Greetings.

I stumbled onto the term androgyne yesterday...found this site today. Perhaps I should have waited a few more weeks before posting rather then just post. Forgive me if I inadvertantly step on some toes in my excitement.

I have recently discovered this theory that most people strongly identify with being male or female...is that true? Sorry if I'm coming off as severely stupid but I always thought that was a phase people went through before they grew out of it.

How does one know if one is an androgyne (I hope I use the term correctly) rather then just socially enept? I always classed myself with ineptness socially or as having a severe lack of desire in the area of acting female...

I completely believe that people look at other people and do a quite male/female classification visually...I do too. But I assume that's just a visual thing and that everyone thinks of themselves as a human being. For example - "Look over there at that guy" or "I like her shoes". I always the last person to know someone's gay...or was a man.

I think(thought?) some people enjoy being male or female more...like they revel in the visuals, in playing a part... am I completely off base here?  Can someone please tell me what standard female thinking is? Whats the difference between being ...an androgyne and just not wanting to play the girl game? Thats all some woman do isn't it? Just choose to identify with the stereotype of being a woman?

Can someone clarify whats normal psychologically for someone who is female? I'd be happy with even some half-a**ed online test.

I'm finding this all hard to believe.

Chunk

some women are truly comfortable in the social role of "woman" while others aren't. You don't have to act "male' or "female" just act like yourself.

Chunk,

Ethan stated a very important concept, the mistake a number of people make is that they get too caught up in how society expects them to act instead of just being themselves. Some people go out of their way to find titles and labels that describe them and some people just want to label themselves as just being themselves.

As far as whether most people strongly identify with being male or female, I'm not too sure thats true. A lot of people don't give the thing much thought at all, unless they feel significantly different from what society expects of them. Females can show male traits and as long as its not in excess no one really gives them a hard time. Same thing with guys being very sensitive and compassionate, as long as its not excessive, no one thinks the wiser.

Generally most people fall under the technical definition of being an androgyne but as far as who identifies as one is a much smaller subset, but usually those people that fell they're close to the middle of inbetween male and female and those who have gone past the middle towards the opposite gender of their birth sex.

Yes some people enjoy demonstrating very defined male or female traits, visuals, playing the part and all that good stuff, but its really on a person to person basis at what level they wish to demonstrate each of the genders.

Is it possible to classify whats normal for a female? Or male for that matter? No, normal is relative. You can determine generalities but all they are are observations of common traits. Each person is going to be made up mostly of a mixture of both male and female traits spanning from the two extreme poles to a perfect mixture of all male and female traits.

I hope I'm getting answers to some of the questions of yours. I look foward to continuing this conversation, so please feel free to ask us more specific questions and maybe we can get you looking in the right direction for your answers. Take some time to view the topic at the top of this section on what an androgyne is as well as browsing any number of the topics here on other aspects.

-Us

Hi Chunk. Welcome to Susan's. By all means, post away. And don't worry about stepping on anybody's toes. We tend to just smile and keep on dancing.

I get the feeling that what you're seeing is the "extreme" side of male and female (macho and ultra femme). Some people act like that naturally, and some do like to act that way. But there are many ways to be male or female.

Stepping back from the extremes, most people are told that they're a girl or a boy and what that usually means, and on the whole it just feels right to them. It isn't something they think much about, if at all, for themselves. But some people feel that isn't really right in their case. It's not something anybody tells you, it's just something you know.

How do you know you're an androgyne? That's something you come to know for yourself. You identify with others who identify as androgyne so therefore you must be an androgyne too. It's really no different than any other identity you have, political, social, whatever.

As Ethan and Marq and Mia said, just be yourself. That's really all you can be. Whether you're female, androgyne, or something else, first and foremost you're Chunk. And that's a good thing to be.

I don't understand what you mean by socially inept. If you feel comfortable, please tell us more about feeling socially inept versus being an androgyne versus being female. It sounds like you have a million questions you're dying to ask. We're here and we're listening.

Thanks its all good info to read.

I feel like acting female is a role that I have to work hard at. Woman talk to me and I don't know what they are trying to say. They laugh when I say things. Men are shocked when I say things about women in general - like another group of people. The guys say to a new guy, don't worry about her she's one of the guys. I forget that I am female. They say and do things I don't understand. Women make me nervous. I often tell my husband that a female body is far too high maintainence. As if having a vagina itself isn't enough to deal with, then there's the hair, the makeup, the clothes, the doors being held open, people buying drinks. Its always a shock to be reminded that I'm a woman. But I have no desire to be male physically...but its an interesting idea this concept of actively experimenting with openly being less female and more male. Like sliding the setting closer to the middle gender wise.

I am in my 40s, married and I enjoy sex. I enjoy my body. About 5 months ago I started imaging myself as more like a man and a woman in one body. It is far more comfortable to live like that, with that in my head. So I embraced being odd socially, and feeling male and female at once. Then I find this word androgyne and it makes me wonder about some things. Like maybe I'm not so odd? But I can't help but think that the ideal is for people to be treated as human beings and not as whatever they present, so am I androgyne or am I shooting for an ideal that no one else takes seriously or am I just screwed up mentally and will never fit in socially?

oops, have to go, the husband is back. 

chunk

Chunk,

You realy have wrote some interesting comments there.

Quote
but its an interesting idea this concept of actively experimenting with openly being less female and more male. Like sliding the setting closer to the middle gender wise.

Thats correct. Everyone assumes that gender is either male or female but the world we live in gender is more a slidding scale  male are one end and female at the other. Everyone is somewhere on the scale and we have to be comfortable with sitting in the middle somewhere. It has taken me a while to understand that - althought I do act in many feminine ways there is no need for me to change body as I am also happy as a male.

Quote
But I can't help but think that the ideal is for people to be treated as human beings and not as whatever they present, so am I androgyne or am I shooting for an ideal that no one else takes seriously or am I just screwed up mentally and will never fit in socially?

Yes people should just treat others as human beings. There are many of us who find that they do not fit onto soiceties defintion of gender so we need to make our own rules here. It does not me we can not fit into soceity - you have a husband and presumable a successful Marriage. After all this time your husband obviously loces you for who you are.

All we can really do is be happy with who we are.

Alice

You will always be treated based on how you look and present.  Only a miniscule number of individuals actually see people for who they are.

I just ignore it.  I get it all the time.  The guys are always trying to get me to hook up with girls, but I just ignore them.  It's easy to act like you lack interest, when in fact you do.  Being an asexual androgyne does present some speed bumps.

It's all about self-confidence, really.  People aren't much different from animals.  They tend to follow the most dominant person in a social group.  If you don't let people push you around, they won't.  However, that is easier said than done.  You are, after all, outnumbered.

Quote from: chunk on November 28, 2006, 10:09:44 PMBut I can't help but think that the ideal is for people to be treated as human beings and not as whatever they present, so am I androgyne or am I shooting for an ideal that no one else takes seriously or am I just screwed up mentally and will never fit in socially?

The stock answer, and for good reason, is that only you can really know what you are. But from what you've said in both of your posts in this thread you sure sound like an androgyne. So if you're not you're probably something similar.

People take your ideal seriously but it can be difficult to put into practice. One one hand people say that gender and such shouldn't matter but on the other hand we learn that women are like A and men are like B. If you can get past/around that and live your ideal, good for you.

QuoteAbout 5 months ago I started imaging myself as more like a man and a woman in one body.

I'm not totally sure where it came from (well, trying to keep one part of me hidden but that's not quite what I mean) but I used to feel like there were two people standing here and you could only see one of them. I don't feel that anymore but the net effect is still like there's a man and a woman living co-operatively in one body. So it's interesting that you're imagining yourself like that.

Enjoy the middle of the gender spectrum. These are some great seats.

Quote
I'm not totally sure where it came from (well, trying to keep one part of me hidden but that's not quite what I mean) but I used to feel like there were two people standing here and you could only see one of them. I don't feel that anymore but the net effect is still like there's a man and a woman living co-operatively in one body. So it's interesting that you're imagining yourself like that.

Incidently having a seperate male and female persona that sort of take turns presenting themselves is exactly what a bi-gendered person experiences(like myself). Check out the topics based around being bi-gendered(couple of the topics I started) and see if you draw any similiarities to our stories and experiences. Bigendered individuals are a more specific classification of an androgyne and for the most part feel very well balanced emotionally because they adapt to situations by allowing traits from one or both personas to handle that situation optimally. The other specific classification of androgynes are called intergendered where they feel they are one personality with a mixture of male and female traits and maintain a specific amount of each gender or have a more sliding scale of whether they feel more or less male or female at any one time.

Feel free to PM or reply to this post if you have any more questions. I also urge you to check out the resources found on this site, in the forums, and in the wiki. Best of luck on your journey and hopefully you'll share with us where your road takes you.

Marq and Mia

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 29, 2006, 08:50:19 AMthey adapt to situations by allowing traits from one or both personas to handle that situation optimally

I don't mean to take this thread off-topic but it's my understanding that all androgynes, bi-gendered and intergendered, have that adaptability. The only real difference is you're personas are separate while mine are fused. I think we need to be careful not to read too much into the wording of the idea. Only Chunk knows what that sentence specifically means.

I get the feeling that bi-gendered and intergendered don't quite get each other. This may make for a good round of threads. Hey, if we don't do the research who will?

Quote from: chunk on November 27, 2006, 06:13:53 PMGreetings.

I stumbled onto the term androgyne yesterday...found this site today. Perhaps I should have waited a few more weeks before posting rather then just post. Forgive me if I inadvertantly step on some toes in my excitement.

I have recently discovered this theory that most people strongly identify with being male or female...is that true? Sorry if I'm coming off as severely stupid but I always thought that was a phase people went through before they grew out of it.

How does one know if one is an androgyne (I hope I use the term correctly) rather then just socially enept? I always classed myself with ineptness socially or as having a severe lack of desire in the area of acting female...

I completely believe that people look at other people and do a quite male/female classification visually...I do too. But I assume that's just a visual thing and that everyone thinks of themselves as a human being. For example - "Look over there at that guy" or "I like her shoes". I always the last person to know someone's gay...or was a man.

I think(thought?) some people enjoy being male or female more...like they revel in the visuals, in playing a part... am I completely off base here?  Can someone please tell me what standard female thinking is? Whats the difference between being ...an androgyne and just not wanting to play the girl game? Thats all some woman do isn't it? Just choose to identify with the stereotype of being a woman?

Can someone clarify whats normal psychologically for someone who is female? I'd be happy with even some half-a**ed online test.

I'm finding this all hard to believe.

Chunk

Hi there Chunk! 

You hit the nail on the head. So many people are trying hard to 'identify' themselves by a particular gender and with a particular sex.
You are you are you and that never changes!
Striving to be 'normal' turns 'normal' into a self-perpetuating, self-fulfilling and ultimately meaningless concept.  Social norms should be the product of the members of society, not the other way around.  You ARE a part of society (regardless of how uncomfortable you may feel in it).

Live life, be YOURSELF! It is your duty; your social responsibility!  

I'll tell you what I like about myself, whatever gender I am.

I like my broad shoulders. Large muscular arms. Neck muscles.
I like my squarish face.
I like my pouty cute lips.
I like my piercing blue eyes.
I like my dark strong eyebrows.
I like my breasts.
I like my feet, I have great toes that are pedicured up nicely each month.
I like my small squarish man hands with french manicured nails on each finger.
I like the way my hair does what it feels like. Its deciding to go grey in places, sending strange stray hairs out at bizarre angles.
I like that I spent years carrying a wallet in my back pocket, always wore jeans, commented on nice looking woman, joked with the guys and endured the questions seriously asked if I was somehow male....and just laughed.
I like that I'm blind to gender. That I don't know who's gay, who's straight and who's into doing who.

Off the top of my head anyways.

Chunk

It is true that bigendered folk and intergendered folk don't always understand each other fully but I feel we can still appreciate everyones unique blend that makes them special. In order to appreciate our similarities, we must also embrace our differences.

Yeah there were a couple of lively debates in our topics I took much enjoyment of being involved in.

-Us

Chunk, that was a great post. It would make a neat thread.

Again, I can't tell you what you are. There are just too many ways of being in the middle. But I will tell you this. From what you've said so far androgyne does seem to fit.

When we talk about androgynes we're really talking about people who are psychologically androgynous. As I understand it, both from my own personal experience and the experiences of androgynes here and elsewhere, psychological androgyny is probably best and first characterized by the feeling that you're not exactly your assigned gender but you're not the opposite gender either. Some of it fits but some of it doesn't fit.

Asking an androgyne to make a choice between their male and female side is like asking them to choose between air and water. It's not that you can't live well without either water or air, it's that you can't live long without either. It's not that the androgyne can't function well without either the male or female side, it's that the androgyne can't really function without either the male or female side. Losing the male or female side isn't like losing an arm or a leg, it's like losing an entire half of your body.

Androgynes seem to share a duality of nature. Some feel like there are two people inside, others have felt like that but have since fused the two people into one, some use the concept of two people inside to explain their duality, and some may have always felt like just one person with male and female traits. But however that duality is manifested, the androgyne still feels a duality.

There are other things that androgynes may or may not have in common. I would imagine that androgynes would be more likely to have a gender other than male or female (man or woman) just *because* of that duality. Androgynes may or may not be gender blind or gender myopic. But I would consider these to be secondary characteristics.

Does that help any?

Edit: Oh yeah, and read Emerald's sticky on "What Is An Androgyne?" if you haven't already. It's really great.

I think what happened here for me is that I was introduced to a concept of neither male nor female, and also that sexual orientation is seperate from one's gender.

That really means that I can relax more, play around with the gender rules, continue using a wallet because it makes way more sense to me, etc. Its not like I really acted different, its just that I felt bad acting natural - if that makes any sense. I always would go back to being myself and then chastise myself for not dressing up more and being more girly. Now I realize that I'm free, that there is a huge range in gender, that I can shop in the mens section (never occurred to me), that I can do all kinds of things.

So who knows where I am on the range of gender and who cares. Lifes short - at least I found out at 40 instead of 41. 

This is quite fun actually. Its all good news. There was a moment where I panicked and wondered what people would think of me...then I realized that people probably already know and have been trying to tell me for years. Beside, where I live no one cares. So now its onto buying clothes that I like more, boots that kick ass and losing weight. I think I've been unconsciously hiding my body because its very womanly in the right places.  I wandered into the mens section yesterday - god the clothes are awesome.

I really appreciate the help. Especially with the obvious stuff that isn't so obvious to me.     Your patience is appreciated.

Chunk

Quote from: chunk on November 30, 2006, 09:29:39 PM
Its not like I really acted different, its just that I felt bad acting natural - if that makes any sense.

I can so relate to that. What we do when we act natural is so different to what society expects us do do. This conflict between us and soceties expectations is sometimes hard to deal with.

Quote
I always would go back to being myself and then chastise myself for not dressing up more and being more girly. Now I realize that I'm free, that there is a huge range in gender, that I can shop in the mens section (never occurred to me), that I can do all kinds of things.

So who knows where I am on the range of gender and who cares. Lifes short - at least I found out at 40 instead of 41. 

Good for you - I am glad you can be happy with who you are.


Alice

Quote from: chunk on November 30, 2006, 09:29:39 PM

That really means that I can relax more, play around with the gender rules

That's the spirit.  Have fun with it.

Life's hard, so you might as well give as good as you get.

That's a great attitude Chunk. I'm not there yet but I'm trying. I used to act different (and still do somewhat) because I felt bad acting natural. Eh, but now I get to have the fun of acting the way I feel.

I've been meaning to ask, earlier you said

Quoteoops, have to go, the husband is back. 

How much of all this does he know? I assume he knows how you dress and act. But how much does he know about what's going on inside?

Chunk,
It seems that people are divided by those who wish to identify as themselves and those who want others to identify them.
How someone identifies you does not define who you are, so I personally go with the former.  Works for me, I hope it will for you too. 

QuoteHow much of all this does he know?

Well I mentioned a few times recently that I found out there was a neutral sex and that I thought that it suited the way I felt. I'm not sure he heard me or found that comment any more weirder then usual.

Over the past eon of marriage he has heard me mentioning, sometimes rather loudly with much arm waving, that I feel neither male nor female...And that a vagina is a hell of a lot of work for someone like me....that I don't understand women.....that I could never be married to a woman ...or be a man for that matter because they have bizarre body parts that do strange things. Oh, and my personal favorite - I'm a man who's not entirely "trapped" inside a woman's body as its kind of fun from his perspective.

Guess I'll bring it up more distinctly in a week or two and see how he reacts.

Chunk