Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 19, 2006, 10:52:27 PM

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 19, 2006, 10:41:23 PM

Quote from: zythyra on November 19, 2006, 09:45:16 AM

QuoteI believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche

How so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Personally, living in stealth hasn't been damaging for me in any way either.  I have been doing do it for many years now and successfully so BTW.   Actually, it wasn't until I came in contact with the TG community again that someone reminded me that I'd not been born female, and that, I really found to be damaging to my psyche.


tinkerbell

Well, it can give you a headache, like when being with GGs and the conversation turns to growing up, having your first period, things like that, how do you improv that? I was talking to a GG about boyfriends and sex (this younger woman had metioned she had gone out with this guy a dozen times without doing it) I mentioned well, you do have to worry about geting pregnant...unlike myself...uh, since I am post-menopausal!!!

I guess the later one transitions the harder it is to re-invent your old life. I mean, in my case, the last real LTR I was in was with my wife. I guess I could just call her my-ex, which I do, come to think of it.

But I am in real trouble if we start talking about high school since I went to an all-boys school.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 19, 2006, 11:42:46 PM
Well, it can give you a headache, like when being with GGs and the conversation turns to growing up, having your first period, things like that, how do you improv that?

Heh-heh. I'm 43 years old. I have conversations with my female friends about work, colleagues and friends, the industry I work in, art, music, etc... things aren't a pyjama party any more.

I honestly can't recall a time when conversations like that ever happened. Now when the conversation turns to having children, that's a different matter and is usually batted away by saying I can't have children. That usually shuts people up.

 I think it's hard to argue that if everyone of us, every person with a gender identity issue, was out to everyone they knew, openly lived life in the way that feels most natural, that society would accept us more readily.  That discrimination against us would decrease dramatically.  That the real numbers, how many of us there really are, would get people to sit up and take notice.  That we'd even have some clout with politicians.  Overall, this would help each and every one of us.  It's happened with other minorities again and again.  And yes, we are a minority.

This subject would be moot:

  * If each and every one of us could physically transition and undetectably integrate into society.
  * If each and every one of us could have our vital records permanently changed to a point where even the deepest search wouldn't uncover our past.
  * If those who knew us before transition would forever see us as our true selves and forget we were ever born in a different gender. 

But that is a dream and will never happen.

The percentage of MTF TSs who can pass completely is minuscule.  Last night I sat in a room with almost 20 transsexuals.  In that group maybe one was totally passable.  Many would get clocked in a minute.  They will never enjoy a life free of discrimination and prejudice unless society changes its attitude towards us.  We can't change our bodies but we can change society's thinking.

At a personal level coming out can be devastating.  At a personal level being able to live in stealth can be a dream come true and make your life so much easier.  I've experienced much of the former.  I hope to be able to choose the latter someday.  That's a dream almost all of us share.  But it's still a dream and for many will always be one.

If we are ever to be recognized, if we ever expect to gain acceptance, if we ever want to be treated with dignity, society has to know how many of us there really are.  Society has to know who we really are.  Society has to know drag queens, sexual orientation or deviant behavior do not describe us.  Society has to know we are average everyday people who just want to live a life of peace and happiness.  And if you open your minds and get to know us, you may have found a great friend in life.  They will never know any of this if we don't educate them.  They will never want to be educated if they think there's not enough of us to bother with, if they think they can ignore us.  They will never know how many of us there are if we live in fear or shame. 

And as long as we fear discovery, we will be sending society the message they are right, there really is something wrong with us.

Julie

PS:  I want to reiterate, my views on this are not intended to get those living in stealth to come out.  I'm not even saying I can be the one to stand before a crowd and rally the masses and get them to listen.  But ideas that took hold and changed society started small and grew, and by growing, gained acceptance.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 20, 2006, 07:06:29 AM
 
The percentage of MTF TSs who can pass completely is minuscule.  Last night I sat in a room with almost 20 transsexuals.  In that group maybe one was totally passable.  Many would get clocked in a minute.  They will never enjoy a life free of discrimination and prejudice unless society changes its attitude towards us.  We can't change our bodies but we can change society's thinking.

In my experiences, often times large groups of TSs in the same room only exist at support group meetings and they're typically older.  I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, but I think your logic is flawed.  Older TSs don't pass as well, though FFS can work miracles, and most passing TSs, in my experience, don't go to support group meetings.

QuoteHow so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Am I detecting a certain level of inverse snobbery?

Stormy Weather, I'm sorry if my my comment came off as snobby, not at all meant in that way. Later in the day after I posted, I thought that what I should've said was that I believe that living in stealth was/is very damaging to MY psyche. I'm really only speaking for myself, not anyone else... For me, the more openly I can live my life and not feel as though I am hiding something, the better. And yes, the years of  depression have also been very damaging to the spirit.

zythyra

Though the topic is stealth, I do see a recurring theme that seems to be to be a call for gender activism.  I don't intend to be a gender activist, to the extent that I can pass I intend to.  I intend to live my life as who I am, a woman - no more, no less.  I also accept the fact that I can't completely hide from my upbringing, nor would I want to.  The loss of family and friends would be too great to bear.

I don't intend to wear a sign proclaiming my past either.

Personally, I practice "don't ask, don't tell" stealth.  Basically that means if somebody reads me then they do.  If they ask me about it, I don't show shame, nor do I deny it.  I make little effort to conceal my past and typically talk freely about it in gender-neutral terms.  I don't hide my baby pictures or stuff with my old name on it around the house.  However, I don't make it a point to be a badge-wearing out and proud transsexual who refuses to proclaim she is a woman.  To me, that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Melissa

Quote from: Refugee on November 20, 2006, 08:35:48 AM
In my experiences, often times large groups of TSs in the same room only exist at support group meetings and they're typically older.  I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, but I think your logic is flawed.  Older TSs don't pass as well, though FFS can work miracles, and most passing TSs, in my experience, don't go to support group meetings.

I have been to meetings with TSs ranging in age from their early 30s to early 60s.  But you are right, passable TSs don't attend meetings like that because they don't have to deal with the prejudice non-passable TSs have to.  But if they became active and open about their transsexualism society would see we aren't all tall linebackers with big hands, deep voices and big feet.  That would help the image immensely.

Quote from: Refugee on November 20, 2006, 09:07:26 AM
Though the topic is stealth, I do see a recurring theme that seems to be to be a call for gender activism. 

Actually, the topic is about stealth hurting us or not.  By that I meant if we live in such a way as to hide the fact we are trans, does that hurt the image, level of acceptance and/or understanding of transsexuals and who we really are?  If it does then activism would be a logical avenue to pursue.

Julie

Quote from: Melissa on November 20, 2006, 12:17:04 PM
Personally, I practice "don't ask, don't tell" stealth.  Basically that means if somebody reads me then they do.  If they ask me about it, I don't show shame, nor do I deny it.  I make little effort to conceal my past and typically talk freely about it in gender-neutral terms.  I don't hide my baby pictures or stuff with my old name on it around the house.  However, I don't make it a point to be a badge-wearing out and proud transsexual who refuses to proclaim she is a woman.  To me, that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Melissa

I concur except that to some, it's none of their business i.e. someone at work you hardly know. I can't imagine anyone would ask but if they did, I would probably look at them like they are crazy and ask if they are trans.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 20, 2006, 12:58:28 PM
I concur except that to some, it's none of their business i.e. someone at work you hardly know. I can't imagine anyone would ask but if they did, I would probably look at them like they are crazy and ask if they are trans.

That works.  You don't have to say you are, but the trick is to avoid lying.  For instance, I have this one friend who has no idea about my past.  I have talked about my divorce with her and she is certain I am divorcing a guy.  I just never bothered to correct her, nor do I perpetuate it by ever referring to my ex as a male.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 20, 2006, 12:37:04 PM

I have been to meetings with TSs ranging in age from their early 30s to early 60s.  But you are right, passable TSs don't attend meetings like that because they don't have to deal with the prejudice non-passable TSs have to.  But if they became active and open about their transsexualism society would see we aren't all tall linebackers with big hands, deep voices and big feet.  That would help the image immensely.

You can't do anything about your feet or hands, but I don't think the average person looks at someone and thinks "Oh big hands/feet, yep its a trannie"  without something else, like a deep voice, suggesting it in the first place.

Friends of my mom have deep voices, large feet/hands and you could argue are built like linebackers.  IMHO, too many people fixate on unfixable things, like hands/feet, rather then what they can fix, like voice, mannerisms, etc, when they don't pass.  Why?  I don't know.

What surprises me is that even being 6'3" in heels, I still get nothing but ma'am, even from the little Asian women. (and that wasn't the case before FFS) Much of it is confidence though. I know I look like a large female. It is unquestionable.

On the subject of being ma'amed, I came to a realization a while ago.  I rarely got ma'amed, yet I seemed to pass with no problem.  The reason for this is women my age don't like to be addressed as "ma'am".  It makes them feel old.  I also didn't get "miss"ed that often either.  I mean if I look at my face, placing an age on it is kind of hard to do since I tend to look a bit different than the typical woman.  Therefore out of courtesy storeclerks would not say either "miss" or "ma'am" since I seemed a bit too old for miss and a bit too young for ma'am.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 20, 2006, 07:06:29 AM
  

we will be sending society the message they are right, there really is something wrong with us.

Julie

By not being out, I will be enforcing the fact that there is nothing wrong with me, for I view transsexualism as an illness, a birth defect if you will,  which I've had it corrected.  Society does not need to know about my medical history or the surgeries I have had to correct my body since these experiences are mine alone and no one else's business.  Just my thoughts.


tinkerbell

Tink, when that little girl clocked you and asked if you were a boy, your response was absolutely beautiful.  She walked away with a life lesson she may never forget.  It's okay to be born a boy then blossom into a girl. 

You came out.  You taught someone it's okay to be different.  You gave a life lesson that may carry on forever.  You should be proud of that.

Julie

Hiee,

I was writting something else but have decided to delete it and start again so not to ruffle any feathers. I am a skilled blue collar worker. From my vantage point Transexuals are a terribly divided and disorganized lot. As long as we remain as such then soceity will be able to walk on us and treat us with utter disdain. I am a Transwoman or if you prefer a woman with a transexual past. I am deeply saddened by the fact that most average people would see me as a DQ or CD or worse some type of sexual deviant rather than as a nuturing woman. I think we need to develope or OWN group one that is seperate from the Gays/Lesbians as well as the Transgender. We would likely be well served by maintaining an association with the above groups, BUT, we should speak for OURSELVES.
In so doing over time society will learn what we are and I believe come to accept us fully as woman albeit not Genetic. It will take courage as organized events will have to take place so that we may gain our moments in the media spotlight in order to be heard. There will always be those who say NAY to this type of thinking as their lives at the moment are ok, but when the tables turn they will only so gladly take what has been so heroically fought for. If sisterhood is not about looking out for your kin then what is it about? Just my thoughts on the issue.

Byee,
  Brina

Like some of you, I don't see a parallel between gays coming out and TS's coming out.  The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that we go through a PHYSICAL CHANGE and gays don't have to.  When we come out, people tend to look at our faces and bodies more critically.  When you find out someone is gay, do you stare at their bodies?  Of course not.  In the M2F world, medical technology has gotten us close but it's not perfection.  Despite spending big bucks with facial reconstruction guys like Dr. Osterhaut, a lot of us STILL carry physical baggage from our male pasts be it a lower voice, broader shoulders, a rounder middle, a lack of large hips, or stereotypically female hair atop our heads.  For years, as an example, I wore wigs.  I hated it - it was very uncomfortable for me.  And here I was transitioning from male to female to FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE.  What irony!  I finally got some hair transplants.  I'll, unfortunately, never have a stereotypical women's hair but, as I get older, I notice that some genetic women are gradually losing their hair, and, in their world, I'm blending in!

If being "out" is very important, what can be done for the many (perhaps a majority) of the TS's who cannot afford expensive doctors?  If they, for the most part, pass, why suggest that they traumatize their lives and "come out" for the sake of the group?  There IS no perfect solution.  The best that can be done, as has been suggested, is to leave coming out to those who feel comfortable with that.  As a post op, I will probably always be a "Susaner" for our cause still has a place in my heart.  I will help when I can and, in my personal life, will come out only to those I choose.  Yes, people can discover my past but, as Doris Day said, "what will be, will be."

Teri Anne

Quote from: brina on November 20, 2006, 08:50:13 PM

In so doing over time society will learn what we are and I believe come to accept us fully as woman albeit not Genetic.

I think the hair we're splitting is about self-acceptance.  I accept myself as a woman and intend to live my life in the same regard all women live their lives in.  That I had to undergo considerable time, energy and money to reach the same point most women get to as a birthright is water under the bridge and is only between me and the husband I have to explain the reasons why I can't bear children to.

If you want to bear the torch, demand that insurance companies cover the multiple doctor's visits and medical procedures no differently then any other recognized birth defect.  Fight to make transition more accesible to people of lesser means.  No one should have to wait until they can afford it to "be" the gender they are.

Quote from: Refugee on November 20, 2006, 08:35:48 AM
...and most passing TSs, in my experience, don't go to support group meetings.

Exactly.

Quote from: brina on November 20, 2006, 08:50:13 PM
Hiee,

I was writting something else but have decided to delete it and start again so not to ruffle any feathers. I am a skilled blue collar worker. From my vantage point Transexuals are a terribly divided and disorganized lot. As long as we remain as such then soceity will be able to walk on us and treat us with utter disdain. I am a Transwoman or if you prefer a woman with a transexual past. I am deeply saddened by the fact that most average people would see me as a DQ or CD or worse some type of sexual deviant rather than as a nuturing woman. I think we need to develope or OWN group one that is seperate from the Gays/Lesbians as well as the Transgender. We would likely be well served by maintaining an association with the above groups, BUT, we should speak for OURSELVES.
In so doing over time society will learn what we are and I believe come to accept us fully as woman albeit not Genetic. It will take courage as organized events will have to take place so that we may gain our moments in the media spotlight in order to be heard. There will always be those who say NAY to this type of thinking as their lives at the moment are ok, but when the tables turn they will only so gladly take what has been so heroically fought for. If sisterhood is not about looking out for your kin then what is it about? Just my thoughts on the issue.

Byee,
  Brina

Go for it hon, we need folks with the courage of their convictions, however I respectfully disagree.  The very nature of transsexuals is our biggest weakness and our ultimate down fall.  It matters not what other people think, and I find myself agreeing with Teri Anne

QuoteIf they, for the most part, pass, why suggest that they traumatize their lives and "come out" for the sake of the group?  There IS no perfect solution.  The best that can be done, as has been suggested, is to leave coming out to those who feel comfortable with that.

Some say that we "Owe it to the community that supported us to give back after we transition" and to be honest I think that most TS do that, and one need only to look at sites such as Susan's to see that in action.  One should remember that some are not in a position to do more than that.  For example I live in a fairly large city 120,000+ and as far as I know I am the only TS in the city.  Notice I said as far as I know...  I'm not about to place ads in newspapers etc. to see if there are other TS out there who would like to get together and form a group to spearhead an action plan for TS rights.  It would be naive of me to think that I was the only TS person in this city, as there are undoubtedly others, who like me are living their lives as normally as possible, functioning as normally as one could expect.  It would be interesting to see what your plan is as far as the following is concerned

QuoteIt will take courage as organized events will have to take place so that we may gain our moments in the media spotlight in order to be heard.

.

Don't get me wrong I fully support anyone who wants to lead our cause and fight for our rights, I've been doing that here in Kingston, and in Ontario for many years now, I just prefer to do it from behind closed doors.

Steph