Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 26, 2006, 09:06:49 PM
I have been treated unfairly by society either.

Were you intending to say you haven't?

Melissa

Quote from: MelissaAs for unfair treatment in general society, at this point, I can't recall ever remember experiencing this.

Quote from: TinkerbellI second what Melissa has said here.  I haven't been treated unfairly by society either.  However, I know that this has to do with the fact that "they" don't know I am TS....but what if "they" did?  would "they" accept me and treat me with the same kind of respect?  I honestly can't answer that because I have never experienced it......although my feminine intuition tells me that "they" wouldn't.

Hmn... May I (gently, gingerly, delicately) suggest that maybe we think about this topic's title in light of the above two members' postings?

And may I also clearly state that I feel that the more of us who pass well enough to live in stealth who live out, the more society in general will eventually come to accept TG/TS as not-sin, not-bad, not-crazy, not-weird, etc., and will instead more and more see it as something perhaps a bit rare but entirely natural and okay.

I also feel there might be a bit of a backlash in the near term.  Look at 'gay marriage'.  Personally I think it's a ridiculous term -- I see marriage as marriage an outward manifestation of a deep and long-term commitment and union between two people, not a reward for sustaining and supporting a patriarchal-based society ("If you don't rock our boat, we'll let you get your freak on with your spouse, guilt free!!!")  But we (society) are actually debating 'gay marriage', where when I was a kid, Stonewall had yet to happen and I resented my stepbrothers calling me a homosexual at every chance.

Progress can be made.

But it takes work. 

(dang!  I just noticed I slipped into rant mode again.  Well, finish what I started...)

Somebody's gotta be Rosa Parks, getting hauled off a bus for sitting in the 'wrong' seat.  Somebody's gotta get sprayed with firehoses and worse in Selma, Alabama.  And, yes, people can work behind the scenes, too.

Guess I better put my soapbox away.

I hope this topic becomes a discussion on how to get the awareness, acceptance and valuation of TG/TS people raised in society.  Julia tried to start it by posing a what-if -- what IF all the totally passable and in deep stealth trans-women were out and recognized as being transwomen?  Would society as a whole come to eventually change its view on TG/TS people from what it is now?

Some people can't go out of stealth, some don't want to.  But we can all do things to undo the Jerry-Springer-promoted view of US as freaks.  What can we do?

Lets talk about it...

Karen

Well if I do end up revealing myself, it will come slowly.  I got too much backlash from my parents, brother and sister to be completely trusting of society.  To clarify, I have been in stealth situations where I am sure I would have experienced violence if I had revealed, but to the people I have revealed myself I haven't recived any.

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on November 26, 2006, 07:31:32 PM
Julie I think the key you found in not trying to overdo things is going to be at the top of my list. I think we try too hard and put on to much makeup at first, wear the skirts and heels and look unnatural. I don't know about others but I am learning a ton of stuff from you, including your attitude. Jeans and T-shirts seem to be the going trend of dress here lately and women seem to be very casual. Seems like a great time to transition, wouldn't be much different from what I wear now.

Lori, we all go through a metamorphosis.  The moth to a butterfly is an often used and a very accurate analogy to describe what we go through. 

As we go through these stages our first inclination is to hide and disguise anything male about us.  So we over do it.  As we metamorphose during transition we learn the subtleties that separate the natural woman from the unnatural one.  Physical gender has nothing to do with it.

You're right about today's fashion.  It's probably more conducive to gender neutral attire than ever.  It wasn't that long ago I was convinced I had to be all dolled up to pass.  I pass almost always when in casual attire.  It's when I get all dolled up that I get clocked.  I've wondered if I'm living in Bizzaro World.

In many ways you are right Lori, this is a great time to transition.  But better times will come as long as we don't allow society to make us carry their intolerance.

Quote from: Kate on November 26, 2006, 08:41:59 PM

I've spent so much time here lately ranting and accusing "society" of being a bunch of ignorant, judgemental ninkinoops, thinking all sorts of mean things about me before even getting to KNOW me.

It should be noted that I've never, ever actually GONE anywhere "enfemme." Maybe *I* am the judgemental ninkinpoop, demonizing THEM before even giving them a chance. Hmmm.

I'm probably just so insecure and terrified that I'm already demonizing them in advance, blaming THEM for "making" me go to such extraordinary lengths as facial surgery and whatnot just to fit in seamlessly. And OK, much of that is for ME, for ME to be comfortable with myself even OUTSIDE of the public eye.

But STILL. I read posts such as Julie's and MEW's just going out and doing their business, and I'm just overwhelmed with both jealousy AND admiration.

What you are doing Kate is no different that what I've done many times.  I've blamed society just like you.  And like you I was insecure and terrified so I made them the cause of my problems. 

Kate, I need to tell you this.  When I go out I still have fears.  When I go out I still worry.  When I go out I wonder what people think.  But I cannot live in a self imposed prison.  When I described a TS friend who was so comfortable with herself to another friend I heard, "So it's no longer her problem, it's everyone elses'."  I thought about that and was blown away by it's simplicity.  So I decided to make who I am every one else's problem, not mine.  I won't carry their burden for them. 

We have been trained, from birth, to believe it's our responsibility to march in lock step with societal expectations.  They don't care how you feel inside.  They don't care what your real personality is.  All they care about is you not upsetting their simple world.  It's like "Please!  Don't make me think!"  It's kind of sad.

Kate, I never thought I could pass.  But thanks to the support I've had here, I knew I had to go out and live life as me.  Confidence is important.  And confidence can only be gained by doing.  By doing I've become more comfortable going out as me.  I've spent almost two weeks living a female life.  I've spent Thanksgiving with family.  I've gone holiday shopping.  I've run errands.  Not once did I revert back to male.  I just couldn't.  But I'm nowhere near where I will be one day.  Transition takes time.  From what I've experienced so far it's time well spent.  They say transitioning is a miracle.  So far I haven't seen anything to dispute that.

Julie

I have made the phrase going out and being stealth without even trying. I really think that people don't even care that you are TG. When I have told people, this is when I first came out, they would say oh and ask, what I thought was a dumb question, and I would answer them truthfully. The questions were a variety so I'm not listing them. Now, people don't even ask about me they don't even care, I guess I should cry my eyes out because they don't care about me anymore, but they don't. It's strange. I would imagine that the only place you would have a problem would be in community showers, like a gym or swimming pool area. Then it could be solved, too. I have had people thank me for being so open and that they like that. I guess it's called honesty.
Sheila

Quote from: KarenAnd may I also clearly state that I feel that the more of us who pass well enough to live in stealth who live out, the more society in general will eventually come to accept TG/TS as not-sin, not-bad, not-crazy, not-weird, etc., and will instead more and more see it as something perhaps a bit rare but entirely natural and okay.

I hope this topic becomes a discussion on how to get the awareness, acceptance and valuation of TG/TS people raised in society.  Julie tried to start it by posing a what-if -- what IF all the totally passable and in deep stealth trans-women were out and recognized as being transwomen?  Would society as a whole come to eventually change its view on TG/TS people from what it is now?

Some people can't go out of stealth, some don't want to.  But we can all do things to undo the Jerry-Springer-promoted view of US as freaks.  What can we do?

Lets talk about it...

Karen

Karen, somehow I missed your post.    Anyway, I agree with you.

I was talking to my doctor yesterday.  He's probably brought more girls through transitioning than any other doctor presently practicing in Illinois today, maybe ever.  I told him some of what has been discussed here and said, "If those who can live in stealth do then society will only see those who cannot pass or just don't try and they will be our representatives."  He agreed wholeheartedly and said he's seen that and recognized that as a real problem for us.  It's not that there's anything wrong with those who can't pass but the general public is only seeing part of who we are.  And those who truly can't pass, I think, represent only a small fraction of us.  Attitude has an awful lot to do with passing. 

Springer and other sensationalistic media whores parade on stage anything that will shock the audience.  They have done our community a great disservice and we have to undo the damage or we'll forever carry the burden.  Yes, things are better now than they ever were but I don't know anyone who likes the present situation.  So something must be done.

Society has to see us for who we really are.  The only way I know of that happening is we have to put our face out there.  But if we don't have our best representatives out there the road will be longer and more difficult.  Put the wrong representative out there and it could set us back, big time!

Sadly the biggest problem we may face is people don't want to listen to us.  They just want us to go away.  Hollywood could help us out tremendously but what's in it for them?  Transamerica did okay even though Huffman was nominated for an Oscar.  For the most part movie goers just weren't interested in seeing a movie about a man becoming a woman, not even if that person was played by a very popular actress.

So the question is how do we get them to listen?  The gay movement paraded out in the streets, many in provocative attire.  Initially it was a setback but they kept it up until people listened.  And the people who will make the most difference initially are the politicians.  They will listen, AS LONG AS THEY KNOW THERE ARE ENOUGH VOTES OUT THERE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!  That's why they have to know how many of there really are.  How do we get that magic number?

Julie

I believe that our best representation is made by ALL of us as we go through transition.  This is where the public sees us change from a male to a woman in the course of our RLT.   This is where they see the spectrum of who we are and what we look like, before and after.  This is our prized gift we do give to the world.

Sure, Springer has the oddballs.  But it is like minded oddballs who watch his show.  There is a great percentage of the thinking population who has had the positive experience of watching one of us change. So, go gettum girls!

Cindi

I participated in this thread halfway through, then I blinked, and suddenly it's twice as many pages, lol.  I guess it interests all of us!

Someone asked why post-ops come back to Susan's.  Three reasons, in my case:  (1) Hopefully to help others, (2) because, even though I'm post-op, I still find I can learn things and (3) because I still admittedly have issues (including occasional fear and depression) to work out.

Regarding appearance, I generally wear gender-neutral clothing and find, as others have, that it can often help my "passing." The key, for me, was noting that most women around me dressed that way and so I, wanting to blend in, followed.  When I am just wearing pajamas and no makeup and have to unexpectedly answer the door, it of course delights me when the person greets me, "Good morning, ma'am."  That experience is one of my favorite things in the world.  When it happens to you (as I assure you it will), the last thing you'll think about is "coming out."  It feels SO GOOD that it's like reaching a beautiful destination.

Regarding negativity, I assure you that, when post ops offer a negative personal experience about transitioning, they are not trying to make anyone feel sad.  They are simply telling it as it is, from their point of view.  My ex often warned me about the perils of transitioning.  It didn't stop me.  And it shouldn't, if you are sincere about transitioning, stop you either.  I joked with my friends once, using a famous quote, "It could be that the whole purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others."  They knew enough about me (I'm a pretty determined individual) to know that I WASN'T going to stop transitioning.  By saying the quote though, I put into a humorous way the angst I was going through -- I was letting off steam, trying to cheer myself.  It's kind of like the joke about the guy who jumps off a building and says as he falls downwards, "Well, so far so good!"  But don't worry too much... 

Try, if you can, to laugh about your worries about transitioning or your ponderings of "whether or not to come out."  By laughing at my own worries, I began relieving my own tensions.  I made it and you can make it.  Bottom line, my optimism tells me that issues like "gay marriage" and "transsexualism" will become boring and not worthy of raising an eyebrow on Jerry Springer.  And then, poor Jerry will have to move onto some other ratings-grabbing issue.  As someone pointed out, transsexuals are gaining acceptance much faster than the centuries gays had to endure before being generally accepted.

I will come out at times when I feel it's appropriate and, in my own way, promise to try to help our cause.

Teri Anne

Has been a long long time since I've posted here, how time flies... something led me here tonight, and decided to post to the thread.

There is as many unique stories as there are people on the planet, and this remains true for lgbt folk. When it comes to being stealth and such, yes and no. With those I work with, those I get to know, no. With strangers and such, you betcha. I work for a state agency in a small office, eight of us, with a superb, unfortunately soon to leave, boss. Of the seven others, 5 are women, 2 of us are dykes. Of the two guys, well... a month after being there, he came over to me and came out as tg, and those numbers shifted. I say he now, simply because changing the pronoun could lead to his outing, and only me, the other dyke, and our boss knows.

I transitioned over 3 years ago now, and what is amazing is how excrutiatingly painful the prior to was, and how very non-scary the apres transition has been. When I used to post here say... 7 or so years ago, then under rayeellen, well, transition was not even considered an option, it was an abstract dream, this in a life I'd never thought would be left behind. Well, life had a funny way of getting it done, though those who know me know I'd really not wish to relive the dysfunction of 2001-2003, and it's nice being out here post such events.

As for others, there have been people who have told me I had some obligation to tell those I interact with. Yeah, right. Relationships yes, casual acquaintances, no flipping way. Why do they need to know?

Anyway... I'm definitely out as a feminist and as a dyke, what with my doggie rainbow sticker to the back of my car, kitty rainbow to the front, and in other not so passively displayed ways, but as tg... where and when I choose.

nelle

Living in stealth is fine

I find it very exciting
a night out under candlelight in an Italian restaurant in Kerry
and after the Italian red wine I'm drinking O'Hara's stout & all I'm worried about is............is the
O'Hara's making my lipstick weaker ...in its strength!!!

I love being in stealth mode!!!
it excites me.....i like the magic of it

It makes my heart beat faster

High heels down the cobbled streets,,,,,,,,,,

& the sound of Ireland around me

............... and then when I'm at Susan's I like being unstealthy too

Being in unstealth mode is also ok

Every year I hold a Halloween party at my ancient cottage in deepest darkest country......the
hazel bush scratching at the window & the ivy creeping through the cracks

We get all sorts coming along

The Angel of Death, Sergeant Pepper, Sister Sin the Nun from Hell, Al Capone, Johnny
Rotten with Nancy, Dr Death who actually works at a hospital & had to resuscitate a number
of us later on in the evening.....maybe readying us for another world .......... and also me as
myself!!

Everybody else dressed........and I'm undressed!!...........very undressed ..........ie dressed as
me!!.................me myself.............misty

Just having a beautiful unstealthy ,....,,,but maybe also unhealthy evening!!....my punches
such as the "Rats Spleen Juice" infused with bilberries and home-grown blackberries........
..............oozing strength and vitamin C..!!!

I did have one punch entitled "Transsexual Conversion Potion – 24 hour Action"
...............which seemed rather popular and seemed to react a little faster than anticipated
............suddenly we had French tarts on every corner of the cottage touting for business
lips pursed at the ready...............but nevertheless  it seemed  to be very appreciated by
all.......

Except perhaps by the mums that had sons arriving home as daughters!!!

I like both modes!!!

I wish you all well

My love

misty  xxx

Quote from: misty on December 04, 2006, 03:50:30 PM
Living in stealth is fine

I find it very exciting
a night out under candlelight in an Italian restaurant in Kerry
and after the Italian red wine I'm drinking O'Hara's stout & all I'm worried about is............is the
O'Hara's making my lipstick weaker ...in its strength!!!

I love being in stealth mode!!!
it excites me.....i like the magic of it

It makes my heart beat faster

High heels down the cobbled streets,,,,,,,,,,

& the sound of Ireland around me

............... and then when I'm at Susan's I like being unstealthy too

Being in unstealth mode is also ok

Every year I hold a Halloween party at my ancient cottage in deepest darkest country......the
hazel bush scratching at the window & the ivy creeping through the cracks

We get all sorts coming along

The Angel of Death, Sergeant Pepper, Sister Sin the Nun from Hell, Al Capone, Johnny
Rotten with Nancy, Dr Death who actually works at a hospital & had to resuscitate a number
of us later on in the evening.....maybe readying us for another world .......... and also me as
myself!!

Everybody else dressed........and I'm undressed!!...........very undressed ..........ie dressed as
me!!.................me myself.............misty

Just having a beautiful unstealthy ,....,,,but maybe also unhealthy evening!!....my punches
such as the "Rats Spleen Juice" infused with bilberries and home-grown blackberries........
..............oozing strength and vitamin C..!!!

I did have one punch entitled "Transsexual Conversion Potion – 24 hour Action"
...............which seemed rather popular and seemed to react a little faster than anticipated
............suddenly we had French tarts on every corner of the cottage touting for business
lips pursed at the ready...............but nevertheless  it seemed  to be very appreciated by
all.......

Except perhaps by the mums that had sons arriving home as daughters!!!

I like both modes!!!

I wish you all well

My love

misty  xxx

If only I could be across the atlantic with you. You sound so...magical.

The biggest thing I don't like about being out is when people choose to use the wrong pronouns.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on December 04, 2006, 05:38:02 PM
The biggest thing I don't like about being out is when people choose to use the wrong pronouns.

Melissa

Often times it's just ignorance.  Unintentional ignorance.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 04, 2006, 06:32:23 PM

Quote from: Melissa on December 04, 2006, 05:38:02 PM
The biggest thing I don't like about being out is when people choose to use the wrong pronouns.

Melissa

Often times it's just ignorance.  Unintentional ignorance.

Julie

Well, yeah, it's a choice made with ignorance, but it's still a choice.  Another choice is they could ask instead of assume.

Melissa

Another way of dealing with it Melissa is to throw it right back at who is doing it, not at that particular moment but when the proper occassion arises. Most men will see it as a joke initially but after it has been repeated a few times they tend to get the message if they have any decency at all. If they enquire as to why you are doing it, simply ask them how does if feel to be addressed as the wrong gender.

Byee,
  Brina

Hey, Brina!

I can't do it to everybody, but to friends I'm out to, I make it sort of a game.  If they mess up and call me he, him or sir, I'll refer to them with the wrong pronoun.  They laugh and catch on real fast.

Karen

My best friend offered this deal to me about 4 years ago:  If she calls me "he," she owes me $5.00.  She was, of course, kind to offer and it's worked.  She only called me "he" a couple of times, then it was too painful to do it again, lol.  Now, if we could only get a national law passed to that affect!

Teri Anne

Quote from: Melissa on December 04, 2006, 07:10:54 PM
Well, yeah, it's a choice made with ignorance, but it's still a choice.  Another choice is they could ask instead of assume.

Melissa

Honestly Melissa, I think some people don't think, some people are afraid to ask, some people can't see but some people intentionally do it to attempt to degrade you.  I look in their eyes and try to read what's going on in their heads.  When the eyes roll and dart around, you know they are having a hard time with it.

It's up to us to educate them.  If we do it in a respectful and kind manner, the next time they run into that situation they will remember us and hopefully act in a respectful and kind manner.

Deciding to live in the physical gender opposite the one you were born is difficult in this society.  We have to expect resistance.  People don't want their beliefs challenged.  They can't handle it.  And the reason is they have been told something that isn't true or founded in any sort of logic and we represent a challenge to that.  They can't support their beliefs and so they become defensive when we challenge them.  In a real sense, we are asking them why they think your genitals define who you are.  They can't answer that.  Then think maybe they have been misled by everyone they have known and trusted.  They can't handle that.  They then turn and blame you.

Thinking there's something wrong with someone who is uncomfortable with their physical gender is one of the myths that's been passed down for generations.  We are told something by people we trust completely, we take it for gospel and as long as it isn't challenged, everything is fine.  The majority of transgender people have lived their life either partly or completely in hiding.  The myths have been virtually unchallenged.  Therefore they are believed to be fact.  They need to be challenged and on a large scale.

That's one of the reasons I feel so strongly that we need to open the eyes and minds of the public so they can see their beliefs need to be reevaluated.  And the more of us that are out there, representing transgender people all over the world in a good light, the less they will be able to ignore us or act like we don't exist.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 07:41:52 PM
My best friend offered this deal to me about 4 years ago:  If she calls me "he," she owes me $5.00.  She was, of course, kind to offer and it's worked.  She only called me "he" a couple of times, then it was too painful to do it again, lol.  Now, if we could only get a national law passed to that affect!

Teri Anne

Actually Teri, the City of New York is proposing a law that will allow people to choose their gender, regardless of what's between their legs.  If they are discriminated against because of their choice, laws will be in place to protect them.

The transgender person has to meet certain criteria before the change will be approved.  They have to prove they have lived in their chosen gender for two years and have to provide letters from a therapist and a doctor confirming they are truly the gender they claim to identify with.  Once the change is approved, their vital documents will be altered to reflect the new gender and the change will be permanent.

That a city as large as New Your has made the effort to pass a law such as this is certainly good news.  Little by little we are making positive strides but until each and every one of us feels we are able to live the way we want, openly and free from discrimination, we have to keep working.

Julie

Thanks Julie and everyone.  I've heard all of that before here on Susans, but generally this comes from people in the GLBT community and people I don't associate with regularly.  I think everyone I interact with on a regular basis gets the pronouns wrong.  Every once in a blue moon, there's a couple people at work that slip and then correct themselves immediately (true accident) and that doesn't bother me.  I try not to let the whole thing bother me, but it kind of does like a little sliver would.

Melissa

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 07:41:52 PM
My best friend offered this deal to me about 4 years ago:  If she calls me "he," she owes me $5.00.  She was, of course, kind to offer and it's worked.  She only called me "he" a couple of times, then it was too painful to do it again, lol.  Now, if we could only get a national law passed to that affect!

Teri Anne

hmmmm.... anyone who calls me a "he" or calls me by my former name has very serious gender issues, and they would get a slap on both cheeks from me.  It has not happened yet, but if it did, I'd not consider it funny at all but very offensive indeed.  Just my thoughts.

tinkerbell