Quote from: refugeePeople don't choose to be gay either, its just the way they are.  That's all I was saying.  So its not a sexual preference any more then its not about me preferring to be a girl.

You are right....recent studies suggest that sexual orientation is an innate condition, but let's not forget that sexual orientation refers to the sex of the erotic/love/affectionate partner a person prefers while gender is the internalized sense of being male, female, or having an ambivalent sexual status; the self-awareness of knowing to which sex one belongs.


tinkerbell

I'm lucky enough to be living more or less in stealth. Those who know are close friends, family and some colleagues who I trust, as well as my various doctors.

Someone earlier made the remark about living in stealth as being akin to exchanging one closet for another. I couldn't disagree more.

For me, there is no need to wear a 'badge' proclaiming my status and besides, sometimes when you do out yourself to people, they can't get past that whole TS thing to see the individual. In their eyes, you suddenly become something of a novelty and slightly freakish.

Posting on forums such as this represents my only current involvement with the TS 'community' as my life seems to have moved on, particularly post-op. Personally speaking, I was always keen to get out of that box labelled 'transexual' and into that box labelled 'women'...

The analogy about the gay movement was used only to point out that they got out and forced the public to recognize them for who they are.  The same could be said about many minority groups.  They go out and march, they put faces and voices in the media, they refuse to be swept aside.  And the general public was educated.  Never did I intend to imply gays and transsexuals are similar in the gender/sexual orientation department. 

Since the beginning of man people have been protesting, marching, holding rallys to get their word out.  And eventually it works, to varying degrees, but it's a move forward.  There have been many pioneers who have paved the way for us to be where we are today.  They sacrificed a lot.  Remember, there was a time when surgeons considered SRS as being unethical.  The idea of operating on a healthy human being with seemingly no problems was against their oath. 

Today, thanks in large part to the pioneers who paved the way, we not only have a good number of SRS surgeons to choose from but also FFS surgeons, all of whom want to help us become on the outside who we are on the inside.  But without representatives coming forward and educating people about the realities of being transsexual, none of this would have happened.  We'd still be living in the dark ages.

I'm not standing on a soapbox trying to rally anyone to come out of the closet, out themselves or anything in between.  I'm simply pointing out we need a voice out there.  While this website is a great help to everyone here, the average Joe may never see a single word posted here.  We need someone out there to educate the public through a media they connect to.  Right now, I'm not that person, but there are some people out there who are doing just that.  And if they had each and every one of us supporting them I'm sure they would be motivated to be more vocal or to get the word out to more people.

How many Hispanics are living in the United States?  There's a statistic that will give you a reasonable estimate.  How many African-Americans are living in the United states?  There's a statistic that will give you a reasonable estimate.  How many transgendered people are living in the United States?  It's anyone's guess.  No one really knows.  But what if the actual numbers were known?  I think the general public would be surprised.  And if the numbers were large enough (and I'm sure they are), politicians would be coming to us in droves, the media would be paying attention to us, people would listen to us.  Wouldn't that be nice?

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2006, 08:30:11 AM
The analogy about the gay movement was used only to point out that they got out and forced the public to recognize them for who they are.  The same could be said about many minority groups.  They go out and march, they put faces and voices in the media, they refuse to be swept aside.  And the general public was educated.  Never did I intend to imply gays and transsexuals are similar in the gender/sexual orientation department. 

I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

Its not that I'm trying to hide from being TS; rather, its how I got to that point, not who I am.

Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

I want that too.  I'd love to have that!  But I just don't think it's going to happen.  And I dread the image of going through the rest of my life battling my male markers.  How does my voice sound?  Do my broad shoulders give me away?  Do people notice I have no hips? 

More and more the general public is getting educated on how to spot a genetic male in female garb.  And it will become harder and harder to pass.  Unless you begin HRT at or before puberty, only someone with genetics predisposed to feminine appearance will be able to pass and therefore be accepted as a female.  For me that time is long gone and I don't have the genetics.  So education seems the only real option.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2006, 09:31:49 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

I want that too.  I'd love to have that!  But I just don't think it's going to happen.  And I dread the image of going through the rest of my life battling my male markers.  How does my voice sound?  Do my broad shoulders give me away?  Do people notice I have no hips? 

Julie

Natal females have...

Deep Voices
Broad Shoulders
No Hips

For the record, my mom has no butt.

Will I ever pass as a super model?  Probably not, though I am tall enough.     As long as I'm not looking like I'm part of the next NFL draft, I'm ok with whatever the gods of HRT, FFS and GRS give me.

I am tagging along through (in reference to the gender community-representation-numbers) this and i thought someone had tried this somewhere here, is there a way to even estimate ts/tg/is births a year based on statistics, then natural and suicidal deaths going back like 100 years for approximate age?
ummmmmm oh boy food is my specialty along with some other tantilizing things but geometric physics and math.. Not me? ugghhhh.................
It would be great if there was someone who could estimate this but what stats is there to go on??
Sorry this is off the original post line but i thought i'd say it anyway, me the bratty girl buddinski!
Julie i did not go back and check the post you're more than welcome to come over! i think i have enough vodka and dogs to keep anyone comfy!  I only had a few stiff ones to set the mood!  I do not like to get too crashed up, something to do with control?  I'm weird! 

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2006, 09:31:49 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

I want that too.  I'd love to have that!  But I just don't think it's going to happen.  And I dread the image of going through the rest of my life battling my male markers.  How does my voice sound?  Do my broad shoulders give me away?  Do people notice I have no hips? 

More and more the general public is getting educated on how to spot a genetic male in female garb.  And it will become harder and harder to pass.  Unless you begin HRT at or before puberty, only someone with genetics predisposed to feminine appearance will be able to pass and therefore be accepted as a female.  For me that time is long gone and I don't have the genetics.  So education seems the only real option.

Julie

  Julie you might as well stop here and save yourself a MAJOR headache as all your doing is beating it against a BRICK WALL. Why so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me. The very notion of which only RE-Enforces the idea that Born a Male Always a Male. Maybe its a ego thing I don't know

Byee,
  Brina

Oh man i'm gonna get dowsed for this post (please... be gentle)
welp welp..............

QuoteWhy so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me.

EXACTLY.... not my point not to anyone but myself, in another post there was a statement about the 99% cure for ts was to transition, i do not completely agree with that?
I may be one who have set my heights and expectations too high to even reach or try for but i say it a lot there is nothing surgically, genetically, hormonally that modern medicine can do to make me the real natural girl i should of been born!  Loud cry and scream !!?#?#>!>*>!
I curse this earth, i curse my birth, i curse the exact nuerological brainwave misfiring if that is what happened to have caused this to me!
I curse the moon and i curse the sun!  i live a curse!  Its like being a werewolf or something!
course in one of the silver bullet movies the girl werewolf was sort of hot in a gruesome kind of way..
That's all
I curse you all with love and kisses now!
ricki

Quote from: brina on November 18, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
  Julie you might as well stop here and save yourself a MAJOR headache as all your doing is beating it against a BRICK WALL. Why so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me. The very notion of which only RE-Enforces the idea that Born a Male Always a Male. Maybe its a ego thing I don't know

Byee,
  Brina

Brina, I've never thought HRT, FFS or SRS will turn me into a woman.  In fact I thought I'd never transition because I'd never pass.  For over 50 years I prayed something would happen and make me female.  Guess what?

When I decided to transition it was because I felt I could live with whatever society had in store for me.  Being true to myself was more important than being totally passable.  I think self acceptance played a big part in that decision.

As far as educating the public I feel it's something that needs to continue, hopefully on a larger scale.  But it can only be done by outing yourself and getting in the public light.  I often wonder if there will come a time when we are accepted for who we are.  If that time does come will we still feel the need to pass as the opposite sex?  As I see it, the whole concept of passing is based on the belief there are only two genders and no grey area in between.  If we were content to live openly in the grey area we wouldn't feel the need to pass as the opposite sex.  Only through education will the general public recognize there is a grey area.

Julie

Quote from: brina on November 18, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
Why so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me. The very notion of which only RE-Enforces the idea that Born a Male Always a Male. Maybe its a ego thing I don't know

Whoa.  This argument does not follow.  I may not be a genetic female but I'm a woman nevertheless.  Just because my path to
womanhood involved hormones, SRS, and FFS doesn't make me any less of a woman.  What?  You want me to identify as a ->-bleeped-<-,
or an ersatz woman, or some inferior derivation of female?  Nope, not gonna do it and it has nothing to do with ego.  I may not
be perfect but I'm a woman and the idea that this somehow re-enforces the idea that "born male always a male" is OFFENSIVE.

Dawn

Tink, I think you just negated my stinkin' thinkin'!  Thank you!

I have just realized I've been buying into the same type of thing that I told myself I wouldn't buy into, that in this society there is only male and female and nothing in between.  While that reference was made regarding my physical state, I also applied it to my mental state and that simply isn't true.  My inner personality says, and has always said, I am female.  But with the brainwashing I have endured I look in the mirror and say, "You're not a female!"  While that may be true physically, it's not true mentally.  If it were I'd never go through all I have and all I will to transition.  I just got all caught up in society's version of what a female is and couldn't see it.

Thank you for the wake-up call Sweetie!

BTW, I scored a 118 on the passing test which translates to passing with some of the people some of the time.  I guess I need to study more. 

Julie

QuoteI often wonder if there will come a time when we are accepted for who we are.  If that time does come will we still feel the need to pass as the opposite sex?  As I see it, the whole concept of passing is based on the belief there are only two genders and no grey area in between.  If we were content to live openly in the grey area we wouldn't feel the need to pass as the opposite sex.  Only through education will the general public recognize there is a grey area.

Even in a perfect world with total acceptance of all expressions of gender, there will be some of us who who need to transition fully and pass as the opposite gender. I think it's different for everyone. For me, that gray area between genders is where I live, it's who I truly am.

I believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche, that said, it's a personal choice for each person to make. As much as I'd like to be, I'm not out to everyone in my daily life because it can also be dangerous and even life threatening to live completely openly, especially if your presentation is ambiguous or in between.

zythyra

Hiee,

  My earlier post was meant to Imply that we all accept ourselves as being mentally/emotionally FEMALE with incongruant physical bodies. The point is that no matter what we do to our bodies not one M->F will EVER be genetically Female plain and simple. We are simply a different type of Female ie
Julies's referal to the gray area. Until society at large see's us as being FEMALE albeit slightly different then a genetic female then I seriously doubt they will EVER be Understanding and Accepting of us as being 'REAL' woman. That being said then all that does is perpetuate the DEEP STEALTH menality. Until the NORM of transitoning becomes pre-puberecent then things will not change and even then while one may pass much easier that dark cloud will hang over oneself. Personally I'd much rather live in an accepting society of what I am rather then having to hide natures screw up.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: brina on November 19, 2006, 01:42:33 PM
Hiee,

  My earlier post was meant to Imply that we all accept ourselves as being mentally/emotionally FEMALE with incongruant physical bodies. The point is that no matter what we do to our bodies not one M->F will EVER be genetically Female plain and simple. We are simply a different type of Female ie
Julies's referal to the gray area. Until society at large see's us as being FEMALE albeit slightly different then a genetic female then I seriously doubt they will EVER be Understanding and Accepting of us as being 'REAL' woman. That being said then all that does is perpetuate the DEEP STEALTH menality. Until the NORM of transitoning becomes pre-puberecent then things will not change and even then while one may pass much easier that dark cloud will hang over oneself. Personally I'd much rather live in an accepting society of what I am rather then having to hide natures screw up.

I disagree with the label "different type of female".  Female is female, for better or worse when we're treated as female in our every day lives, whether its disrimination or by some one who was raised with manners, they're not seeing us as a "different type of female", just female.

As for pre-pubescent transition, I think its a mine field we'll never successfully naviagte.  Countless studies on children with cross gender behavior have shown that the majority of them do NOT grow up to be TS.  In fact, most of them abandon their cross gender behavior as adults or even later on in child hood.

I'm all in support of letting a child express themselves as they feel appropriate and its been nice to see more and more of society supporting children with crossgender behaviors, presentations.  Here is my fear, imagine a boy is allowed to enroll in first grade as a girl, its clear to everyone, including himself that that is his true sense of who he is.  Fast forward a couple years, what do we do when that same girl has been living for 5 years as a girl, has been socialized that way and is known only that way and suddenly decides that she's interested in being a boy again.  How does the child actually transition BACK to being a boy?  Even worse, what if her parents were successful in getting their child GRS already.  Then what?

I agree the system is imperfect and we're still learning, but gender identity is so fluid in childhood that I'm not sure its worth the risk to allow full transition any earlier then it is currently - 16 appears to be the minimum age for GRS.

Hiee Refugee,

  Like it or not no matter what you do your chormosones will not be altered. In that respect we ARE slightly different and I personally believe that in order to be fully accepted that will have to be acknowledged. If I'm not mistaken then puberty generally starts at about the begining of the teen years or slightly before hand. Basically at the time that the hormonal changes begin to take place is the idea I was attempting to get accross. For M->F's then the blocking of testosterone at least until the age of concensus is reached where the individual can decide for themselves whether or not they wish to transition and begin taking female hormones and continue blocking T or even having the organs responsible for its primary production removed.

Byee,
  Brina

conscienscious note.. Julie and any others that do.. do not stop praying  or asking.. Who knows?  Miracles happen every day right?
I still do!  Even if the boss man will not give me what i want
Peace and love!
Ricki

Lets stay on topic.

Steph

Quote from: zythyra on November 19, 2006, 09:45:16 AM

QuoteI believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche

How so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Am I detecting a certain level of inverse snobbery?

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 19, 2006, 10:41:23 PM

Quote from: zythyra on November 19, 2006, 09:45:16 AM

QuoteI believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche

How so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Personally, living in stealth hasn't been damaging for me in any way either.  I have been doing it for many years now and successfully so BTW.   Actually, it wasn't until I came in contact with the TG community again that someone reminded me that I'd not been born female, and that, I really found to be damaging to my psyche.


tinkerbell