Well yesterday was a good day, it wasn't untill this morning that things went south. Yesterday was my first ever dance club experience, with the age group being 16-24. Not really my idea of fun, but I decided to let my friend talk me into it, and I ended up going as a guy.

After taking precautions to hide ceartin blooming aspects of myself, I entered the dance club. Though it was...difficult for me to get into it, I eventually started to have alittle fun. Then things went wrong. Apperently a guy had pissed off some other guys and they were getting in each other's faces. Or a better account would be it was developing into a 1:3 battle. Being the believer in fair play and possibly the moron I am I stepped up and told the 3 to go back to dancing and lay off. I'm fuzzy on the details but apperently it developed into a 10:1 fight, or slaughter, with me in the middle. Not only that but I barely evaded being arrested. the 'kids' saying it was my fault for sticking my nose where it wasn't wanted. *shrugs*

Maybe I should have stalled and hopped a bouncer would come along. But either way I was at a disadvantage and should have seen it, early on I lost my glasses and in the strobing light could not identify the attacker's, which caused me not to blindly throw punches. Also I failed to account for how the 'mones have made me significantly weaker. So basically i'm very sore but perhaps alittle wiser. I still would have stood up for the guy, but would have planned out the consequences alittle better.

If anyone has advice that I could use in a future incident, i
de appreciate it.

Well I would certainly be running as far away from those types of incidents as possible. I hope you are OK.

Alice

Quote from: Elissa on November 26, 2006, 04:33:35 PM
If anyone has advice that I could use in a future incident, i
de appreciate it.

Find the bouncer

I don't blame you for wanting to be noble and all, but... hey, it's the bouncer's job. Let 'em earn their keep

Besides, do what a girl would do.  Don't use brute force or confrontation.  You might as well start living that way now.  You'll be better prepared for when you do go fulltime.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 26, 2006, 05:31:23 PM
Besides, do what a girl would do.  Don't use brute force or confrontation.  You might as well start living that way now.  You'll be better prepared for when you do go fulltime.

Melissa

Couldn't have said it better Melissa. 

Elissa, you're a chick, it's okay to act like one.

Julie

Elissa;

I hope you didn't take too much damage. 

One part of my epiphany was the realization that guys only pay lip-service to 'the rules' (things like fairness and consideration for others.)  They wanted to fight, preferably an easy target, and were gonna' play push-me-shove-you-yeah-sez-who until someone satisfactorily crossed their trigger line and, with the reason/excuse that they'd been 'disrespected' or something, "clobberin' time" could begin (YAY!!!)

But, you already figured that out.

Recently I've been aware of a growing level of fear I'm developing of males, especially the more testosterone-marinated-appearing ones.  I steer clear of places and situations that would give them opportunity for violence.  And my therapist last session told me explicitly I need to start fearing men.

Karen

Being in a bar is probably not very safe during transition. I dont drink and don't trust people I dont know when they are drunk. In fact there are several I do know I dont trust when they are not sober. Everybody acts different and men tend to get more violent when drunk. It's not a hate crime to kill a TS yet or beat one up. They would just get a slap on the wrist and you would get a huge medical bill. You seem pretty young and I dont know if you know how risky it was being there. And fighting with guys is certainly a bad idea. I'd say do what Melissa says. Watch what the other girls are doing and follow thier lead.

Quote from: Lori on November 26, 2006, 07:24:57 PM
I'd say do what Melissa says.

Melissa says clap your hands and jump up and down on one foot.   Oh wait, maybe that was Simon says.

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on November 26, 2006, 07:24:57 PM
Everybody acts different and men tend to get more violent when drunk. It's not a hate crime to kill a TS yet or beat one up. They would just get a slap on the wrist and you would get a huge medical bill. You seem pretty young and I dont know if you know how risky it was being there.

Well, it wasn't a bar, there was no alchohol at the dance club...at least there wasn't supposed to be. Also, they didn't think or know I was trans, they were some 18 year olds and down. I was more in risk of getting arrested for being in a fight with minors...despite my getting the stuffing beat out of me. Either way, I didn't like dance clubs much before I went, and I don't really care for them now. *shrugs* Then again, maybe a older age limit club, and me being treated as a woman might be more fun.

Quote from: ElissaAlso, they didn't think or know I was trans, they were some 18 year olds and down. I was more in risk of getting arrested for being in a fight with minors...

Whether they read you as specifically trans or not, I'll bet they read you as 'different'.  The fact that you 'meddled' at exactly the wrong time made you their chosen recipient for a beat-down.

I have a question.  Did the originally-chosen 'victim' in your 3:1 scenario escape? Or become one of the ten aggressors who turned on you?  If you enabled his escape, you can take some measure of comfort in that.

Please, do not be put off by danceclubs in general -- a very good time can be had with the right crowd and music.  You've learned the dangers of irrational male aggression, and will be much more cautious in the future.

Karen

Quote from: Karen on November 26, 2006, 07:19:10 PM

Recently I've been aware of a growing level of fear I'm developing of males, especially the more testosterone-marinated-appearing ones.  I steer clear of places and situations that would give them opportunity for violence.  And my therapist last session told me explicitly I need to start fearing men.

Why?  That just seems to deepen/widen the divide...

Refugee;

I truly wish it were not so.

But wishing the sun not to rise does not stop it from rising, either.  Nor does wishing the earth to be flat, or to be the center of the universe.

I understand and accept the principle that males in general are more-or-less programmed for irrational aggression, and a portion act on this irrational impulse -- one possible reason is some get shots of adrenaline and endorphins as positive reinforcement.  In other words, it's pleasurable for them.

This article from the Washington Post may help explain a little bit.

Karen

Quote from: Karen on November 27, 2006, 09:06:54 AM

I understand and accept the principle that males in general are more-or-less programmed for irrational aggression, and a portion act on this irrational impulse -- one possible reason is some get shots of adrenaline and endorphins as positive reinforcement.  In other words, it's pleasurable for them.

This article from the Washington Post may help explain a little bit.

I'm still not understanding why you've been told to fear ALL males, or even just males in general without any factual basis  I think its a horrible stereotype that all males, given the chance, are naturally and irrationally aggressive.  I think we intentionally perpetuate male stereotypes in our never ending quest to prove we're not men.

I've seen my share of MtFs that are horrendously, and irrationally, anti-male.  As I said, in my experence, it's almost always an attempt to distance ourselves from being viewed as male.

Refugee, I think it was meant as a precautionary thing.  Kind of a better safe than sorry.  While it is true there are many wonderful men in the world, there are also just as many that are not so wonderful.  How do you tell the rapist or the mugger from the good guys?  You can't at first glance and I think Karen was getting at that by fearing men in general (unless they are trusted) she would remain safe.

Personally, when I first started, I looked at many men in disgust and contempt because of being forced to live like one and how they acted towards me when they thought I was male.  Now at this point, I hold many men in high regard, because I am able to see them from a new vantage point and they act differently towards me.  I obviously don't fear ALL men, but mostly persons I don't know.  For instance, if I have to ride on the bus, I prefer to sit next to other women (and likewise them next to me) because it is a safety thing.  However, if the only seats available are next to men, I won't go out of my way to avoid them.  I just usually pick the safest looking one.   For me, I do have a height advantage on most women, so I don't look so weak and thus I feel less likely to be attacked.

In the particular situation of this post, these men were antagonistic in the first place and that's something to definitely be avoided as a woman.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 27, 2006, 10:53:07 AM
Refugee, I think it was meant as a precautionary thing.  Kind of a better safe than sorry.  While it is true there are many wonderful men in the world, there are also just as many that are not so wonderful.  How do you tell the rapist or the mugger from the good guys?  You can't at first glance and I think Karen was getting at that by fearing men in general (unless they are trusted) she would remain safe.

That much I would agree with.  I don't think a blanket fear of all men is necessary though.  Living in fear shouldn't be confused with being safe.  Yes it is safe on some level, but its not living.

Quote from: Melissa on November 27, 2006, 10:53:07 AM
In the particular situation of this post, these men were antagonistic in the first place and that's something to definitely be avoided as a woman.

Right.  I would tend to suspect that it has more to do with our upbringing then anything else, raised as males we're instilled from a young age that it is our duty to defend those weaker then us.  Old habits and instincts are hard to break.

Quote from: Refugee on November 28, 2006, 03:26:26 AM
Old habits and instincts are hard to break.

That's assuming you had those habits or instincts in the first place.   I was always scared to death when living as male that I would be put in a situation where I would need to defend someone.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 28, 2006, 08:24:54 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 28, 2006, 03:26:26 AM
Old habits and instincts are hard to break.

That's assuming you had those habits or instincts in the first place.   I was always scared to death when living as male that I would be put in a situation where I would need to defend someone.

Probably off topic, but in my line of work I've looked at more then one patient and thought "Yeah I can take him" or "Um...I better be really nice to him".  Most patients are non-violent, but you find yourself constantly evaluating the situation.

I will forever probably have that habit with me.

If you cannot avoid trouble and find yourself in a pickle take some advice from Aunty lolli and learn self defence.
Personally when I see trouble I turn away, because I dont need the predjudice that comes from some males and a few females.
Dont get involved in on going battles that dont concern you.
Dont be a hero before weighing up the odds.

Whats that saying Spock used to say ( live long and prosper ) 

Quote from: lolli on November 28, 2006, 11:53:26 AM
If you cannot avoid trouble and find yourself in a pickle take some advice from Aunty lolli and learn self defence.
Personally when I see trouble I turn away, because I dont need the predjudice that comes from some males and a few females.
Dont get involved in on going battles that dont concern you.
Dont be a hero before weighing up the odds.

Whats that saying Spock used to say ( live long and prosper ) 

That's a life lesson that everyone can apply.  Gain some street smarts, learn to recognize trouble brewing and when you see it coming, walk the other way.  I don't blame Elissa, but in retrospect, I'm sure there were some subtle and maybe not so subtle clues that trouble was brewing.  Learn to read body language and know what an aggressive posture/stance is.

One thing we always do in an emotionally charged situation is always be aware of our exits, including leaving doors open, etc to facilitate a rapid exit, but we also avoid standing between someone and a potential exit.  Just blocking an exit can be seen as hostility.

Thanks all, so far as I know, as soon as the guys started hitting me the guy I was helping made a break for it. As for myself, as a friend told me today, "its not bad that you got jumped and you have to TELL people that that is the reason for some minor bruises."

I knew before that some people do well in clubs, and others like me prefer to do more quiet activities. As I said, I think I will avoid emotionally charged areas like teen dance clubs where teens are getting high on their own hormones...and other things. My friend satisfied his curiosity of the club and next time he can go with someone else.

Thanks for the concern all, luckly God gave me a tank for a body, now if only I could get it to look good in a skirt.