At the Mid-peninsula support group last Tuesday, I picked up some pointers on passing and transition, should I choose to pursue transition. They seemed to stress that hair removal and voice practice were two of the most important factors to being taken seriously as a woman, whether while cross-dressed or while in transition.

But, they also seemed to stress the importance of avoiding an androgynous appearance. They seemed to argue that it's best to maintain a male presentation for as long as possible then switch to a female presentation when looking male is no longer feasible. The idea was that since many people seem to try to categorize a person as male or female, an androgynous presentation could be confusing or embarrassing to others. They also said that such a presentation could be "dangerous."

Thoughts?

There is an awkward point in transition where an andro look is almost unavoidable.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 30, 2010, 12:59:15 PM
There is an awkward point in transition where an andro look is almost unavoidable.

That's what I thought, which is why the advice to avoid such a look seemed odd, to me.

I'm worried about the awkward androgynous stage but hey it's like puberty. Everyone has an awkward stage haha. I think I'll be able to make it work though.

That middle point i think everyone goes through, i went to vote in May 2009, i asked a worker where my street voted, he looked me up one side and down the other then asked if i was a guy or girl, i said guy since my documentation was not changed yet, i did not want any trouble voting.

Your group is correct, you can not start soon enough on your voice, growing your hair and electrolysis, these can take a long time.

Paula

Personaly I think waiting until you can pass better would be advisable....
However I was unable to wait. I went full time within the first 4 months of HRT. The pressure of maintaining a male pressentation had gotten to be too much for me.

My hair has been growing for almost a year and a half now, and I've been practicing with my voice. Can't quite afford electro yet, but I'm hoping to start this fall.

Did you have electro or laser? I can grow a full beard in 6 weeks, and it takes a really close shave and a boatload of makeup to hide my beard shadow.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 30, 2010, 04:49:20 PM
I don't have any visible facial hair, so I haven't done either.
Despite that, I didn't pass at all to begin with - but it was clear that I was presenting as female to the world, rather than androgynous (i.e. very female clothing, makeup, jewelry, heels, hair).
It was tough, but it made me a much stronger person.

It helps that you are pretty fierce. <3 haha

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 30, 2010, 04:49:20 PM
I don't have any visible facial hair, so I haven't done either.
Despite that, I didn't pass at all to begin with - but it was clear that I was presenting as female to the world, rather than androgynous (i.e. very female clothing, makeup, jewelry, heels, hair).
It was tough, but it made me a much stronger person.

Hmm. Strong is something I'm not. This idea bears consideration.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on June 30, 2010, 12:35:06 PM
The idea was that since many people seem to try to categorize a person as male or female, an androgynous presentation could be confusing or embarrassing to others. They also said that such a presentation could be "dangerous."

Thoughts?

Whilst I can just about see the confusion angle I don't really agree about dangerous. That seems perhaps a touch melodramatic.

Some of us, who have decades since finished with transition and surgery and all that guff and are living as, and accepted unquestioningly as, women, do deliberately choose an andro look at times as a pure fashion statement. I've done it myself many times. I am not aware that it has ever put me in any danger.

I think the key thing is to do something that you feel comfortable and confident with. Something which genuinely matches your identity rather than putting on a big show. The only times when I have ever felt threatened were those when I did somehing which wasn't really me...

I think it's possible to distinguish an androgynous appearance (which might be unavoidable) from an androgynous presentation (which is avoidable, and can in fact be dangerous if the person presenting androgynously is deemed to be male-bodied).

If your body is androgynous-leaning-toward-male, but your clothes/hair/speaking voice/lack of facial hair say "woman," then you might have an androgynous appearance. But your presentation is within the binary, and as long as you've waited long enough for your body not to be loudly screaming "I'm male!" you'll be seen as within the binary. Same goes if your body leans toward female a little bit but your presentation is clearly that of a man. But mix an even vaguely-androgynous body with androgynous or clashing presentation signals, and you might as well be waving a rainbow flag. Which is fine, if you're in a place where you could safely walk down the street with a rainbow flag. I don't know if you do or not.

Well, I'm one of those that have lived in a very...how should I say...Rock-N-Roll semi-androgynous state for almost ever. I paint my nails, I have had mowhawks at times and dyed my hair in all sorts of colors.  Taking a step further, seems like a natural thing for me. Granted, I've never worn a skirt in public, BUT I have worn a male sarong out. Despite that, I am always perceived as a man...and believe it or not, as a straight male (I am TransLesbian). So, NO I don't believe it's dangerous. Can it be for you? Maybe. I say that only because maybe people aren't that use to seeing you this way. If its too much of a difference then yes, they'll be asking you questions. For me, if I decide to wear a dress, my friends would laugh for a minute and then go on with their lives. I guess it depends on how people perceive you. 
Just my two cents.
Hugs to you and cheers. May you find the path that will lead you to making your dreams into realities.
Stephie

I am applying to such idea where transition will dictate when it is time for a change of a standard. Assimilation into realm of living as woman will for me be a pleasant and shock free (well as much as it can) event. Just as diver enters water with its pointiest I shall enter society without a belly flap which inevitably spares extra dose of pain not to mention could cause serious psychological devastation. I understand that for some such putting off takes too much time and they must act immediately with sense of urgency. I believe in letting life navigate road to transition to find a path of least resistance, that is how I live my life and approach all things. As I have said before I will await such moment when someone calls me "maam may I help" and then I shall know it is time. On the other hand it may never come, dreadful as it sounds I allow for such instance and would cope with life then best I can.

I think the "dangerous" part is a bit melodramatic, like stated above.

I give a bit of an androgynous presentation because it's just how I am, I don't change for anyone.  I also am leaning towards a more androgynous appearance now for comfort reasons.  So far so good in my area, but I live on the Gulf Coast so that might have something to do with it but I'm not certain.

I can only see it being "dangerous" if I go up to the rural areas of Mississippi.

Quote from: kyril on June 30, 2010, 06:57:21 PM
I think it's possible to distinguish an androgynous appearance (which might be unavoidable) from an androgynous presentation (which is avoidable, and can in fact be dangerous if the person presenting androgynously is deemed to be male-bodied).

If your body is androgynous-leaning-toward-male, but your clothes/hair/speaking voice/lack of facial hair say "woman," then you might have an androgynous appearance. But your presentation is within the binary, and as long as you've waited long enough for your body not to be loudly screaming "I'm male!" you'll be seen as within the binary. Same goes if your body leans toward female a little bit but your presentation is clearly that of a man. But mix an even vaguely-androgynous body with androgynous or clashing presentation signals, and you might as well be waving a rainbow flag. Which is fine, if you're in a place where you could safely walk down the street with a rainbow flag. I don't know if you do or not.

These are some great points. Thanks, Kyril.

Don't over-think it. Do what's comfortable. And take care of yourself.

For me it was the opposite: I had to present as female as soon as possible, even if I had no chance of passing, because that was how I could confront me fears around transitioning. I had to know I could function in social situation when I looked and felt my worst. But that wasn't driven by any external pressures; only my internal feelings of needing to live my life honestly, i.e., as a woman.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for this sentiment:

QuoteThe idea was that since many people seem to try to categorize a person as male or female, an androgynous presentation could be confusing or embarrassing to others.

To hell with "others." If they can't figure out that I'm a human being and that therefore they should treat me like one, that's their problem. Really, it was just not an issue. And if there was any confusion, it went away quickly.

Is it dangerous? I suppose so -- but just being a woman is often dangerous, too. Sometimes life is just dangerous no matter who you are.

To be honest, I was somewhat surprised by the "others" comment. And as to danger, well, as you've pointed out it can be anywhere.

I'm smack in the middle of Mississippi, and I'm just changing things as I go. Some androgeny is going to inevitably be part of the deal.

I feel and some times present genderqueer, but I think that's only one factor contributing to my acceptance of it. Simple fact is that once I decided to transition, I started changing this, changing that....

Several times today I found myself trying to discuss technical matters with people at work, only to be interrupted in the middle with a spontaneous, "You got your ears pierced!"

My general response was along the lines of, "Yeah, I also hit Lane Bryant pretty hard while I was at it. Now, what were we talking about?"