Wondered how other people feel on this subject.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the popular reaction from lesbians.."you're betraying us!" when we transition. I've mentioned to some trans people that I identify less and less as trans and more as a cis dude. Why? I can't explain it without going into a long rant. But right now I'm as stealth as possible. As in, if you didn't know me pre-T when I was more open about being trans and when I was more comfortable admitting it, you're not gonna hear me say that I'm trans if I'm just meeting you now. Once my gender change papers come back and I'm legally male and my  name is changed I plan on being completely stealth. Some transpeople who I've mentioned this too had a "YOU'RE BETRAYING US" reaction. I don't see why I should put up with being seen as trans when I'm not...it's just a birth defect. Why people should be angry by correcting this birth defect and moving on with life?

Thoughts?

I completely agree with you. To me, "trans" sort of connotates an "in-between" kind of status which I want to overcome. Personally, I never identified as "trans", I'm not part of the queer community (even though I have friends who are and I agree on theoretical levels, but it's just not me), I want to be regarded as male, not trans. I feel like it has this strong notion of incompleteness. When I see trans guys years after they had surgery and started T, they have certainly arrived somewhere and there is no need to point out the journey that brought them there all the time.
Basically one might claim the whole point of being trans is that you identify as male. So you identify as male in the beginning, you identify as male in the end. Trans is just the state you're in when your outside and inside don't correspond yet.

I identify as a man first and foremost. Having to accept that by doing so makes me a transsexual wasn't so easy. It's something that I've worked on but I still don't apply being trans to my identity. It's like being asthmatic, sure it affects my life and stuff but when people are thinking of me I don't want their first thought to be asthmatic, or transsexual. Artist, musician, weird guy are all more accurate IMO.

Sometimes I find the word even, to be hard to say. I want more than anything to be a normal guy, so why make that harder by having to explain transsexualism to everyone I meet? Though I do think its important that people are aware of what it is, I would just rather have only the close people in my life know that I'm going through it so I have a support system, I don't think that's betrayal. I'm as stealth as I can be right now and plan on staying that way.

You'll never be a cissy. 

I think that the underlying metaphysical question is one of ownership, which itself reduces to primacy.  This is one that's been bothering me for a while, so I'll toss out my hypothesis in a very rough and abbreviated form...

<NERD>
On one side, some believe that consciousness precedes existence, and thus the ideas that are used to form a self-image are the components of the identity, with no underlying essential nature to the person (or, equivalently, the person is said to conform to the superimposed ideas).  In this model, you are male because transsexuals created a masculinity for you.  Since the ideas used to construct the self-image are learned, or "socially constructed," it follows naturally that something constructed socially is owned communally.  Thus, when you choose to use ideas that others believe themselves to have constructed for you, your identity becomes their property.  This leads to the belief that you have a responsibility to serve their political ends (their consciousness is the prime value), much as any tool serves its owner, and your refusal to sacrifice your personal welfare for communal welfare is considered betrayal and theft.  This position is common among lesbians, artists, and women in general, at this time.

The alternate position, that existence precedes consciousness, holds that learned ideas are used as descriptors of the underlying essential elements of your identity.  In this model, you are male, and transsexuals helped to make you aware of your inherent masculinity.  Since your identity is defined by your existence, and your existence precedes any ideas used to describe it, it follows that no one has a claim to your identity, regardless of how it is characterized.  This leads to the belief that you have a responsibility to serve your own ends (your existence is the prime value), and while you may choose to serve others, you are not required to do so at the cost of your own welfare.  This position is common among straight males, scientists, and men in general, at this time.

(The phrase "prime value" means, here, a foundational and axiomatic principle upon which a morality may be validated.  The idea is better expressed, perhaps, in the Chinese phrase "太極" or "taiji," which is the central post around which a large wooden building is constructed, or the greek word "αρχή" or "Arch" which means a source or foundation, though neither word was historically used in this manner.)
</NERD>

You are now free to ignore that bit of intellectual wankage and return to your regularly scheduled programming.

- N

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 19, 2010, 06:40:44 PM
You'll never be a cissy.

This is true. But I am a male, no need for subtitles, imo, whether its "cis" male or "trans" guy

What you do with your life is your choice. You don't "owe" anyone anything in that manner.

But I can say why I won't go stealth, and why I won't "identify" as cis anything.
I tend to associate cis with "born X in X body", thus, I can't be cis as I was "born X in Y body".
Trans, to me, just means "born X in Y body".
It doesn't make one more or less anything.

By going stealth, I would be denying the conditions of my birth and how these conditions helped shape my life. I would be pretending I'm something I'm not, not in the sense of "trans bla bla aren't real bla bla" but in the sense that I am who I am because of the life I've lived, and the life I've lived has been shaped by this factor and will continue to be affected (though to a smaller degree) by this factor for the rest of it.
I choose to be "me", who I am, and who I am is Miniar. Who I am is affected by what I am, and what I am is a man, who was born with girl bits.
So, when conversations revert to pregnancy, I'll refer to my pregnancy.
When conversations include gender issues of any kind, I'll mention the issues I've had.
etc..

I'm not gonna introduce myself as Trans, but I refuse to treat it "special".
I'm Trans. I'm also tall. I'm also Icelandic. I'm also tired. I'm also right handed. I'm also near-sighted. I'm also pansexual. I'm also married. I'm also a mom. I'm also.. I'm also... I'm also..
You get the point.

I just feel that by disassociating myself from this part of my existence, I'm making it into something I don't think it should be.
"A bigger deal."

There's nothing wrong with going deep after transition.  I was just making a pun about "cissy" sounding like "sissy."  lol

A lot of people break ties with the T community and go deep for years, even decades, only to return eventually, when they are ready.

The way I feel, personally, is that I've always been male and I am just correcting some physical defects.  I don't think the gap between genders is as huge as society wants us to believe.  I am transitioning now, and I will be male when I decide I am "done".  Many men are born with chromosomes that vary from the usual XY.  Many are born with, or suffer later with physical defects.  I don't see why they should identify as anything other than men.

When I say I consider myself male, I mean... Whether I am trans or cis is just an afterthought.  The more important distinction is that I am male, and I don't think being trans should change anything about my identity.  I do find it kind of odd as thinking of yourself as cis male specifically.  That seems to suggest denial.

For myself, personally I don't think I could ever identify as cis. I don't see it as a birth defect (at least in terms for myself). I don't think I would ever want to be stealth, just seems like too much pressure.

Different strokes for different folks.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 19, 2010, 07:11:03 PM
I was just making a pun about "cissy" sounding like "sissy."

I laughed at the pun.

but it is true, you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you.  these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs.

you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you.  these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs

QFT

From the perspective of survival and welfare, I entirely agree with your position, Leo.  No one but your spouse, children, and closest friends should ever know, or it will come to dominate your interactions and affect even more most casual relationships.  Transition should end, and be left to fade away into your distant past, clearing the way for a normal life as a man.

- N

Quote from: gilligan on July 19, 2010, 08:38:23 PM
I laughed at the pun.

but it is true, you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you.  these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs.

maybe some are not too keen on getting their nose rubbed into it all the time.

i was also a "smart" child and i also never got along with the girls in my class, i was also a wild child that ran around playing with sticks in a forest, i was a child who became a vegetarian, then a vegan, and i was a lot more things as a child which may or may not have shaped me.  Who is to determine which characteristics I'm picking out to build my identity? Most people would agree when a cis-woman says she doesn't identify as a "woman" first and foremost. A lot of people wouldn't even be too surprised if "woman" didn't come up at all when she lists her characteristics.
Being the "smart child", there was a time in life where that seemed to be my main trait. Now I'm out of school it doesn't matter so much. Being a vegan, there was a time in life when that seemed to determine my personality a lot. Now that I don't hang with other vegans every day anymore, I hardly ever mention it, and sure don't identify as "the vegan".....and so on. Life is not just a reflection of your childhood and most people trapped in their childhood are not too happy about it.

The defining factor though, is that cis men don't identify as cis men.  It's not on their minds.  Why should it be on yours? 

Neither, I think do many of us who fully transition really identify as trans anything, except on the special occasions where we want to and we choose to because we have the freedom to do that whenever we want, and it brings us together for common cause and for a sense of camaraderie.

I think part of the reason I treat this whole issue like this, with complete denial, is cause of the pain it causes me to even think of or relate to my body. My body to me is an alien. The only thing that I remotely recognize anymore is that my body is taking on masculine characteristics. I was cool with my chest but now it's getting harder to hide cause I'm getting more pecs and muscle can't be bound. Once I'm post top op I'll relate to it more, once I look more masculine from T I'll relate to it more, and once I"m post bottom op and my junk's sewed up and resembles a micro dick...I'll feel alot better. But right now my body is the enemy. I have a deep internal shame for the wrong parts being there and being helpless to change that. I don't recognize the person in the mirror cause I feel the binder, I feel the packer rubbing against the wrong body parts, I see the difference. I hate it. It's all I can do not to go ape s*** on myself sometimes and destroy the body that betrays me. I won't acknowledge that I wasn't raised male or anything. I don't even say ftm cause to me I never was the F. What I mean by identifying as a cis guy is that I want to identify as a normal man who never had this past cause honestly, I'm ashamed of it. It's not even outside influences saying this. It's the fact that I can't relate to my body at all and I'm ashamed of it. Infuriated.

Anyone relate or remotely understand? Or am I entirely deranged?

It was always  in my thought that as soon as you were completely transitioned, you essentially WERE cis-gendered. At that point there are only a few missing parts and your genes say that you are the other gender, but legally, and for the most part, physically, you are your target sex. Just my opinion.

Why shame?

Maybe that's something to work on.
Being ashamed of something that is in no way your fault, nor your responsibility is not a good way to live.

Yes, I can sympathize with it, I understand how easily I could fall into that myself, but you know what, I just won't allow the world around me to tell me I'm less of a man because of something "I" have no control over, nor will I allow myself to take responsibility for something "I" did not choose.
This body is not "right" yet, but it's what I was issued with. I'm gonna work on it until it's right.