Hi,

sorry this thread gets a bit longer, but an FTM with transvestitic fetishism - well it's not that easy to explain.

Do you know that from cartoons, when you have a devil-yourself and an angel-yourself debating on your shoulders about what to do? I mean, female fetish clothes really turn you on when you wear them, and you are having an affair with a guy who loves seeing female fetish stuff on both guys and girls? And wears that stuff himself? And you feel like you want to wear some of that stuff in bed but you're a transguy and somehow think you may not let yourself go causeas it's associated with "female" and haven't worn any of those clothes in years for that reason? But you have that fetish, and it's even a very strong fetish you have had for decades?

Well, that's my situation right now.

Before my transition, I used to walk around in gothic style when I was in the mood. Means, my hair was long and died black, I wore black silk clothes then and nylon or fish-nets, all in black. And punk-like black combat boots with it. It looked hot as hell and it made me very horny to wear them, I must admit. It was female mode, but at least one version which seemed not totally pointless and annoying for me as it gave me some ... errr... joy. To say the least. I'm a lot into silk, nylons, fish-nets, black combat boots etc., they're a big turn-on for me. But I have not worn them for a couple of years as I'm in transition now and have had a kind of mental block against any female clothes since then. (Ok combat boots are not feminine, but I mean - all the rest.)

I have also always been into wearing "non-gendered" nylon stuff, pantyhose etc. I just love the way they feel when you wear them and feel someone stroking you or you stroke yourself. Great turn-on. Really big turn-on. You use 2 pairs of them, one on your upper body, you cut out the crotch so you can get your head through and dress with it like a long-sleeve T-shirt, and the other one you put on the way it is supposed to be put on and you cut out the crotch out or leave it the way it is or cut out part of the crotch, depending on what you want to do with it and where you want to be touched directly or not. It fully covered my body, I mean both pantyhoses overlapped. Plus of course this hides your tits which is a great plus. It's not beautiful, but it feels great. (Transsexual paranoia might have played a big role for the development of that particular fetish.)

I did this kind of things since age 18 and my partners were always okay with it. Later on, I found out that zentais exist, which look less improvised but are expensive ("skin-tight garments that cover the entire body" according to Wikipedia, usually made of nylon or spandex). Or you could buy catsuits, which I did, less expensive and less "stiff" material, but often unisize and looked stupid on me (I'm very small and they did not fit). I often used to masturbate while wearing nylon pantyhoses, often cut out in the crotch. Until a few years ago when I started the transition and just had a mental block against dressing in whatever is considered female.

But well, I am having an affair now with a single bi guy. Sex is great with him etc. He sees to see me completely as a guy and is sometimes even completely oblivious about my phyisical state:
- "Why don't you go to gay saunas?"
-"They'd throw me out."
- "Why that?"
- "Cause they'd say it smells like fish here." (harsh gay slang for "females are around here")
- "?"
- "I still have tits."
- "Gosh, I forgot that." (and he hit his head)

This was right after us having had sex, me undressed... So that's not the issue here, him seeing me as female or so. I think it works out as well even if we both wear some female stuff while having sex (which we haven't tried out yet). Our affair is like, he shows me his to-do-list of sexual things he has not tried out yet, I do the same, and we agree on what works for both of us. Plus he cooks me nice meals as I have a long travel to get to him and we have a good chat each time. He's a butcher, so he knows how to cook good meals and he makes great salads and I have picked a lot of good recipes from him yet.

Now he got his nylons a couple of days ago (and of course tried them out right away  ). And we agreed on having a nylon session. And the devil on my shoulders tells me yeah great, go ahead, whatever makes fun is okay. But the angel on my other shoulder tells me don't do that, you're a guy and guys don't wear nylon stuff. And especially transguys have to prove something there.

It's weird. I'm very inclined to follow the devil guy on my shoulders, and I will buy some nylon stuff the next couple of days before I'll meet that guy again to have a lot of fun with him as being touched etc. while wearing nylon is sexy as hell. But the "angel" is annoying. And the angel also always chases me away from getting female underwear etc. for sexual gratification in general or this kind of meetings though I think they're very sexy and it is a big turn-on for me to wear that stuff while masturbating. So altogether, I am looking forward to the nylon session with great joy, but somewhat nervous.

I also think it might be hot hot hot to dress as a woman for sex again, but my mental blocks are too strong to let myself go here at the moment.

Can anyone of you refer to these feelings?  And how do you deal with transsexuality trying to block out some of your fetishes?

I don't want my GID to interfere with my fetishes as I am a very hedonistic person. And I am both looking forward and fearing the "nylon date" with my affair (more first than latter). Oh, and I am no native speaker, so I might get some of the expressions wrong in this thread. Okay and maybe it's more a nylon fetish than a transvestitic fetishism i'm talking about (though I have some transvestitic fetishism too, dressing in sexy clothes and stuff).

I am there with you.  I am a long term fethead and attend the fet clubs here and love my PVC, straps, buckles and tight-laced corsets.  Before my "revelation", I identified as a dom woman.  Since then, I still love donning the gear and going out dressed to the nines.  Yes, it is an odd idea that I like going out in what is effectively drag, but I do.  I still feel like a man, just a dressed up one. 

Personally, if you have found your kink, you are lucky and should treat it with care.  I can see how it might make you think twice about it compromising your masculine identity, but I know a great many men, gay and straight, who love dressing up.

Do you go to the clubs or local munches?  If not, you might want to explore it.  You will find many similar-minded men. 

Just remember that you are a man and might want to stop feeling that you need to make a point of it.

Have fun!

Just think, if you were a cis man, you wouldn't be worrying about it - well maybe a little, but not like it undermines your identity as a man.  Men are into all kinds of kinky stuff!

Hi Papillon,

Thank you very much for your reply, and it's great to know I'm not the only transguy here who gets off on dressing up etc.

Quote from: Papillon on August 27, 2010, 05:53:12 PMI still feel like a man, just a dressed up one.

Oh yeah, that's the point. I used to have an affair/relationship (something in-between) with a straight & dominant, gentleman-type BDSM guy who was a lot into 20ies and 30ies women's underwear and also the usual female fetish stuff, it was about 10 years ago. He was a really nice guy, even (or especially) during sex.

I told him I was trans and what that meant, after he tried a few attempts at  "forced feminization" which just did not work. I told him I don't care about walking around in high-heels if that made him happy etc., but I felt very unhappy when he tried to teach me to walk like a real woman in them as it was like a flash-back from the sh*t I heard from my mom when I was a teenager, that I had to "stop walking like a man" etc. (which I "ignored" then but with lots of aggression). And that I was a man inside. And I used to trample around like a farmer even in high-heels without wanting to as I really wanted to please him at these moments and be sexy for him... And he was like, okay, I understand the issue here, you really think and walk etc. like a guy. Though this kind of stuff was generally a big fetish for him, teaching women how to move in a feminine sexy way etc., but it just did not work on me and seemed awkward, silly and non-erotic for him in my case. Well he had enough of other fetishes and kinks and so did I, so it was no big problem.

He understood or respected my trans issue right away and reacted very sensitively to the trans side of me. I still dressed up for him (that was no issue for me there, sexy female clothings are always worth to dress up with...), but it was like drag for me, and I told him that and asked him not to call me with anything female during our sessions as that turned me off. Neutral okay, female no. I could understand that it would be difficult to call me by male names as I looked female. And he got it right. I got into neutral mode there, hooray. Good guy. Well and if he got that right, my current affair also will get it right I think. Thanks for reminding me of that. Oh, the good old times...

Quote from: Papillon on August 27, 2010, 05:53:12 PMJust remember that you are a man and might want to stop feeling that you need to make a point of it.

You're so right. So absolutely right. I always tried to do this, even long before transition, and before transition, I never worried about running around in fetish drag. But somehow it's not that easy for me at the moment and I really want to get over that issue as it threatens to kill a bit of my sex life, and I don't want more of that to be inhibited by my gender dysphoria than what is absolutely unavoidable. Hell, life is short!

Quote from: elvistears on August 27, 2010, 06:11:52 PM
Just think, if you were a cis man, you wouldn't be worrying about it - well maybe a little, but not like it undermines your identity as a man.  Men are into all kinds of kinky stuff!

Well I don't know. I'm not a cisman, and my fetish kind of confuses me here. Also, when I read about diagnostic criteria for transsexualism and other things which might get mistaken for it, transvestitic fetishism came up. I read up what that meant and was like - ->-bleeped-<-, they clocked me and I'm not trans though I thought I was Then I went like, oh, wait a moment, they're talking about MTFs here.

And then I read on and they said FTMs very rarely have fetishes. Haha. So I knew them gatekeepers don't have a clue what's really going on here. Cause I know a couple of other transgendered individuals (males in female bodies) who are like that, having various fetishes, sometimes very strong ones.

Well anyway, I did not tell my gatekeeper/gender therapist I have that fetish, as I wanted to preserve some privacy. He asked me about my sex life and I basically said I do the usual normal stuff but prefer using a strap-on. Which is only about 10% of what I REALLY do  . I think my sexual life should not be told to him in all its facets so it does not get into a letter. As we need to show our written judgments here after a name change to quite a lot of bureaucratic institutions to get our names changed there. And it's none of their business to know what exactly I get off on. Well and what is in the letters often gets into the judgments word by word. And I don't want that to happen with something like a nylon fetish etc. I'm quite open about my kinks, but I want to keep at least a bit of control about mine outing myself in this respect. And it's no clerk's business to know what turns me on. And I think it's the same for many other trans people.

Which means the phenomenon of fetishistic FTMs will remain unknown to the shrinks etc. It's a vicious circle, of course.

sent you an email, FS

What I like (or what anyone else likes for that matter) in bed is nothing to do with your TG status. The only female clothes I have left are slutty ones for stuff like this or for clubbing Whatever floats your boat man. Personally I can't wait to be a few years on T and post top surgery so I can go ahead and be a proper cross dressing man when the mood takes me.

I don't think I have fetish about me wearing female clothes, but I must admit that sometimes when I'm presenting as female, I don't know I feel kinda sexy but defently not turned on by it. But my fetishes are kinda weird or just plain weird all out lol, I kinda like being called Mistress sometimes because I find it degrading and humilitating but yet kindly hot at the same time. But 99% of the time I prefer to be called Master. Now my bf, he says he's androgene (still can't spell it grr) but still iidenifies as male, he loves to wear female clothes it makes him content but all the same it does turn him on heh he even likes to be treated as a female. It works fine for me cause idk I think it's sexy when a guy dresses like a girl. But heh that's just me.

I would say that when it comes to sex, fetishes, and kink, what you do is your business and it shouldn't matter if your TG or what. If the person you are with is cool with it, go for it. But like with all fetishes, it's best to keep them in their place - that is, when fetishes spill over into regular life is really the only time the have the potential to be problematic. If you're not being productive in life and spending too much time in your fetish fantasy world, that could be a problem!

I think your reaction is a natural one. Even a regular guy could have an issue if something like wearing womens' clothing was a means to get off because all through his life he's been taught (by society basically) that it's "wrong" to have that behavior. It's society's constructs that we all have to deal with everyday just being something other than what is defined as "normal". What someone does behind closed doors with a consenting partner though is no one's business but those two people's.

Just a thought.

In your final example, you say the devil side tells you to do it, but the angel sides says not.

Could it be you have these two guys confused?

From what I read, it's the angel who's telling you to be really silly here.

And devil has all the fun as well

It is interesting that you respond in different ways to the terms "Mistress" and "Master". Raven.  Before my realisation, I would be Mistress.  No two ways about it.  Since unsupressing it all one would think that I would naturally swap to being a dom guy and be Master.  Nope.  I have become quite seriously sub. And love it.  Happily, may partner is switch so it isn't a big deal.  But I just thought it was an interesting (and totally unexpected) development.  It is almost as though I couldn't afford to be dominated when I grudgingly identified as female, but now I can.

Has anyone else found themselves switching sides?

I've thought about the possibility of having a transvestitic fetish myself. I love dressing in hyper-feminine clothing like sexy dresses, it kinda turns me on and I love the attention I get for looking hot. The thing is, just dressing in regular, everyday women's clothing makes me dysphoric, but dressing up all fancy-like doesn't.
It doesn't turn me on a whole lot, but it certainly gets me in the mood.

Hi,

I was gone for the week-end, visiting a friend of mine who had fallen down the stairs and broken a couple of ribs, one clavicle plus her breast bone. All this while trying to clean her attic two weeks ago. Ouch. Well, at least, nothing worse happened and she's healing well and can kind of move and laugh again. So I'll respond to your comments all in one posting.

Quote from: Jeatyn on August 28, 2010, 07:56:16 AM
What I like (or what anyone else likes for that matter) in bed is nothing to do with your TG status. The only female clothes I have left are slutty ones for stuff like this or for clubbing Whatever floats your boat man. Personally I can't wait to be a few years on T and post top surgery so I can go ahead and be a proper cross dressing man when the mood takes me.

I think you're right, but this confused me a lot a couple of years ago and made me hesitate about transitioning as I was afraid it meant I might feel like a woman. And I just made a huge bow around this kink/fetish for a while after starting to transition as it put me in a very weird mood then when I tried it, not sexy at all. In every-day life, I see myself mostly as male, and I did not get along with that for a while.

To be completely honest, I also read about " ->-bleeped-<-" while getting information about trans stuff years ago. And I was like, well now I know how what I feel like sometimes is called, it was not just female clothing which turned me on.  ->-bleeped-<- is a fetish and means, when you're in the mood, you think you'd look hot in a female shape though you have a male shape, but in your mind, you're generally a guy. That is the case for me, just that I actually HAD a female shape and had been born female, and still have female junk. And in every-day life, this rather p*ssed me off than pleased me (it's gotten a lot better since on T, and I ignore my junk being wrong as well as I can). Just wonder what silly theory Bailey would develop based on cases such as mine? 

Quote from: Raven on August 28, 2010, 11:42:11 AM
I don't think I have fetish about me wearing female clothes, but I must admit that sometimes when I'm presenting as female, I don't know I feel kinda sexy but defently not turned on by it. But my fetishes are kinda weird or just plain weird all out lol, I kinda like being called Mistress sometimes because I find it degrading and humilitating but yet kindly hot at the same time. But 99% of the time I prefer to be called Master. Now my bf, he says he's androgene (still can't spell it grr) but still iidenifies as male, he loves to wear female clothes it makes him content but all the same it does turn him on heh he even likes to be treated as a female. It works fine for me cause idk I think it's sexy when a guy dresses like a girl. But heh that's just me.

It's spelled androgyne.

Now that "being called mistress as a kinky humiliation" thing sounds very interesting, as there is some double irony behind it. Nice to hear I'm not the only one here who is into stuff which is ironic in the second degree, or at least works in the second degree (e. g. I fancy myself as being a guy with male junk fantasizing about myself having female junk, so I can masturbate without "crashing"). Ironic is not quite the right expression, but I hope you know what I mean. I wonder if this just happens to be fetishes or if it's more frequent for trans people to "bypass" the dysphoria by developing such fetishes working in the second degree.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 28, 2010, 12:21:30 PM
I would say that when it comes to sex, fetishes, and kink, what you do is your business and it shouldn't matter if your TG or what. If the person you are with is cool with it, go for it. But like with all fetishes, it's best to keep them in their place - that is, when fetishes spill over into regular life is really the only time the have the potential to be problematic. If you're not being productive in life and spending too much time in your fetish fantasy world, that could be a problem!

You're absolutely right, though spending too much time in a "usual" sex fantasy world is as bad as spending time in a fetish fantasy world or in World of Warcraft etc. Another thing about fetishes, you can ruin them by wearing that stuff all the time. Almost happened to me with black leather.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 28, 2010, 12:21:30 PMI think your reaction is a natural one. Even a regular guy could have an issue if something like wearing womens' clothing was a means to get off because all through his life he's been taught (by society basically) that it's "wrong" to have that behavior. It's society's constructs that we all have to deal with everyday just being something other than what is defined as "normal". What someone does behind closed doors with a consenting partner though is no one's business but those two people's.

You're absolutely right here. However, I have few if any inhibitions for my other kinks & fetishes, it's just the female ones I am struggling with now.

Quote from: spacial on August 28, 2010, 12:55:02 PM
Just a thought.
In your final example, you say the devil side tells you to do it, but the angel sides says not.
Could it be you have these two guys confused?
From what I read, it's the angel who's telling you to be really silly here.

I don't know. Interesting thought though. For me personally, my "angel and devil" metaphoric does not refer so much to what is good and bad, but to what breaks rules and what keeps rules - angel = order, devil = chaos. Might be a cultural thing, I grew up and live in Germany and Germans are not evil or anything, nice people they are, but they also sure are a lot into rules and respecting authorities as many things just work better when everyone follows their duty without doubting. Which is what makes Germany so effective, though the Germans have become somewhat more slobby/relaxed here in the past decades.

But at the same time, I am also an immigrants' child. One parent coming from a progressive, hedonistic culture which is extremely proud of its rebellion against authorities (French Revolution) and breaking or ignoring rules in general if you think they are not okay is considered normal and even patriotic there. The other parent coming from a conservative, but multi-cultural country where rebellion against dictatorships, direct democracy and direct democratic elements are what mostly form the history and identity of this nation (Switzerland), and with strong French roots as well in my parent's case. And Swiss people of all cultures tend to respect and adhere to their laws a lot as they can influence them a lot themselves. Two neighboring countries but with a very different mentality from Germany, which is why these mentalities don't harmonize well, and I'm somehow torn in-between here in general...

Well I think the angel-devil-metaphor in my case here refers more to this than to being good and evil. Thank you for pointing at this metaphor, it helped me get some things clear here for myself which I was not well aware before.

Quote from: Papillon on August 28, 2010, 02:15:38 PM
Has anyone else found themselves switching sides?

Not quite that, I still switch, but other things have changed. Mainly bondage fraction here, some D/S play, no flagellation - hell no, I have urticaria, last thing I need on earth is an "allergic" reaction to floggers etc., and I don't want to inflict this on other people either as it feels me feel itchy then. The BDSM interest has decreased somehow since transition. Before, I was a lot into rope and stuff while having sex. One of the reasons was I love teasing and orgasm delays and this just harmonizes well with ropes etc. as sometimes it can get difficult to control yourself if the teasing goes on for a while so being bound is practical here - or having your partner bound. Teasing etc. is sexy anyway as you have more time having fun and it makes orgasms much more intense. And I'm still into that, but this preference has decreased.

It also served other functions related to my body dysphoria which are not necessary any more. It helped me get over my dysphoria obstacles during sex as this kind of play made me so horny that after a while I didn't care at all about what my body looks like as I wanted an orgasm so much. It also helped myself to relax/resignate mentally when I was bound cause when I felt awkward about my body not being alright, I could "do nothing about it" anyway. Or I bound and teased my partner which is fun anyway, and I had complete control over him/her not ever getting into touch with those of my body parts which reminded me what kind of body I had (basically the breasts).

Now with physical transition going on I've seen my new sex dates treat me as a guy though I still have all my female hardware, but testo made its effect so the software is more male than female now - body shape etc. (a few of my dates before managed to do this without testo, but it's a lot easier to find such people now, plus I feel more comfortable with my body). Which makes me get more into other various stuff which is less related to my dysphoria or to work-arounds designed to cope with the dysphoria. Or at least related to that in other ways. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to complain about my dysphoria-related kinks & fetishes, they're absolutely okay for me.

Quote from: Yakshini on August 29, 2010, 12:13:40 AM
I've thought about the possibility of having a transvestitic fetish myself. I love dressing in hyper-feminine clothing like sexy dresses, it kinda turns me on and I love the attention I get for looking hot. The thing is, just dressing in regular, everyday women's clothing makes me dysphoric, but dressing up all fancy-like doesn't.
It doesn't turn me on a whole lot, but it certainly gets me in the mood.

It was exactly the same for me as well. Every-day female clothing did not work for me (and I did not wear much of that in my life). Fancy female stuff worked. It either had to look almost like dressed for carnival, exaggerated, and in these case it was supposed to mean: "this is a costume, it's not me." And then it was funny to dress that way, but no turn-on. Knuckle-long green dresses etc. Most people didn't get it though. And a couple of times I risked being beaten up on the streets as I was mistaken for a ->-bleeped-<-.

The other version was dressing hot (hot for my taste), and I chose gothic style for that. Of course, the more often you wear things which turn you on, the more they lose their effect over time.

Quote from: Papillon on August 28, 2010, 02:15:38 PM
Has anyone else found themselves switching sides?

Yes.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but I see myself as a switch. Previous to my realizations about gender, I saw myself only as a potential dom even though I had lots of sub-focused fantasies, because I was too uncomfortable with the idea of being female and submissive. I still am--and I think it has to do with the oppressive socialization that women need to be submissive, demure and passive that I deeply internalized, even if I didn't believe it. It was a pretty big trauma to me.

Now that I've accepted that I'm not a woman, I can act out fantasies where I'm submissive--and explicitly male. Or, I can be dominant in a male, female, or neutral persona. My partner calls me his drag queen when I'm all decked out in high heels and lipstick, which really makes me feel good and able to do these things that before I perceived as a threat to my identity.

brainiac, I think it is exactly this.  That being a sub female for a transman is the ultimate discomfort in that it multiplies the aspects of female identity that we have found difficult to deal with.  I have never been comfortable watching any woman being dominated.  It just doesn't sit well with me.

But I can now be happily be sub.  It doesn't threaten my status at all.  But I can still dress in my femdom clothes and be a drag queen too, as you can.  That is also fun.  But I am definitely playing a part.  That one is not me but a fun role.

Ah!  The complexities and wonders of human sexuality!