I might think her cheese had slid off her cracker.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 18, 2010, 01:13:36 AM
You mean benevolent sexism - and yes, you can keep it; put it in a box in the attic and leave it there.

Ah Vexing, I think your little hard on James, I think that girl had an attitude towards James.

Quote from: James-Allen on June 18, 2010, 01:10:38 AM
I always liked those traditional 'boy' rules of being a gentleman, mostly because they feel like something that sets us apart you know? I suppose, though, it would be right for everyone to be polite to everyone else. I feel a little bit like being a 'gentleman' to women is ours.

I understand what you mean, and you are a Gentleman, your can open my door anytime, my Dad was a real traditional Gentleman, treated my Mother like a lady, treated me like a lady when my transition was complete, when a guy opens a door for me, it makes feel feminine, everybody deserves respect, but I like a guy who has respect for a woman, I do like a Gentleman.
p

Thinking someone opening a door for you signifies inferiority seems like a personal issue. I'm not a raging sex machine, in fact, I'm not even straight. There's no oggling going on, it's just nice, especially since women actually acknowledge you. opening the door for a guy is polite I suppose, but mostly just awkward. maybe it's because I live in a conservative town where having a ->-bleeped-<- open a door for you is actually worse than doing in yourself, but that's the result. You're not being oppressed because I pulled the chair out for you at the table, you're being oppressed when you can't wear pants or vote. I don't understand with all the big issues in the world why manner etiquette so heavily threatens your feelings of strength as a woman. If you as a person don't like it, tell the guy in the wrong that you don't appreciate his offer. Don't cry 'woman hater'.


You're taking this issue WAY too far. Comparing holding a door open for you to rape is just insanity. Personally, with all the delinquents and jerks in the world right now (I ride public transit a lot so I meet plenty of them), teaching them some semblance of manners is a step up. I'd rather guys held doors open for women then slapped their arses like they did in High School. You might as well wear a sign around you neck that says how men shouldn't treat you, like a set of pool rules, then men will be 'better next time' and not try to care about you.

I agree with Vexing.  Door holding seems harmless, but the idea behind it is definitely sexist.  I think most people can see the difference between common courtesy door holding - my school has swipe card access of every door, so if you see someone a few meters behind you, of course you'd hold the door, male or female - but chivalrous practices like that are different.  Some women do enjoy it, as seen on this thread, but it doesn't mean all do. It can be tricky though, because I will help anyone with their bags, or the door, male or female if they appear to be struggling.  But that's totally different to being a "gentleman".

I think practices and attitudes like this subconsciously help keep sexist attitudes attitudes alive.  As a trans man I feel a responsibility to be non sexist and will be keeping my attitudes in check once I start T.  Being hornier or whatever is not an excuse for me to be creepy towards women. I've been a feminist since forever and I intend to keep it that way.

sex·ism   (sěk'sĭz'əm)   
n.
Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.

Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.


While it MAY be a sexist trait...it isn't a BAD one unless other avenues go with it. I've always lived by the rule of thumb: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

But then..how do you know if the male that's opening the door for you is being sexist or if he does it for men too? Stop and ask? I was brought up in the south and that's just how we are...you say hello to everyone you see, smile and yes, hold doors open. I like doors held open for me even...if I see someone going through a door and they know I'm behind them and they just walk through, I think them rude...

And I truly don't think holding a door open for a lady and smiling at her makes her frail or weak. And I certainly don't THINK that either...Not all men run around thinking women are weak in this day and age anyway, from what I've seen. In fact, we see them as very strong when they want to be...but then you DO have them weak women and/or those women that take advantage of a man's position as well...there's sexism on all sides...to say a man is holding a door open is sexist, is sexist in itself...At least that's how I personally see it.

And the occasional stranger you never seen before and never will see again?

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 19, 2010, 02:58:34 AM
I don't judge random strangers; until proven otherwise, I assume that they hold doors open for everyone - regardless of gender.
What, did you think I get my RAGE helmet on every time a man holds a door open for me?

That's a little...out there to ask..Actually..I didn't think anything. Was trying to get to the bottom of..'Holding a door open for a woman is sexist' thing...Trying to wrap my brain around your brain so I can understand where you're coming from. I don't make assumed thoughts on how another thinks...So, there has to be an actual path and observation stage before they're considered a 'sexist'? That I can hang with...from how the conversation was going, it was starting to sound like all men should never ever hold a door open for a woman or they're a sexist pig.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 19, 2010, 03:41:31 AM
These statements are contradictory.

No, one statement was based on the way you thought I thought of you PERSONALLY. The other statement was based on how the conversation was swaying for me to come to a theory on what's being discussed. Not contradictory at all. I had not come up with any personal views on yourself or anything you do in your life...whether you wear a rage helmet or not is irrelevant to me. But, I was trying to get a better understanding of the topic at hand, hence the other part of the statement...the conversation was leaning to this or that understanding of said conversation

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 19, 2010, 04:09:05 AM
We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

I think we will all just  have to agree to disgree on what is sexist, personal opinion and personal experience, my own personal experience and opinion on men opening doors for ladies its not sexist but just good etiquette.
Sexist is bad and threating behavior.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 18, 2010, 04:27:58 PM

The origin of door-holding is 'chivalry' (modern chivalry, not the knightly stuff). Chivalry expresses the idea that women are weak, frail, delicate and beautiful, while men are strong, robust, durable and handsome - therefore men, being the stronger, more robust of the sexes, should perform certain duties for women, since women are so frail and delicate that they couldn't possibly cope with such activities on their own (like carrying things for them, holding doors open for them and putting their coat over puddles, since women are so mentally fragile they might have a conniption fit if they get a spot of mud on their frock).
That's sexism.

Is the above sexism, now I wouldnd describe myself frail or delicate and my boyfriend doesn't put his coat over puddles, but he does carry heavy things for me and always open and hold a door for me, Im not embarrass to say it but I probably would have a conniption if I got mud on a gorgeous expensive frock.
2weeks ago we where both at a 40th Birthday, when it was over it was absolutely pouring rain outside, all I had on was a black lace dress and light jacket strappy heels, no hat nothing, boyfriend insisted on bringing car to the door from the carpark, he got soggy wet, but got an unbrella for me so as I didn't get wet, gosh when I think about it now he probably would have put his coat over the puddles so that my feet would stay dry, but he didn't lol he did open the car door and held it till I got in, such a relief to get in from the awful rain.
Anyway when we both got into the car I thank him, he kiss me and said ''your worth it sweetie'' that made me glow, yes I am worth it, Im a woman, he treats me like a lady, he spoils me, he's a real Gentleman, theres nothing sexist in that, just my 2cents.
p

QuoteIt doesn't matter what 'scale' it is on; be it victim blaming after a rape or a man holding the door open because someone is a woman - it's still sexism. Trying to downplay a kind of sexism because you think it isn't as serious and because you think it 'erodes' the term is borderline misogyny.

I completely agree with you - only what sucks is that you completely mis-read my position, which means we're going to have to engage in the much loathed internet back&forth.

I didn't name those instances of sexism to imply that some forms of sexism are more critical than other forms. What I was trying to do was demonstrate what was sexism and what wasn't. In short, as far as door holding is concerned, I simply think that you're reading way too into it.

QuoteThe origin of door-holding is 'chivalry' (modern chivalry, not the knightly stuff). Chivalry expresses the idea that women are weak, frail, delicate and beautiful, while men are strong, robust, durable and handsome - therefore men, being the stronger, more robust of the sexes, should perform certain duties for women, since women are so frail and delicate that they couldn't possibly cope with such activities on their own (like carrying things for them, holding doors open for them and putting their coat over puddles, since women are so mentally fragile they might have a conniption fit if they get a spot of mud on their frock).

I come from the school of thought that if you're going to offer courtesy to someone, it wouldn't make any sense not to offer that same courtesy to someone else for any reason based on class, gender, race, or what have you. Having said that, no one who holds the door for anyone does so with the personal intention to demonstrate any inherent weakness, or to imply that women are actually too weak to open doors on their own. I also don't think it makes any sense to judge folks by standards that were defined in the middle of the 5th century. Furthermore, I don't think simply acknowledging the sexes equates to unequal treatment.

I've heard the chivalry bit coming out of feminists before. I appreciate feminists and their perspectives. However, it really sounds as if the real beef here is a stereotype that would suggest an assumption that woman directly equates to femininity. The characteristics you've outlined - fine and delicate - are all part of the very definition of femininity - But no one ever made the implication that these were somehow inherently negative. You seemed to make this implication by being offended that someone would treat you as something that had feminine characteristics.

By extension, if you were offended that someone would treat you as someone that had feminine characteristics, then it sounds like you would have a problem with femininity to begin with. Personally I love being treated delicately - because I'm under no illusion that being delicate in and of itself is inferiority to masculinity. The irony is that you tend to play to the stereotype that masculinity is superior to femininity by being offended when folks treat you and respond to you as something synonymous with feminine characteristics. All this in the pursuit to empower women.

Again, I'm not trying to offend - I'm just trying to understand. I would say that being offended when folks throw you what is ultimately a kind gesture is a dysfunctional way to respond to it. Folks who open the door for women are about as sexist as golf caddies are military men. [Look that up on your own time].

So holding the door open for someone equates benevolent sexism. I'm sorry vexing. I just can't say this with a straight face.

To summarize my perspective on the article, it goes on to suggest that typical feminine traits [nurturing helpful and warm] equate to lower social status and should not be reinforced. I think the only thing that's sexist here is A) the premise that those traits were inferior to begin with B) Those traits are only suited in the domestic arena and C) somehow it is implied that by having those traits you simply can't be independent or ambitious or have any masculine traits at the same time.

If it makes sense to you then that's fine, but you know what you could do to really empower women? You could refrain from passionately playing the victim role for one thing I think.

All right.  Can we agree to disagree and let this go?  You both are getting too personal.  (See rule 15.)



- Kate

I didn't intend for this conversation to go sour. I thought it was fascinating while it lasted - I was trying to make a point but if I came off as insulting then I apologize. To keep things simple, maybe there is stuff about your position that I don't 'get' - and maybe you have insights into the subject that I simply don't have. I just thought your views were awfully strange to me.

Having said that, if what I said to you was so bad why do you think it's fair to question the validity of my femininity as you've done so in a PM you sent me solely on the basis that I hold opinions that you don't.

By the way, I respected you for being passionate about what you believe [which is more than what most folks can say] and I do see where you're coming from, but after all that, yeah, I don't like you either.

The end.  Topic locked.

- Kate

PS: Reminder - report inappropriate PMs to the moderators.