My gender therapist once asked me that:

"What kind of man do you want to be?"

And I was like - WTF does he mean by that? 

Oddly, I've never been asked this by anyone else than gender therapists. I've asked other trans people what they thought about that question and whether their therapist asked them that question (replace man with woman for the MTFs). Some said yes, their therapist asked them that, some said no. Some said they could relate to that question and give a clear answer to it, some said no.

Okay so I told him I did not get the point of that question, as I did not want to "become a certain kind of man" but have a body that suits my mind. Then he asked me how I liked to see myself and how I wanted to be in a couple of years, and I said - I want to be less of a messy person when dealing with paper stuff, be more mentally stable and mature of course, also less resentful than I used to be and be better at keeping secrets other people told me. Oh, and I wanted to become better at keeping appointments, and more punctual. My therapist seemed confused about my answer. Well I got the letter for T anyway.

Can anyone of you explain to me what my therapist might have had in mind when asking me this?
And can you relate to this kind of questions?
And were you ever asked this question, and if yes, only by therapists or also by other people?

it strikes me a little bit like a 'who are you/what do you want' question. which is something i ask myself all the time.   it is also something i ask other people to see if they thought about it themselves.
the followup question where he(i assume ) like said: 'how I liked to see myself and how I wanted to be in a couple of years'.  thats one of the points i think, what do you think about the future. where do you want to be.

i think its a great question. and i dont think anybody at the hospital ever asked me that.

I dislike the question also.

The only person to ask me that was someone online.  It annoyed me no end.

I guess my problem with that question is that it seems like the person asking has this idea that we want to become men, not that we are men, and that we strive to be a certain kind of man, rather than just being ourselves, which is male.

Kind of like I admire athletic men, so I want to transition and become an athlete.  Or, I admire sophisticated suave men, and I want to be a snappy dresser and woo the ladies with fine wines and dining.  Or, I love sports and want to become on of the guys and go crazy at football games.  I mean, seriously, WTF?

I am me.  I am male.  And now that I am perceived as male, I'm still just me.  And male.  And I'm a short, sensitive, fun, laid back, kind, gentle, regular guy.  I'm not a manly man.  Maybe I'm just dense and don't get the question.  Maybe I don't know what kinds of men there are.  Men are everything from rednecks to priests, from ->-bleeped-<-s to compassionate doctors.


Jay

Quote from: augie on September 02, 2010, 07:12:31 AMi think its a great question. and i dont think anybody at the hospital ever asked me that.[/color]

I think this question is great as long as you don't boil it down to gender stuff and nothing else. As we have officially only two genders, not dozens or hundreds, so it's silly to ask this, as being a "man" or "woman" does not mean that much.

Like if you were asked: "What kind of US citizen do you want to be?"

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 02, 2010, 07:56:26 AM
I think this question is great as long as you don't boil it down to gender stuff and nothing else. As we have officially only two genders, not dozens or hundreds, so it's silly to ask this, as being a "man" or "woman" does not mean that much.

Like if you were asked: "What kind of US citizen do you want to be?"

i agree.  it shouldent really be used for anything. but for gaining a little insight it can be nice.

and i wouldent want to be any sort of US citizen.   then i would actualy have to pay for my surgeries and such  hurray for norway 

Well I often tended to have that kind of culture clash with my therapist. But it was also, I grew up between two cultures, one of which is very strict and the other one more laid-back about female and male gender roles. And straight guys from my home country often get read as "gay" in the country where I'm living, cause of their clothing and gesture etc. (Frenchmen in Germany). But as soon as Germans find out it's a Frenchman, they tend to "dis-gay" him as they know about this effect. And many of the things which are "typically male" where I grew up - Germany - just seem weird in my home country - France - (talking about cars for hours etc.). And yes, it's even normal for butchy French males even in their teenage years to talk for hours about tasty food and how that was prepared to be tasty, which spices were used and how it was cooked - I experienced that during a students' exchange. Don't ask me what impression visibly gay French guys make in Germany... they just seem extremely flaming here.

And a lot of Germans who spent their vacations in France told me of that effect, that French guys often seemed gay to them... gestures, behavior, topics of interest etc. They talked a lot about food and clothes, their mannerisms were quite feminine for German tastes etc. Sometimes they first thought they had come to a gay pub and it took them a while to find out that it was just what Frenchmen were like, and it was no gay pub at all. You don't wanna know what a French gay pub is like.

So try to get that kind of weird questions sorted out with a German therapist who works as a gatekeeper and has not grown up between different cultures... it's not that easy. These questions are WTF anyway, but they even get more ridiculous when you have grown up between two cultures, one of which being seen as "sissy" from the other side's perspective. Like, I like to talk about food and how to prepare it a lot and never about cars. No, it does not mean I'm a girl.

And then this therapist comes up with this stupid question. AAARGH!!!

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 02, 2010, 07:56:26 AM
Like if you were asked: "What kind of US citizen do you want to be?"

But still, this is assuming that you currently have no life.

I want to be the kind of citizen that I  AM ALREADY.

I guess the question is okay if you are unhappy with your life and want something different.  I've been pretty much happy with my life, just not my gender.


Jay

I think "Everyone" should get asked that question. Just with the word "Person" instead of man/woman.

My answer would be "A good man" or "An honorable man".
Maybe "An intelligent one".

I imagine this question is useful for people who previously depended on gender roles a lot to define who they wanted to be.  Now, I'm right with everyone else on feeling like I would have answered "the kind I already am!", but in imagining what I would have said, say, when I was 13 and first started considering that I might be trans, I think it would have gotten me questioning a lot of what my family/religious community told me about who I would be when I grew up.  Like Miniar said, that's when I asked myself very similar, ungendered questions, but, for me, my answers were also ungendered.  I can just imagine that for someone on whom the religious indoctrination worked, they would have imagined their whole future in the gender they were assigned at birth and might need a prompt to re-plan things in the gender they live as later if there are strict gender roles in their part of society.  (And I agree that in some parts of the US, the gender roles are so different that a lot of people would have to re-work their plans for the future like that.)  IDK, that's my only idea for why therapists seem to like that question. . .

Quote from: Ilan Reshon on September 03, 2010, 09:56:43 AMI can just imagine that for someone on whom the religious indoctrination worked, they would have imagined their whole future in the gender they were assigned at birth and might need a prompt to re-plan things in the gender they live as later if there are strict gender roles in their part of society.  (And I agree that in some parts of the US, the gender roles are so different that a lot of people would have to re-work their plans for the future like that.)  IDK, that's my only idea for why therapists seem to like that question. . .

I think you are right here. Or replace religious indoctrination with special cultures, subcultures etc. I must also say that my therapist was in his mid 60ies then, so it might also have been a matter of generations. This whole thing just doesn't make much sense for someone who grew up between two cultures with very different gender expectations, and in a liberal and progressive surrounding.

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 02, 2010, 06:59:36 AM
My gender therapist once asked me that:

"What kind of man do you want to be?"

And I was like - WTF does he mean by that? 

I am pretty certain I know where this came from.

A lot of these therapists work to a set of proceedures. They present a point and look at the response. The response is then put into one of a list of categories.

It's a bit like these personality tests, the questions are leading, the answers restrictive and the responses are guaged aganst a standard chart.

Another is the InkBlot test where you are expeced to notice certain things, usually to do with phallis' or female shape. If you don't this is taken as significant. (I particualrly recall this as, when I was 10, I was shown some of these. I saw what was suppose to be there but was too embarrassed to say).

I think what the therapist was looking for were signs of vicarious ambition. That you wanted to emulate a particualr person or a type of person. This might be seen as unhealthy. Whereas, if you responded with something along the lines of the best man I can be, that might have been taken as a positive. If you responded with, I am a man, but my body is wrong, that might have been taken as indicating some element of dilusion about your inner self.

The problem is, we think of these people as being some sort of professionals. In reality, they are just the modern equivalent of the Jesuits, looking for the modern equivalent of heritics.

Just a big game really.

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 04:21:32 AM
I am pretty certain I know where this came from.

A lot of these therapists work to a set of proceedures. They present a point and look at the response. The response is then put into one of a list of categories.

It's a bit like these personality tests, the questions are leading, the answers restrictive and the responses are guaged aganst a standard chart.

Another is the InkBlot test where you are expeced to notice certain things, usually to do with phallis' or female shape. If you don't this is taken as significant. (I particualrly recall this as, when I was 10, I was shown some of these. I saw what was suppose to be there but was too embarrassed to say).

I think what the therapist was looking for were signs of vicarious ambition. That you wanted to emulate a particualr person or a type of person. This might be seen as unhealthy. Whereas, if you responded with something along the lines of the best man I can be, that might have been taken as a positive. If you responded with, I am a man, but my body is wrong, that might have been taken as indicating some element of dilusion about your inner self.

The problem is, we think of these people as being some sort of professionals. In reality, they are just the modern equivalent of the Jesuits, looking for the modern equivalent of heritics.

Just a big game really.

Thanks for your posting. You may be right here, as he also asked a couple of other weird questions. Well at least I told him I did not get what he meant with this question. There's a transsexual self-help group here, they know him well, and I went there and asked about that question too. And they went like - the question was serious as one had to figure out as what kind of man one wants to live before transition as there's many different kinds of men and women. I found this explanation just as weird to say the least and wondered if they had been brain-washed by the medical system or if it was just me who got it wrong. But then again, I never wanted to be part of a group but just myself, I'm too much of an individualist for that.

With respect to that group, they probably want to avoid the realisation that most of these therapists are just a bunch of quacks.

Societies all over the world have come to place so much faith in these people. Courts even take notice. We expect them to relieve us of the pain that comes with living. Much like the medival people in Europe, were led to believe that if they accepted the nonsense and crap they would get a better life afterward.

The real product of medicine comes from the practical. Surgery and carefully managed drug therapy. The rests just a filter that we have to go through to get to the real stuff.

Here in the UK it is frequently said that GPs are there to decide who gets to see the real Drs.

It's ture that many people with severe anxiety can achieve a lot of relief from therapy. The right therapist, with some intelegence and an open mind. But what is really happening is people with these types of anxiety have put up barriers to their own relaities.

I recall a case study I read once where a woman was petrified of being raped. Eventually she realised that she had had fanticies of being molested by some huge trucker and enjoyed it. This went against what she had believed, that every rape is an offense against all women, (which, of course it is). Once she faced up to these fantasies, she was able to understand that, in fantasy, we are in control. There is no harm nor shame nor rules in fantasy.

But I digress. You are an intelegent young man. What you need to do with this therapist is understand what he is looking for and give it to him. Once he is satisfied, he will let you through the next gate, so to speak.

But I strongly suggest you be careful not to let him know you can see right through him. That will damage his ego and make him angry. These types, when they get angry, revert to their gate keep mode. Try to build a relationship with him. Trun on some charm. Show some impression when he says something clever sounding.

And remember, when you get cornered, just say, 'Wow, I never thought about it like that'. That buys you some time. But you then need to remember the statement, however vacuous it was and think of a constructive response.

If he will let you, take notes. Alternatively, get yourself one of those digital voice recorders. I have one and never go to any power people without it.

Quote from: sneakersjay on September 02, 2010, 07:45:07 AM
I dislike the question also.

The only person to ask me that was someone online.  It annoyed me no end.

I guess my problem with that question is that it seems like the person asking has this idea that we want to become men, not that we are men, and that we strive to be a certain kind of man, rather than just being ourselves, which is male.

This seems to be the dominant response...I find it a little confusing, though. Boys and men get asked this question (and others along the same theme) all the time. It's just part of the Western cultural narrative of manhood as an achievement rather than a birthright, of masculinity as an ongoing performative process. It would be odd if trans guys were never asked this sort of thing. It's not a sign that you're being regarded as female - only someone seen as male would be asked it.

Thank you for your answer, I agree with you again.

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 06:13:39 AM
With respect to that group, they probably want to avoid the realisation that most of these therapists are just a bunch of quacks.

I think so too. It makes me feel very weird to think that this support group lacks so much empowerment - but then, there are lots of trans people who feel good being there and the group is not awful in each respect. They can give good tips etc. and make a pretty decent job at that. That group is just better suited for people who are a rather more despondent and unsecure and need like authorities and groups to adhere to. Not my cup of tea.

I have nothing in personal against that therapist, it's just that... well he is the way he is, old-school therapist from the psychoanalytical school, with the according convictions, and so are most other therapists, so I just went there to get the §&%$ paper for T. I haven't been to him for about 1,5 years now, however, so I don't have to deal with that stuff any more. It's just, sometimes things still keep popping up in my mind from these therapy sessions like very bad memories, I'm still processing this weirdness. The therapist was a lot into the gender roles topic, which is kind of outdated in the beginning of the 21st century. Like, I don't know, having been in therapy for being gay in the 60ies, might have had the same effect with very silly questions etc.

It seemed to me that the average person in my surroundings understood way better what being trans is in my case than the therapist even though I tried to explain it to him. ("You have a female body with a guy's mind in it plus a male inner body map and of course this sucks" versus "You want to swap gender roles as you prefer the male gender role in this society and identify with being a man.") But God knows what esoteric psychoanalytical theories he adhered to concerning that topic, he never told me that. 

A friend of mine (MTF) told me once: "I never thought I'd need therapy, but I had to go to the gender therapist for the papers. The whole transition was easy, the hard part of it was really just the gatekeeping and the weird convictions and attitudes of the therapists. But after gender therapy, I really thought I need therapy to get over the bullsh*t I had to deal with during gender therapy cause that drove me nuts." She also told me it would be difficult for her to ever go to therapy for whatever problems in the future due to the awkward gender therapy.

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 06:13:39 AMBut I digress. You are an intelegent young man. What you need to do with this therapist is understand what he is looking for and give it to him. Once he is satisfied, he will let you through the next gate, so to speak.

Thanks for your compliments. I actually did that. Plus I also deliberately added some diverging spice into it so that it did not become too obvious that I just served him what he wanted to hear. Not too smooth and neat, so to say. Still, I felt uneasy during the therapy sessions as I wanted hormones and knew he could block that. Most of the gender stuff and insecurities which I really had to deal with, I talked about it with other people and kept away from him.

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 06:13:39 AMBut I strongly suggest you be careful not to let him know you can see right through him. That will damage his ego and make him angry. These types, when they get angry, revert to their gate keep mode. Try to build a relationship with him. Trun on some charm. Show some impression when he says something clever sounding.

That's exactly what I did. Hell, I'm not stupid and I'm a very good liar, too. I also got information in advance so I knew how to avoid the worst esoteric nonsense just in case, such as ink blot tests etc. (which he actually never did). Plus, I built a relationship by talking to him about other problems I had at that time, non-gender related ones too (e. g. my parents had a very bad sick building syndrome at that time etc.). Though I never actually felt like talking to him about such problems, I mean, I'd rather throw out the carpet instead of talking etc. I also prefer to choose myself whom I disclose what... Well at least I could choose which problems I'd disclose and talk about to him. And he loved being able to "help" me there, this was how I "won" him. And to show him I'm not only focused on my gender stuff and don't expect it to solve all my problems. All the while keeping the really "interesting" stuff away from him. Sometimes it was very difficult to come up with a "therapy-suited-problem" for him.

It was all like a cat-and-mouse play for me, very awkward. I must add, being forced to confide private or intimate things to a person in power is really a huge trigger for me, otherwise it would not have been so bad for me. Throw me in a dark closet with dozens of serpents and spiders, and I don't care, but that... holy sh*t. Plus, for a name change here, you need two therapists' letters, and these also include things like sexual orientations and practices, how you feel about your genitals and having a period etc. Some of that stuff will be mentioned in the court decision paper, and this is precisely the paper you have to show to get your other stuff changed. So much about privacy.   

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 06:13:39 AMAnd remember, when you get cornered, just say, 'Wow, I never thought about it like that'. That buys you some time. But you then need to remember the statement, however vacuous it was and think of a constructive response.

Haha, I actually did that quite a lot. I also kept notes of the therapy sessions

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 06:13:39 AMIf he will let you, take notes. Alternatively, get yourself one of those digital voice recorders. I have one and never go to any power people without it.

Very good idea, that. Gotta buy me one of these.

You'll be fine Fencesitter.

Sorry to have referred to you as young. Perhaps I was just meaning young at heart.

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 11:31:31 AM
You'll be fine Fencesitter.

Sorry to have referred to you as young. Perhaps I was just meaning young at heart.

I'm in my mid 30ies now. I was in my beginning 30ies when dealing with that therapist.

I don 't know how old you are, but your advices are wise.

Sorry again Fencesitter. I'm 55.

30s is young. I recently heard someone say, You aren't old till you hear your joints click!

I thought you may be older when you made a reference to having therapy in the 60s. I was sure, from other postings, that you were in your 20s or 30s.

Quote from: spacial on September 04, 2010, 06:00:55 PM
Sorry again Fencesitter. I'm 55.

30s is young. I recently heard someone say, You aren't old till you hear your joints click!

I thought you may be older when you made a reference to having therapy in the 60s. I was sure, from other postings, that you were in your 20s or 30s.

That's fine with me. I'm in my mid 30ies and though it's not such a mature age, I don't feel like I need a gender therapy to help me get along with my life. I may still be comparabily young, but I don't want to deal with official gender therapy more than what's necessary for the LETTERS. The reference to the 60ies is cause I read up a lot about sex and gender therapies and the history behind it and what LGBT people went through then, was not much better or at least more professional than what trans people are confronted with nowadays. I'm just a nerd so I read up lots of stuff, but I'm not very old.

Unfortunately, I already hear my joints click and even CAN make them click to freak friends out  . I love that noise. And I love how it freaks them out. But then, I could make them click since teenage years. Jaws etc. And enjoyed freaking out friends with that noise as well. So much about joints and maturity.

You know what... In re-word that and you've got the question I have ALWAYS asked myself. I guess what your therapist meant to do was make you look into your life as identifying as a man -- Like for me... I WANT to be The best man I really can be... I don't want to be a guy who comes off as gay, but someone you can talk to... *I don't hate gays >:I   Mum said I did* .... I want to treat everyone as a MAN should, and I want to bring the male gender back to it's past glory of Chivalry and Romance. *nod Nod*


<3 Alun