I've got a bit of a problem. I've been living as male without hormones and as much as possible for over 3 years, now. I started questioning my identity around 6 years ago. I was in therapy for about 3 or 4 months about all things gender related around 2 years ago. Even with all of this time living as a guy, I'm still unsure. I don't know if I am a guy or if I'm androgynous/genderqueer. I remember while I was in therapy telling my therapist that I didn't know if what I identified/felt like was masculine or male, which turned into a big brain mess for me (complicated). I've been off and on about trying to figure out if I need/want T. Even with an identity that isn't completely male can somebody go on hormones? Would a therapist be likely to write "the letter" for somebody without a binary identity?

And most of all, is anybody else in a similar situation?

Hello Nygeel,

it is very good that you listen to yourself and don't head the fast, straightforward way as long as you are not sure it is the right way for you to go.

I am between genderqueer and male (more on the male side) and it was hard for me to figure out whether to transition or not, as moreover I had almost no passing before T no matter what I tried so I could not experiment the social side of it. The important questions I think are less whether you are 100% male inside rather than say 80 or 90, but rather:

Would you feel more comfortable with a more male body?
Would/Do you feel more comfortable with being seen and treated as a guy in society?
How much do you suffer from your current state (physical/society)?
How do you want to live?

And of course, figure out for yourself how much of your discomfort has to do with gender dysphoria and how much has other reasons (like, say, different role expectations and status of females in society). Plus, you need not go the whole way, there are options in-between. I thought before that being in-between means you will never find a partner, but found out it's not true (there are enough bi people for whom it's okay. Plus some straight or gay/lesbian people get along with it too).

I will never be 100% male inside, but feel much more comfortable now. This does not mean that it will be the same for you, though.

Now about getting "the letter", I don't know if it works if you are blankly honest. I did not tell my therapist the "whole truth" as I did not want to risk getting denied what I needed. My therapist was very old school and he was the only one in the region. I was on the verge of suicide then because of the gender stuff and it got a lot better for me after getting on T.

(Disclaimer: This reply is likely to be totally incoherent because it's almost 4am here)

I personally identify as both. I'm a guy, I suppose, but definitely a genderqueer guy. I'm comfortable being recognized and reffered to as eitehr male or androgynous (or better yet, a combination thereof), and I feel like I would be more at home in a male body... or a more male-ish body, at least. But at the same time, my gender feels a lot more fluid than plain ol' "All guy, all the time." I would feel weird sacrificing the fluidity of my gender just to be accepted as a guy.

That being said, I originally identified entirely as genderqueer, and decided I wanted to take T quite a while before I shifted towards "genderqueer guy" instead of just genderqueer. I've encountered quite a few articles that mention genderqueer/androgynous/non-binary people taking hormones, as well as met a few people here at Susan's who identify as non-binary genders and are taking hormones. So that's totally a possibility.

To add to that: The counselor I'm seeing now knows about the genderqueer part of my identity and seems to have no qualms about setting me up on a track leading in the direction of hormones.

...of course, that doesn't necesarily mean you have to identify as both, nor does it mean that identifying as both would manifest the same for you as it does for me. But it is possible to identify as both and to get hormones if you are of a non-binary gender. 83

From what I've read here, it might be possible to get T with "informed consent." But, things like this seem to be done on a case-by-case basis. HRT is not a topic I'm very knowledgeable about. Perhaps others here can answer your question about hormones. However, I think I can answer your gender identity question.

I'm biologically male, and I identify at genderfluid or non-binary gender variant. In the categories of this site, I'm in the Androgyne group.

I've never been too interested in what are usually considered to be masculine or manly activities. I'm not wholly comfortable in my male body. But, I don't think a female body would be quite right either. There are days when I feel femme and days when I feel masculine and days when I don't feel like either.

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 02, 2010, 02:09:50 AM
Would you feel more comfortable with a more male body?

I don't know since I haven't been able to fully live as a guy. I think if I passed all the time I would be able to figure it out.

QuoteWould/Do you feel more comfortable with being seen and treated as a guy in society?

Again, I don't know. I don't think I can know for sure without the experience. There are some parts of my life that I won't be able to do as much if I were seen as male, namely working with kids.

QuoteHow much do you suffer from your current state (physical/society)?

I bind my chest and I'm self conscious about it. I can tolerate my current situation.

QuoteHow do you want to live?

I don't know. The question is too vague.

Yup. I'm in that situation. I'm comfortable with calling myself ftm, but sometimes it doesn't seem entirely honest to call myself so. I suffer from as much dysphoria as any other transgender and I want my body to be male, but I enjoy presenting as and acting as a female sometimes. Above all, I want to look more androgynous than truly masculine.
So... I want to be physically male but look androgynous and occasionally cross-dress. Now that I've typed it up it doesn't seem so confusing, but it creates a lot of confusion for me to feel.

Well, there is another option, you could be a genderqueer man. I think of myself as rather genderqueer, I mean it is hard not to be having been socilised as the other sex for so long. Perhaps that will change in time. Dunno.

I spent a long time in that place. I identified as non-binary for about 7 years. I was semi cross-dressed for that time. I did not feel like I had the right to call myself female. In my case I got hormones identifying as non-binary. I did not want to just tolerate how things were, I had become sick of tolerating things. I was honest with myself and decided that identity or not I did want a more feminin body. I knew it would make me feel better. It was only after starting hormones that I suddenly realised that it was exactly what I needed, my brain went yay! I woke up one morening and I knew I was a woman. For some reason I needed that clarity, testosterone confused everything for me I think. Having a very male sex drive was something that clouded things. It forced me to take a male view on the world. That has gone now thankfully.

You are obviously transgendered. It is very likely hormones will agree with you. And you can always stop of they don't feel right.

I identify as non-binary because, well, gender is not binary. You may have trouble getting a letter for hormones but that all depends on your therapist. My therapist knew about my identity yet she had no problem at all prescribing T for me.

Sevan (my androgyne wife) has been green lighted for T by our therapist.

@Nygeel
What I meant with comfortable in a male body is when you have this phantom feeling or "inner landscape" of your body being male or mostly male and living in a female body makes you feel like your body has become awkward or almost makes you feel that you snatched a body to live in. It's not required for being trans, but a lot of trans people experience this kind of stuff. (In my case, this freaked me out almost more than the social side.)

I'm in a similar situation.  I've identified as genderqueer for several years.  In the last year and a half the dysphoria has gotten much worse though.  And while I still identify as genderqueer on the inside, I really would be much happier with a more masculine body.

I took the Bem test (Google it) and it told me that I am androgynous leaning towards masculine. That was just a confirmation of how I personally feel.
There are a lot of guys who no longer believe/fit in a black/white binary system, so don't worry, you're def. not alone.

Quote from: GDTripp on August 03, 2010, 11:15:16 PM
I took the Bem test (Google it) and it told me that I am androgynous leaning towards masculine. That was just a confirmation of how I personally feel.
There are a lot of guys who no longer believe/fit in a black/white binary system, so don't worry, you're def. not alone.

I always hate taking tests like that because they always tell me what I don't want to know. They always say that I am somewhere in the middle, but with more female leanings. I don't really like being told that I am more woman than man.

I went and searched for a site that did BEM tests, and it scored me as 60.833 out of 100 masculine, 46.667 out of 100 feminine, and 68.333 androgynous. Here is the site I went to:
http://garote.bdmonkeys.net/bsri.html?A1=3&B1=6&C1=5&A2=7&B2=2&C2=7&A3=5&B3=2&C3=7&A4=6&B4=6&C4=6&A5=5&B5=3&C5=2&A6=7&B6=5&C6=6&A7=3&B7=3&C7=6&A8=6&B8=3&C8=7&A9=5&B9=5&C9=7&A10=3&B10=7&C10=2&A11=3&B11=5&C11=6&A12=3&B12=2&C12=2&A13=3&B13=3&C13=7&A14=5&B14=3&C14=6&A15=6&B15=4&C15=7&A16=5&B16=1&C16=3&A17=3&B17=6&C17=5&A18=7&B18=3&C18=3&A19=5&B19=2&C19=6&A20=3&B20=5&C20=2

BEM seems like a good way to measure gender stereotypes as opposed to gender identity.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 04, 2010, 01:06:47 AM
BEM seems like a good way to measure gender stereotypes as opposed to gender identity.

My sentiments exactly.

I thought the SAGE test was better:
http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/sage/index.htm

The SAGE test is also a lot about clichés, unfortunately.

Reminds me of many of the silly questions my therapist (nice but old guy) asked me to find out if I was trans, like:
"When you were in a relationship with boyfriend X, who of you:
- adopted the male role? (WTF did he mean by that?)
- made the household?
- bought the groceries?
- cooked?
- repaired stuff?
- sewed
- etc."

This felt ridiculous for me, as my relationships with guys have always been very balanced in this cliché respect, we both cooked etc. so my answers left my therapist clueless about my "real" gender identity.

We definitely need a more valid GID online test to get a better first idea and which does not sound like it's been teleported into the internet from a 50ies shrink questionnaire. Don't put too much trust in these tests.

I stoped taking those types of tests.
They all indicate I am just a whisker more femme than masculine. Basicaly androgenous.
I know that already. I didn't need a test to tell me that.

The first person I saw about gender stuff asked me the very cliche questions of "how do you know you're a guy?" which I answered with "How do you know you're a woman?"

The second one (aka the REAL therapist) didn't actually ask me much. I would just say anything and everything I could think of related to my gender until I had nothing left to say.

I have always thought of myself as male, despite my female body.  For example, I remember that when I too young to understand the physical differences between boys and girls, I thought that I was a boy who had been mistaken for a girl by his parents.  I've always been able to relate to guys better, in general, because I tend to have more in common with them.  My interests are typically masculine, and I think and act in a typically masculine way. 

I enjoy presenting as androgynous / genderqueer because mixing gender expressions is fun.  But to be honest, I feel like a slightly androgynous guy.  The thing is that I'm mostly attracted to guys, and when I'm around a guy I'm attracted to, I feel and act more feminine.  I know that seems wrong, and I've tried to stop being that way, but I can't.  So maybe it's just part of who I am, or maybe if I transitioned, acting masculine around guys I'm attracted to would come more naturally to me.  Who knows. 

I'm kind of reluctant to transition, not only because I'd have fewer male partners to choose from, but because it's basically irreversible, and about half the time I'm content with the male brain / female body situation.  I'm not eager to change whatever I am biologically.  I do feel awkward in my female body, and I hate being categorized as female, but at the same time, I like my body because it's what I'm familiar with, and I don't care that much what other people think of me.

Most of the time, I'm content to identify as genderqueer based on the fact that I have a male brain and female body (and don't care for gender stereotypes anyway).  It doesn't seem worthwhile to change it if I'm not remarkably unhappy with it.  At the same time, I think of myself as a gay guy, and wish other people could see me as I really am.  But I know that being seen for who you really are is probably a life-long struggle for most people - it's not limited to gender identity.

So, yeah, I can relate to some extent.