And, I don't mean from cisgender folks. I mean from those who also under the "transgender" umbrella.

So, my fellow unicorns here in Nero's Forest:

1. How do you deal with those who denigrate your existence and invalidate your indentity by insisting there are only 2 genders, that there is nothing in between, no grey area?

2. How do you deal with those who say that your very non-binary existence contributes to stereotypes and makes life harder for the True Trannsexuals?

Personally, I find this exhausting. I feel like a pinata, attacked by cisgender and transgender folk alike.

I ignore the tossers.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 27, 2010, 12:46:44 PM
I ignore the tossers.

I try, but damn it's tough.

I don't need the world to love me. But, a little less hate would be nice.

As the spouse of an androgyne I find I get very upset when I hear binary only talk.
I know from close and personal experiance that some people can not and do not fit into the gender binary. My wife being one of them.
I do not know how to deal with dumbass attitudes. Maybe the binary thinking transfolks are harming the genderqueer/androgynes and making their lives more dificult....? hmmmm
Way to many transfolks seem to have bought deep into the binary and anyone who doesnt fit into their rigid definitions of male and female is somehow making their life more dificult. I call shenanigans! So what my mate makes you and others uncomfortable? They just need to suck it up because no one has any right to lay claim to any part of anyone elses life.

For me, the androgyne journey is one of self-acceptance and everything else is just cucumber. To denigrate the existence of someone standing in front of them is pure nonsense, and who is contributing to gender stereotypes more; the person who denies the gender boundary or the person who insists on it?

Thanks, folks.

The strange part is that in this most recent episode (on another TG message board), I tried to take the high road at the outset. I kept my messages devoid of condescension and tried to be as clinical as possible. The screed that was the other poster's reply both took me by surprise, and didn't take me by surprise.

I'd like to continue the conversation, but she ended her message with "I will not degrade myself to another response to you."

I don't need to have the last word. But, it saddens me to see the dialog so abruptly ended.

Well, what can I do? I can't change the minds of others. I'd like to say, "I would rather that people get to know me before they hate me. Don't hate me because of what I am. Hate me because you've gotten to know who I am."

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 27, 2010, 01:27:03 PM
Don't hate me because of what I am. Hate me because you've gotten to know who I am."

Okay, I shall 

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 27, 2010, 01:34:25 PM
Okay, I shall 

Great! Thanks Pica!

It might be the same phenomenon that bisexuals get. Bis and non-binarys always seem on the fence and not as 'legitimate' as those on either side. For some reason this is threatening to some binarys and monosexuals (is that a word?  )

Yeah, I get the bisexual hatred too.

Oh, yeah, and I'm a theist. But being a polytheist means that there are those theists who'll hate me too.

And according to the book Bisexuality and the Eroticism of Everyday Life by Marjorie Garber, "monosexual" is indeed a word. 

IF gender is binary with no grey area, how do you explain hermaphroditic animals and intersex people? Surely if noticeably physical sex can be in a grey area so can the none noticeable parts of a person.

Quote from: LordKAT on July 27, 2010, 02:44:40 PM
IF gender is binary with no grey area, how do you explain hermaphroditic animals and intersex people? Surely if noticeably physical sex can be in a grey area so can the none noticeable parts of a person.

Very well said.

I think bigoted transsexuals should be ashamed of themselves. Why would you invalidate someone the same way others invalidate you. Yes, being androgyne and transsexual are not the same thing. BUT, a transsexual can be an androgyne or non gender conforming as well. It is an endless spectrum.

Quote from: Kyle XD on July 27, 2010, 03:50:19 PM
I think bigoted transsexuals should be ashamed of themselves. Why would you invalidate someone the same way others invalidate you. Yes, being androgyne and transsexual are not the same thing. BUT, a transsexual can be an androgyne or non gender conforming as well. It is an endless spectrum.

At the Pacific Coast Living Conference earlier this month in South San Francisco, I spent most of the day in a workshop called "The Gender Universe." It was presented by an MFT by the name of Steven Braveman (who identifies and gender-fluid, essentially) and his intern Nickolas McDaniels, a transman. They used the metaphor of the "spectrum" to describe gender identity. If I lived in Monterey County, I'd probably join their support group.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 27, 2010, 04:10:13 PM
At the Pacific Coast Living Conference earlier this month in South San Francisco, I spent most of the day in a workshop called "The Gender Universe." It was presented by an MFT by the name of Steven Braveman (who identifies and gender-fluid, essentially) and his intern Nickolas McDaniels, a transman. They used the metaphor of the "spectrum" to describe gender identity. If I lived in Monterey County, I'd probably join their support group.

I went to a great support group in New York City. At the Center they have two gender groups, one for the mtf spectrum and one for the ftm spectrum. There were gendequeer, transsexuals and others and it was pretty comfortable. I like the image of a spectrum, kind of like an artists color wheel.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 27, 2010, 12:44:48 PM
1. How do you deal with those who denigrate your existence and invalidate your indentity by insisting there are only 2 genders, that there is nothing in between, no grey area?

First I laugh at them. Then I call them an idiot. Then I give them some argumentation in the form of middleschool understanding. Then I take my icepick from my freezer and murder them in their sleep.

Ok, ok, seriously? I laugh at them and then I bleat at them.

Quote
2. How do you deal with those who say that your very non-binary existence contributes to stereotypes and makes life harder for the True Trannsexuals?

My response would be: "I know right?".. And then walk off with a smile. No really, I mean: if someone has taken the time to wrap their heads around such a statement then do you have any idea how long a (very likely useless) discussion would take?.. I'd rather use my time going forward and different angles.

edit yeah yeah I know I fail at pacifism. Fiery suits me.

Is it possible to avoid those types of conversations? (that's what I would do. out of sight (ears), out of mind) or are other people starting the fights with you. If so don't participate, walk away, tell them you don't want to discuss it because it's not going to accomplish anything good. Don't go around reading blogs that you know will upset you. If it's just the thought that there are people out there who share those opinions, I guess it's a little harder to get over.

Personally, I try not to demonize people (though I often can't help myself). In this case, I'm sure you can understand where these people are coming from. Even if it's not right, and even if their rejection of androgyny is selfish or whatever you want to call it, they're only people, and we can't expect them to completely understand things that they are unfamiliar with, or to accept things that for one reason or another they believe are hurting them/increasing the likelihood that others will reject them. Maybe they're drawing conclusions from information that isn't right, or from a couple examples that don't represent the group that they are associated with, or maybe neither is the case.

It's not fair, and I wish that people were more altruistic, but they are what they are, and I have trouble blaming them for it. Plus, people have a natural tendency to separate things based on differences, because it helps them get a grip on what things are and what they mean. and when you are so used to gender separating, boy toys, girl toys, boy clothes, girls clothes, and so on with colors bathrooms etc etc, the concept of a person who identifies as neither gender is sort of abstract. It's not gonna be easy for everyone to understand. I know it's impossible to be impartial, but try as hard as you can to understand why they feel/behave the way they do. If you shared all their experiences, and weren't androgynous, do you think you would be that much better than them. maybe maybe not.
I know the whole "walk in their shoes" thing is cliché, but if you really give it a chance, it might be comforting. It doesn't make them right, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to change the way people feel, and to help them feel comfortable with things they aren't familiar with, but sometimes to keep your sanity you have to find a way to ignore hatred, and to not hate them back.

There are 2 groups In my city that I have been part of one for M2F cross dressers and one for M2F Transexuals the TS group are very rigid in there Idea of the term transgender as that is the term that they use for themselves (but exclude anyone that does't fit The "Normal" TS box) being that I was always nice and respectful toward them.  They were nice when I arrived and when I left but I was always actively excluded from discussions when at one meeting one of the Ladies who runs the support group started shouting hurtful terms and miss-information that brought me close to tears.  I replied by sending an email to the hurtful lady explaining that there is a lot more to transgender then just M2F and told her that if she wanted to know about me then Ask - don't assume she toned down a bit for a while then one meeting afew of the older ladies in the group the above lady included were having a rather loud conversation about how stupid and how f'ed in the head gender queer people are, with almost no truth to what was being said. that afternoon I checked facebook  and the lady who who had been giving me grief over & over mostly in subtle ways but also those 2 times had changed her status how good it was to have such great diversity in the group I commented about her hurtful comments and haven't been back since
I have found a new group where I am acceped as me but it takes me 2 hours to get there.  at the cross dresser group I don't really fit in and most people assume I'm a very part time crossdresser insted of a full time gender diverse person and I sometimes get asked when I'm going to take off the beard and get nasty looks when when I say that the beard is not going but there are mostly accepting of me if they think I am a cross dresser or a TS. as that is who the group if for.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 27, 2010, 12:44:48 PM1. How do you deal with those who denigrate your existence and invalidate your indentity by insisting there are only 2 genders, that there is nothing in between, no grey area?

Sympathy vibes. I'm not andro, but I might smile broadly, say something deliberately irritating, and walk away. Then dream of homicide. I don't know what to say. Try these on for size:
Yes, you're absolutely right! I will now cease to exist! Poof!
Yes, you're absolutely right! I must have multiple personality syndrome!
Then how do you explain me?
That's all right, I don't believe in you, either.
Wow, I thought all the...er, persons...like you went extinct long ago.
Have you discussed these irrational insecurities with your therapist?

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 27, 2010, 12:44:48 PM2. How do you deal with those who say that your very non-binary existence contributes to stereotypes...

Uhh...WTF do they mean by this?

Lol Arch... Seems like we'd pretty much respond the same way. Awesome.