I've been promising since my first post I was going to tell about some of my experiences that kind of clued me in to being Bi-Gendered. Well I was looking at our current topics and currently feel like I can't add too much more, but wanting to say something, I thought "Ok time to share my clue-ins". I felt it was time to start another thread, start up some different dialogue, or whatever, so here it is.

As the subject implies, these are not necessarily going to individually prove anything but as a collection, sure the big picture emerges. The hope is those who aren't really sure whether they are intergendered or bi-gendered, will find parellels and similiarities or a lack there of. A lot of these things apply to TS people as well, but the big picture is different then the pieces its composed of. Atleast I hope.

Keep in mind I was born as a male and these are in my opinion noteworthy or abnormal to be present in a male's behavior. In no particular order because I can't remember what I did earlier today, I can't possibly present in chronological order:

* Getting along equally with an older brother and younger sister when they don't get along with each other because you're able to engage them in a manner that they can appreciated.

* At an earlier age then other boys, being interested in girls, not in the attaction sense but in the trying to understand and relate to them

* Being able to pass as female to long time friends in an online game where they know its my account. Their response was "It must be his wife playing on his account" because "No guy would ever say that"


* Deciding to create a MySpace webpage for a female version of myself, and being astonished by the detail of the personality that emerged in that website that was different from my original MySpace site.

* Having one of the most respected characters on a MUD(text based roleplaying game)(significance being that the entire image of a character is based on how they interact with the other players), that character be female, and having that character's personality be extremely developed without having 0given it any thought before hand.

* Being considered by a lot of women I'm friends with as being essentially just another one of the girls because they didn't feel like I was trying to get in their pants but rather wanted to communicate with them in a manner they were comfortable with. Likewise being considered one of the guys because I was able to communicate with them in a manner where they did not feel their masculinity threatened. Being loud and obnoxious when your company is loud and obnoxious, being personal and understanding when your company is personal and understanding.

* A desire to wear clothing associated with females for the sole purpose of momentarily feeling like a woman.

* Having a strong interest in fashion for men and women and trying to understand why trends seemed to develop within each.

* Feeling a sudden change in personality in certain circumstances where it felt like a switch being thrown.

* Being patient and understanding beyond words until a certain threshold was passed after taking insurmountable amounts of crap where I would essentially switch to a rampage.

* Love to talk, essentially starting conversations with the intention of never actually stopping them.

* After having read a TS comic, asking questions of myself, I did an internal audit of what I felt and came to the conclusion that there were two persona's within me, a distinct male and distinct female. Afterwards finding the term bi-gendered seperately and it matching what I had concluded.

---

After this realization, and subsequent acceptance, I've noticed some things in the time that followed that I consider confirmation of each side being represented equally finally. I shall mention a few of those now if I may.

* A couple days ago I was sitting in the office at work and struck up a conversation with two of my coworkers, two guys, who where sitting on opposite sides of the room from me. I started the conversation at a loud enough volume that they could hear me. As the conversation continued, I subconciously lowered the volume at which I was speaking and started to talk softer gradually. They didn't notice the changes as they were occuring and neither did I, but the result was that they both slowly moved their chairs closer to me until when I had to leave, we three were huddled over by my desk talking quietly. I'm not sure if that holds any significance to anyone else, but I was controlling the conversation subconciously using whichever persona was most appropriate for the situation. I thought it was cool. I'm checking to see if that happens again.

* Strangely enough, I don't feel a desire to crossdress anymore. I concluded it was not because I had gotten bored with doing so, but that to crossdress was just my female side overcompensating for not being recognized by giving me desire to do so. Crossdressing was something that would send up flags with me, hoping I'll one day question why I am the way I am and eventually recognize her fully as being part of me. I'm not saying that will be the case for everyone since it still sticks out in my head as being a lot of fun, but I don't feel it necessary to express myself anymore.

* I'm taking care of myself a lot better now which anyone can tell you is sometimes a hard thing for a guy to just do. I contribute the change to me listening closer to what Mia wants since she has just as much a right to take care of this body.

* Overall since coming to my conclusion and recognizing what I was, I feel content all the time. A feeling of balance overwashs me like nothing is out of reach.

---

So I can't think of anymore right now, but I'm sure as I think about it little things will pop into my head. I'm interested to hear what similiar or unique experiences everyone else had that sent them down the path of discovery as an androgyne.

If anyone needs clarification on anything above, you know you just need to ask.


-Us

Hi Marq and Mia,
How did I realize that I was bi- gender?
Well first JR got tired of hold me (Jillieann) off. See we had been fighting for years, but society had been telling both of us that we were male. Face it, when I look at my body it is male, but I do have some nice curves.
Anyway I, Jillieann, came out strong and tried to crush JR make him nothing but a personality I made up to survive in this world. That work for awhile until JR work up to the fact that he was losing his family over having let me come out. He than stared fighting back and took control but I would not give up because I feared that if I did he would destroy me or at lest bury me so deep inside his mind that I would never be able to come out.  But with the help of our consoler both of us realized that we needed each other because that was the only way we could be whole.  I have began to make peace with JR and we now have stared to converse with each other and even joke a little. (Boy or Girl or whatever this sounds so weird.)
JR made me leave Susan's back in October cause he thought that there had to be away to get me under his control or kill me off so life could be normal (whatever that is) for him anyway. And at the time I started to believe in my heart that maybe I was the fake just away for him to hide from what he believed was his problems. Ouch.  Sorry JR but you do, okay we have problems.  Anyway because of my family I hurt so bad that I let him take control.
As I said early with help both of us realized that each of us is real. That was a shock and surprise for both of us. Sure was. Everything now is beginning to make senses. I have apologized (ask forgiveness) to JR and he has apologies to me. Now we are becoming friends.  And we both feel so much better.
Here an example of something that happen this evening we were doing are regular 4 mile walk around the mall and I began teasing JR about his doing more that glancing at a women's breast. I told him he was a married man. Hey you were looking to and being a little envious I might add. 

As for me, Jillieann my life emerged out of JR's shadows when I pick a name for myself.
When I took over this body was in poor shape but now thanks to my disciple we are eating better, exercising (we lost over 40 lbs) and practicing good hygiene. Face it JR you were not in the best of health.  But our body is healthier now and we past or last physical with flying success.
Jillieann it's my turn. Sure go for it brother.
Okay she dresses us because she is better at it than I am. And I think I owe her some for all the time she hid in the background.  I agree.
Her picture is the one we will continue to use and her name will come first.

I don't know if we answer the original question very well but this is good for me to write about to help me to understand us better.

I can relate to some of what out have experienced.  My wife has observed how I converse as JR around my dad and other men, but when I'm around my mom or sisters it's Jillieann who does all the talking.
At this point I'm still doing some cross dressing, I think Jillieann has missed out on allot and she looks pretty good all dressed up.  Anyway I think that for her it isn't cross-dressing even if it is for me.  I did notice she was fearful that someone would find her out. I told her that it was okay. We would hold our head high and just walk on. 

I appreciated that JR. 

Quote
*Overall since coming to my conclusion and recognizing what I was, I feel content all the time. A feeling of balance overwashs me like nothing is out of reach.*

I feel this way too.

Oh yes I love women cloths and I always wear panties you never will catch this body in those men's things. T's are fine but not men under pants. No style, no color and rough on the skin.   Oh I have decided I'd better start paying more attention to men's wear so I can help us to look good most of the time after all we have a male body.
The body doesn't look to bad if I say so myself. 
JR is blushing.

So you ask me why I think that I'm bi-gender?
Either that or I'm crazy and it's most likely both.

Hey I just notice you took over again Jillieann. Oh well you said what I want to anyway.

Just so people can understand I italicize everything that JR said.

Boy is this weird we have never concisely wrote together before. But it's fun too.

Jillieann/JR

 

Childhood no gender limits
For as long as I can remember from ages around 4 to around 10 I had always had a mixture of natural male and female in me. At these times doing so was very easy, pre puberty, although I did get beat up for being feminine several times. My hairstyle was long androgynous looking. The colors of clothes I wore were many times almost feminine, though also masculine. I had sometimes best friends that were girls (I can remember two different girl friends, and 2 different male friends mainly, at different times). I acted very much feminine and male roles at different times.

Art and Androgyny
If you look back at drawings I did when I was younger around ages 10  to 14, I drew a series of androgynous portraits, including some nudes of characters containing both breasts, feminine  and masculine features, and penis.

Gender Divide
After puberty, genderlines were really divided, and troubles really started. By the time I was in highschool , I had entirely started to try hiding my feminine side and was on my way to a time period of lowered self esteem, hidden cross dressing, and tremendous pressure from relatives and other adults socially.

Inspirations
I collected in a hidden stash a bunch of transgendered pictures from magazines. I had a large amount of ->-bleeped-<- photos that I envied. I wrote a story about a man that could turn into female and male. I read scifi stories with transgendered themes some by Robert Heinlein (cant remember the titles). I also read a few stories by Clive Barker that I really felt close to. Mainly in his book "In the flesh" there is a story of "the Madonna". "Imajica's" character Pie'oh'pah's. As well as two stories that I remember, though I forgot the names, in the "Books of Blood".

I even did a religious mission to the Philippines for two years were incidently I ran into a lot of transgendered people (Baklas).

Twice Broken
Upon returning and entering college, during the third year I broke down. I broke down big time the christmas of 1994, which happened because of an uncle I was living with, could tell that I had feminine aspects in me, and I think I was caught doing some transgender things, such as dressing, writing stories and a journal, and reading transgender related books from the local library. He told me some very direct almost threats. And he also told me how I was a failure and how he had easily done things when he was my age.

Things came again harder once I moved to my university. In the fall of 1996, I started to talk. I talked to a councilor when all the pressures had caused me to mentally break down again. I talked for the first time in my life about being transgendered to someone else besides a girlfriend. I could no longer deny how I felt.  As I wrote in another post:

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 12, 2006, 02:35:09 AM
I was just thinking back to my first time coming out to others.

I had lived a life of pushing my feelings under a carpet. I tried to make others happy by trying to present a person that fit in or at least wasnt what I thought was negative.

It came to the point were I felt extreme sadness, head aches, and almost alien to a standard male (as well as female) roles, gender (the inner soul belief), as well as the expressions (outward presentation). I found myself a few times sitting down, watching others walk by, or talk while  myself I just wanted to be or do something or somewhere else. I knew all my efforts to create this person (all those years) meant nothing, accomplished nothing, and was a total waste of time.

When you read stories, watch movies, and talk to others, gender variations isnt your most common topic talked about. In fact, It seemed to be one of the most hidden, least talked about topics on earth. Or so it seemed, living in a time when books and tv limited my total available knowledge.

So knowing I felt different and didnt know why, I had created a whole messy construct of fears, disbeliefs, lies, hurt, and confusion.

I think the day I started to decide to 'live', was the best day of my life, despite a few changes in friend and relative relationship. At least it was no longer a lie created to try 'saving' a non existent place in their lives. But with this decision, I had (and still have) to try finding the correct me: unbound by lies, no inner sadness, truth, and a feeling of being complete. And try to put into order and action my life, unwind those lies, overcome those fears, belief in the truth, balance hurt with self confidence, build new honest relationships,  and help clear my confusion.

I knew I wasnt male. I also knew I wasnt quite female. But my soul doesnt know those two genders. It only knows that truth acts and is many things. Many things that lie in either gender. Like my therapists says "You only know what you are. Dont let other things tie you down." And to "take a piece from here and there which makes you feel more complete." And "Dont be afraid to hurt others, when its your soul thats on the line".

Time to turn desires into actions. At ALL costs...

Not fitting into crossdresser nor transsexual
On the internet I knew I did not fit into the crossdresser sections, nor the transsexual sections. It was extremely hard to find a area where others felt the same as me. It wasnt until I found a small section on susans a year after I had started writing posts here, at the time called Genderqueer, that I finally found some that didnt accept the two gender pole system, and within the definitions recognize openly intergenders (along with a few other none polar types of androgynes). So I decided to just start writing often, and continuously, although the last post had been like 4 months prior and there were only 8 topics or so since a year that the section was created.

With the change of the name to Androgyne, and some additional writers, this section has become very good.

I even added a great deal of info the the Wikipedia. Some of it was already there, though I am the one that added androgyne to the "transgender" topic, and added all the susan links to androgyne, and genderqueer.

Ken/Kendra

Wow both of you put some very deep thoughts and experiences into this topic.

Jilleann,
I had never realized that the challenge of getting the two sides balanced could be such an epic battle. I'm glad that you have been able to come to peace with each other and from here on out you should see both of you growing in very positive ways together.

Quote
Here an example of something that happen this evening we were doing are regular 4 mile walk around the mall and I began teasing JR about his doing more that glancing at a women's breast. I told him he was a married man. Hey you were looking to and being a little envious I might add. 

I think its wonderful that you could be joking with each other. That shows you're getting along well. Most of the time Marq and Mia get along pretty well all things considered, and if we didn't have the same sense of humor I'm sure things would feel a lot different. I've been asked a couple times why I just for no reason start to laugh sometimes. I usually tell them that "I just remembered something funny" which is almost right, more often though one of us contributes something sarcastic to the situation that sets the other one off.

QuoteWhen I took over this body was in poor shape but now thanks to my disciple we are eating better, exercising (we lost over 40 lbs) and practicing good hygiene. Face it JR you were not in the best of health.  But our body is healthier now and we past or last physical with flying success.

I'm making leaps and bounds in this area, trying to go for the best possible path to a healthy body, good to hear you're doing well physically.

QuoteSo you ask me why I think that I'm bi-gender?
Either that or I'm crazy and it's most likely both.
....
Boy is this weird we have never concisely wrote together before. But it's fun too.

I know it does feel odd on occasion to have conversations with "yourself" but be confident that you're not crazy and that your target of conversation is a legit one. People might not understand but they don't need to. I collect as much evidence to there being two as possible in case I ever do need to explain but I don't expect there to ever be a problem and so much about humans is still unexplained scientifically.

Now I personally do not try to seperate Marq and Mia in conversations only because I can't tell the change 95% of the time. Its just the way we like to do it. We make our influence felt in each or our own ways, but its up to each "pair". I'm not sure if that word fits but I'm gonna use it.

We enjoy similiar things, though one persona is represented exclusively in a number of different circumstances. When I'm Dungeon Mastering a Dungeons and Dragons game, for the most part Marq does that. When I'm playing online RPG games like Guild Wars, usually thats completely Mia. When I'm talking with just women, usually all Mia representing. We may both have things to add but its more uneven in those circumstances.

We have seperate MySpace pages so we can express ourselves seperately and seperate email addresses. I know a lot of these things are trivial to most but when you want to be acknowledged, it means a lot.

Ken/Kendra,
Thank you for your in depth post as well. It was elequently delivered and very helpful in me understanding your progression through different experiences related to being an Androgyne. I am happy to get your perspective on this topic. Well done.

Thanks everyone else who read this and the comments inevitably to follow.

-Us

Hiya.x.

Wow..my stomach is going all tingly because this thread is really bringing some realisations to me.

I absolutely have no idea where things started for me. The trouble i had was that i was brought up from birth in an intense religious setting...almost until I was about 19 years old!!. High morals and a lot of brain washing! There is no doubt that in the early adolescent years...13. 14 etc I had strong pangs of a female heart...very sensitive to things. I was a petite child always complimented on my big blue eyes and long lashes. My uncle even once joked that I should have been born a girl. I always seemed to be a teachers favourite. A delight in the classroom.

I have 2 brothers and 3 sisters. I am the eldest. I am very close to my oldest brother due to our close age but I had a very close bond with my sisters...always comforting them ( as an older brother should...but in an older sister feel). They confide secrets to me that I believe most older brothers wouldn't ever know in a lifetime! I always seemed to find it easy to buy Xmas presents for the sisters than for my brothers...and sometimes weirdly I found it hard...as though it took more thought...like i got fussy with them...my brothers like anything!

I seem to be able to tune into the feelings of the girls in my life. I do not ever remember dressing in girls clothes as a child or young teen and never had any desire to wear makeup or play with girl toys. In fact I loved art...always have and inherited that skill from mum. Dad is a mathematician and I failed miserably at that. I never got into many fights at school and hated boy sports...rugby...football...cricket...still do.

My first proper girlfriend was not until I was 20! I was still a virgin then. I did have crushes in many girls and also women. I seemed to see the very feminine things in them. It would be their posture that 'turned me on' or their hair. The crushes I had on older women would be on elegant very feminine ones. I have never been sexually attracted to any man.

I also like to role-play and chat on the internet. I tend to create female characters and totally convince other online gamers and online chatters that I am a female. This tends to be partly a game to me...testing my ability to trick but mostly I know it is Simone...having the chance to express herself. The reason it is so convincing is because...it is a female...Simone!.x.

I cant help but relate mostly so far to Marq and Mia. I guess it just seems to be such a similar comparison. I tried a little experiment that Mia did....to talk quiet in an open office to others...it worked!!...hehe! I had those guys creeping closer to continue our chat....how funny.

Well that is enough for now but I shall eagerly read ever post to enjoy the similar experiences...

Paul/Simone.x.

Simone and Paul,

QuoteMy first proper girlfriend was not until I was 20! I was still a virgin then. I did have crushes in many girls and also women.

That sounds familiar. My first proper girlfriend was after I got out of high school, the summer before I went to college. I would have to have been 18 or so. I seemed interested in a number of women over the years and it was usually the ones that weren't interested in me that I found desirable at the time. That still doesn't make any sense to me. <shrugs>

QuoteI also like to role-play and chat on the internet. I tend to create female characters and totally convince other online gamers and online chatters that I am a female. This tends to be partly a game to me...testing my ability to trick but mostly I know it is Simone...having the chance to express herself. The reason it is so convincing is because...it is a female...Simone!.x.

I always felt it was a game too. I didn't know why that was because in some degree it felt wrong to willingly attempt to decieve people. It turns out though that I wasn't decieving anyone, just allowing a different persona I hadn't recognized yet have a chance to be expressed. I've never been disproved yet from ingame behavior, so score another point for Mia.

QuoteI cant help but relate mostly so far to Marq and Mia. I guess it just seems to be such a similar comparison. I tried a little experiment that Mia did....to talk quiet in an open office to others...it worked!!...hehe! I had those guys creeping closer to continue our chat....how funny.

I haven't had a chance to try this tactic again but I hope it works again and wasn't just a set of circumstances working out just right. I'm glad you feel you can relate to our story so much. It makes me feel like I've been able to touch someone in a postive way for posting around Susans.

-Us

Haha...

Wow, Paul/Simone, definitely some shared similarities b/w you and me!

QuoteThe trouble i had was that i was brought up from birth in an intense religious setting...almost until I was about 19 years old!!

Likewise! Born and Raised Roman Catholic. Though I still carry alot of the tradition with me, it definitely makes things a little tricky sometimes. This is probably one of the capital reasons I'm still in the closet. Very conservative upbringing.

QuoteI always seemed to be a teachers favourite. A delight in the classroom.

Uh huh. Me too! Though I have a hard time how this would be especially indicative of femininity. To me it just means you're a nice person!

QuoteI am the eldest.

Of two here, but still firstborn...

QuoteI never got into many fights at school and hated boy sports...rugby...football...cricket...still do.

Yep yep! Haha, it seems more and more growing up in this modern age, if you don't like sports as a guy something is wrong with you. Didn't even like watching then, still don't!

QuoteMy first proper girlfriend was not until I was 20! I was still a virgin then.

1st girlfriend at 18 here and still a virgin coming on 21.....

QuoteI seemed to see the very feminine things in them. It would be their posture that 'turned me on' or their hair.

Absolutely yes! Thats soooo how I see women. Like, the way they walk. How certain parts of them move and fall in certain situations. Just even the female form in itself. Or the ability to rest their hands on their hips...

Major turn on!

QuoteI have never been sexually attracted to any man.

Agreed.

QuoteI also like to role-play and chat on the internet. I tend to create female characters and totally convince other online gamers and online chatters that I am a female. This tends to be partly a game to me...testing my ability to trick but mostly I know it is Simone...having the chance to express herself.

Haha, one of my most favorite activities. I'm known on the boards I RP on for my skill to play female characters. I'm also an avid roleplayer. A pity Susan's doesn't have a forum!

QuoteI cant help but relate mostly so far to Marq and Mia. I guess it just seems to be such a similar comparison.

Hehe, and I have the same thing with you it seems. It seems we Bigenders have alot of very similar strands...

-Nessa!