So....on the discussion board i most frequent (a general interest place, not a T-place) someone started a thread about "Boys Don't Cry" and the subject diverted, as they are wont to do, into something else entirely.

Only a handful of people participating here but the consensus of the three or four guys (and at least one woman) who posted in the thread is that a transwoman (post-op) is ALWAYS obliged to tell a potential sexual partner BEFORE the first sex act that she is trans.

Even if it's a totally casual one-night stand....even if there is no practical way the man will ever find out about her past...even if the whole evining goes well and he's going to be none the wiser....

they argued that it is rank deception and unethical to not disclose (with the implicit at first and latter explicitly stated implication that "I refuse to have sex with someone who EVER had a penis") and remarked that it would cause "trauma" if they found out after the fact.

i told them, politely for the most part, that they were full of s***. That such a standard would do nothing but ensure that all post-op women would remain permenantly celibate.

i pointed out that deception was a routine part of the casual sex dance that everyone was familiar with, and that if he never knew the difference, then he'd never have any reason to feel wronged.

(after I disabused him of his conviction that he'd be able to recognize a neoVagina on sight)

I conceded one would be well advised to be honest if a relationship developed, and i conceded that one would have to be confident that the secret would stay secret (i.e. if lots of folks around town know you are trans, odds are good someone might tell him and then he'd come to stomp your a**)

but otherwise - I held that it was unrealistic to demand to be told in advance of any sexual contact.

Am I wrong?

of all the worldwide sex acts of the last 24  hours a good percentage would have included deception of some sort or other so there is no reason for a post-op to tell.
we only hear the tip of the iceberg of the trauma that is inflicted on TS who choose not to tell.

I think it is up to the person when and if they tell, but that's just my opinion. 

It's interesting about the forum you visit having this type of discussion as a similar discussion came up months ago on a site I frequent which is not a TG site either. 

This guy who is a regular and openly gay on this particular forum was on some kind of crusade to warn all ftms to disclose their status or he would physically assault them if he found out by other means.  He was so angry it was amazing. 

Many people tried to reason with him but his transphobia was so ingrained he couldn't see any other side but his own.  He eventually told us about how he had met up with a ftm a few years prior, obviously was very interested and when he found out he went ballistic.

He said he felt betrayed and tricked by this person and would never accept a relationship of any kind with a ftm.  It was a pretty intense thread but it was good to see most people stood their ground against him, especially when he expressed the violence he was prepared to perpetrate on another person on discovery that they were not born male. Very scary. 

Possibly it is more 'important' for an FtM to reveal their physical status before having sex with a gay guy, only because, and correct me if I am wrong, an FtM will not have a penis and testicles. A bit of a give away. A post op MtF with a neovagina etc would not necessarily arouse any suspicion from a male partner, particularly a horny one . Not sure whether a lesbian encounter would be as unrevealing.

My comments are only based on a casual encounter BTW. If there is a relationship I do believe that the truth must come out.

However, all that said the threat of violence against a partner for not revealing the structure of their sex organs is totally overboard. Violence of any kind is just dumb.

JMO

Cindy

I don't think it's wrong if you don't want to tell someone your trans before a one night stand, it's not like it's contagious

If you have to reveal you used to have "other parts" before sex then they should also reveal a secret that might compromise them, that way if something goes sour you have dirt

I'd liken it to telling someone you had a boob job before sex.

 There's no clear right or wrong here since it's all a matter of personal opinion, but I find the argument that "there's plenty of deception already so it's ok" kind of confusing. Since when is deception ok? I know it's extremely common but if you found out about some form of deception after the fact you would still be offended, right?
  Anyways, I believe it's a good idea to disclose beforehand since it would very likely matter greatly to him if he knew. It's basically tricking him into something he wouldn't do otherwise, isn't it? That seems wrong to me. Added to that is the threat of him somehow finding out later and becoming violent.

  However there's the counter argument about it being unreasonable to be expected to disclose personal medical history to every new sexual partner...  I become a little unsure of my position whenever that's brought up.

Probably going against the flow here but if i was to have sexual contact with someone i would always disclose my situation beforehand. Not because i feel they have a right to know (although that is a bit of a grey area in my mind) but purely from a personal safety point of view. That said anyone whos completely living stealth with a high degree of success, i could understand if they chose not to divulge.

Quote from: Hermione01especially when he expressed the violence he was prepared to perpetrate on another person on discovery that they were not born male. Very scary.  :-\
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good - i.e slimy lawyers get men off murder charges regularly by saying that of course it is perfectly reasonable for a red blooded guy to go ballistic and murder someone who tricked him into thinking they were as redblooded and male as himself.

I think that the essential preliminary chatting and flirting and meetings would enable both sides to figure each other out before sex rears its ugly head or lack thereof and things turn nasty.

Only on a one night stand in a strange city would it be ok to not disclose.
If the person lives in your city it would be a good idea to always be upfront with the truth. It could come back to you.

Personaly I will not have this come up as I do not pass. Also as I am happily maried, not likely. And add that to being HIV+ my odds of ever having sex with someone else is pretty much non existant.

Quote from: Amy85 on August 20, 2010, 04:29:11 AM
There's no clear right or wrong here since it's all a matter of personal opinion, but I find the argument that "there's plenty of deception already so it's ok" kind of confusing. Since when is deception ok? I know it's extremely common but if you found out about some form of deception after the fact you would still be offended, right?

to an extent, it would depend on what the deception was (i.e, if there's an STD, that's big - if they say they are in a band, not so much) and my own intentions.

The point is not so much "other deception justifies this deception" but "why aren't you on about ALL deception instead of just THIS deception?"

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  Anyways, I believe it's a good idea to disclose beforehand since it would very likely matter greatly to him if he knew. It's basically tricking him into something he wouldn't do otherwise, isn't it? That seems wrong to me.

I look at it as not allowing his bigotry to get in the way of what he does want to do. If he finds me winsome enough to want to bed me, and he can complete that act to his satisfaction and go away none the wiser - he did what he wanted to do.

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Added to that is the threat of him somehow finding out later and becoming violent.

Well yes, i qualified this that i was referring only to situations where the secret is quite secure. He can't find out upon inspection (assuming all I've read here is true) and if he suspects something is amiss, he has no real evidence. I wouldn't do this in a situation where i was in the same town where I was "out" to everyone and there was some possibility he'd find out later. Anytime you think your safety is at risk that alters the discussion.

I Don't Think That its completely vital to say Something.

The Biggest sex organ is your brain so Genitals are just secondary.
I do feel that in some cases it can be VERY dangerous to tell someone that you were born a man
ESPECIALLY on a one night stand or a causal hook up.

I Have first had physical experience of what happens when you open up to someone you don't know.

I don't by any means think its mandatory to inform someone of your gender before doing the passion scratch.
Natal women don't have to go out of their way to mention what their sex is
why should TWomen?