I apologize in advance if this post gets lengthy. I'm just really struggling with this issue lately and I don't really have anywhere else to turn. Thanks if you read it all.

I'm 20. I am very masculine in dress/appearance but a bit feminine in personality. I like sports, aviation, the military, and mostly guy stuff, but I'm very sensitive and nurturing. I someday want to have a husband/partner and adopt kids. (I have no desire to carry a child) I am having serious difficulty figuring out whether I want to live the rest of my life as a masculine woman or a trans guy.

The family members that I'm out to are very against me transitioning. I know that my life would probably be easier if I stay a heterosexual girl. But I don't know how to figure out if that's me or not. I like to bind, I like being mistaken for a man, I like to pack, I want to try "topping" a guy, and I like being percieved as half of a gay couple. I've dated a handful of gay guys and all those relationships have ended because they couldn't deal with me having to go back and forth between names/genders depending on who we were around. I like being Konnor, but I'm afraid I will lose my family and never find a man who loves me if I am Konnor.

I am also not sure if I would be happy living the rest of my life as I am now...kind of in between genders. It just seems like a huge hassle, to have a different name/gender depending on who I am around and who knows me as who. I would really be happy being a masculine person with no gender, but society really makes it so that you have to pick one. But I don't know which one to pick...

I guess I'm just asking if anyone has any advice or feels this way. I have been seeing a therapist for years, so I'm ok on that front. She just keeps telling me to be myself and the gender stuff will work itself out. But it really seems like it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue in my mind, instead of working itself out. How do I figure out who the heck I am? 

Honestly...what you're therapist said is pretty close to what I would say. It's not as if there is a solid line between masculine female and FTM. It's a big gray area of gender identity/expression.

Quote from: konman on September 10, 2010, 06:52:44 PMI am having serious difficulty figuring out whether I want to live the rest of my life as a masculine woman or a trans guy.

I am too.  I've also been seeing a therapist and she says I present as clearly trans and she'll write me a note if I ask, but I'm still not 100% sure.  More like 90% at this point.  I like to bind and be seen as male, but transitioning is such a big thing.  I've only been actively researching for about a year, but I'm already frustrated that I haven't come to a definite decision yet. 

So I can't really offer any advice since I'm in pretty much the same place.  But I have just found a nearby trans group that I'm going to try to go to.  Maybe that would help, if you don't already have an offline group?

I think you just need to be yourself.  Don't force yourself to fit into any box that society deems you need to be in.

As for the name thing ... how about you choose a gender neutral name?  Or what says you change to male name and pronoun but don't transition?  No one says there is a set way of doing things.  Sometimes if we stop thinking about ourselves and just live our lives how we want things just come together.

Personally, I have lived most of my life as a masculine/butch lesbian ... and be okay with it .. but since I made the decision to be my true self ... male ... I have been super ecstatic ... my depression has lifted.  That being said...everyone is different and I don't think anyone should feel like they have to be pushed into a box.   

i had this after reading dirts blogs and it really screwed my head up for a while. I dont think anyone is 100% sure they are doing the right thing but i waited til i was 38 for a few reasons and that wait has made me realise that what i'm doing is right for me. Like a few others have said- take away the boxes other people try to put you in and live the life you want. I know its easier in some ways at my age when you have less people who have a say in your life but if necessary only go so far along the journey until you feel comfortable taking it any further or decide that youve reached the place you want to be. For me its a direct choice between losing the female body so i can be the person in my head or carry on living a lie and pretending that the body defines me but its not always that simple.

I can relate to this.  I'm at the point where I've taken away the boxes and it still seems complicated and confusing.  But I have noticed that the more I face my gender issues openly and directly, the happier I am.  For me, it seems that just doing something about it makes a big difference, no matter what the outcome.

As others have said, it's all about being yourself.  And I don't think there is necessarily much of a difference between being ftm and being a masculine woman - it depends on what those things mean to you and how you want to describe yourself to other people.  I don't think there's a set definition for any of these labels.  I mean that within reason, you get to make up your own rules.  Just go with what comes naturally to you, and find the right term for it later.

I feel similar.  Sometimes I'm 100% positive that transitioning is the best thing for me and that I can't get on T soon enough, then sometimes I'm terrified I might be making a huge mistake.  I'm just trying to take it slow right now.  I know life would be a lot less complicated if I don't transition.  My therapist keeps telling me I need to get on T as soon as possible and my mom keeps trying to convince me that I'm just going through a phase and that I'll ruin my life if I transition.  So I'm feeling a bit torn.

Quote from: Kvall on September 10, 2010, 08:06:02 PMI realize that doesn't help when you don't know yet if you're "male gendered" or "female gendered" or something else. But that is a wholly subjective thing, and it's something that comes easily to some but others struggle to get a grasp on.

The fact that it's subjective, and different for everyone, is what I was trying to emphasize.  Also, having a gender that doesn't match your body does not mean you have to transition.  Whether or not you transition is a personal choice.  For many, transitioning is the best course of action, but it's not for everyone.  And for people who choose not to transition, maybe "masculine woman" could be an appropriate term to use to help people understand.  Labels never fit anyway.

Quote from: konman on September 10, 2010, 06:52:44 PM
I like to bind, I like being mistaken for a man, I like to pack, I want to try "topping" a guy, and I like being percieved as half of a gay couple.

I feel like you pretty much answered your own questions here.  There's no question that your gender identity is male, and if you compromise on that front you will never be happy.  Your family may come around and accept you (if they love you, they will).  However, you will never "come around."  This is one of those things I suggest you continue to pursue, because as those around you see how much happier you are, they will come to terms with it as well.

You can be whoever you want when you transition, being sensitive and nurturing isn't all that rare in guys.

As far as being with another man goes, there will most definitely be men who are interested in you.  I get hit on 4x as much by gay men as I do by straight women, and judging from your profile picture, you will be getting hit on a lot.

You can give it time and allow others to come around on their own.  If you transition, I promise you'll hit a point where you yourself will no longer be content having to switch who you are around certain people, and you will step up and work the issue out yourself.  I would hate to see you stop pursuing something so important to your long-term happiness because of the short-term discomfort of those around you!

Quote from: Quicksand on September 10, 2010, 09:10:16 PM
I feel like you pretty much answered your own questions here.  There's no question that your gender identity is male, and if you compromise on that front you will never be happy. 

I disagree with this. It's possible to enjoy/want those things without a male gender identity.

Quote from: Nygeel on September 10, 2010, 09:27:35 PM
I disagree with this. It's possible to enjoy/want those things without a male gender identity.

You're right, I didn't really think about that statement enough, and I shouldn't make such broad generalizations.  But when I look at his entire situation, I feel like this indicates that transitioning would be a positive thing for him.

What @Rob and @Alexmakenoise said are a lot of what I would say.

There are other FTMs who swear up and down that happiness was not attainable until they went through with transition and lived their lives as male only. But that was what THEY needed to do. It can not be a broad brush that just gets applied to everyone.

I'm not sure how old you are but I know for myself it took me at least a couple decades to find an equilibrium. Some people find their answers sooner in life, some even later.

I have noticed (not really here, but in other places) that if you say you're transsexual (or transgendered) and you're around FTMs the 1st question is how far along transition you are ... how long have you been on T, etc. I think it boils down to a labeling issue really. FTM = female TO male, implying that you're changing INTO something else. In my mind, I've always been male, so I came to my own personal conclusion that I didn't have to change my body just for society to accept/approve/whatever what I always knew to be true. I occasionally have dysphoria about my body, but I've come to terms with it and I've made my own choices about it and I'm not at risk for suicide or anything. I don't even see a therapist anymore ... because it just wasn't doing anything for me. I had to just decide in my mind to really, truly, be myself. It was incredibly freeing to do so. Most of my friends just think I'm a tom boy or "act" male. Whatever. I realized it doesn't even matter because my friends accept me when I'm just being myself and that's what does matter. Society as a whole can look at me and make judgments but it's still not going to change my brain. Maybe I'm just weird, I don't know. I mean, I never had the transition option when I was younger - I had to find a different way to get through it. And I definitely went down some wrong paths. When I found out about transitioning I considered it for a short time but I realized that I would not be changing my body for me, but for the outside world. I know that's the whole point and all but I just disliked the idea and I didn't want to put my body through all of it when my body was fine, even though I didn't have the "right" parts. Most of the time I live my life just like any other dude. Sometimes I play the part of female. Only in the last few years have I really accepted that and it's only because of how I view it in my mind. I also have some very good friends who opened my eyes to different perspectives and ways of thought. One said to me that I was very lucky. I couldn't even fathom how I could be lucky to be stuck in a body that I felt I shouldn't have. He said, well you have a unique perspective on life that few get. You know how it is to be treated as female and you know how it is to be treated as male. You can play the part when required and have the benefits of both genders when you want to. I had never even thought about it like that. Then I came across this one video on youtube that was interviewing intersex people. And some of them had come to similar terms - that they have a unique perspective and in many ways are actually lucky to have the experiences they've had.

Some people can't be both. Some people need to pick one side. That's fine too. If you find that you can't handle being referred to as female at all, that still doesn't mean that you have to change your body if you're not ready to make that plunge. It's really about experimenting to find your balance and comfort and confidence. If you don't transition, that also doesn't mean that you're all of a sudden not male as well ... or that you're 100% female. There's tons of people out there (even plain old "normal" people who don't identify as trans-anything) who aren't 100% of one gender.

I think if you can not accept that people might call you she, her, ma'am, miss, etc. then you might need to consider some form of transition (and I really believe there are many levels of that, in which you should only go as far as you feel comfortable). If you absolutely can not live with boobs then you can have those removed and go no further.

Last thing I'll say, because this is getting pretty long is that sometimes it also takes awhile to "find" yourself and to know who you want to be. There's so many options available and there's no time limit. Don't force yourself to make a decision if it just doesn't feel right.

QuoteI like being Konnor, but I'm afraid I will lose my family and never find a man who loves me if I am Konnor.

My friends who transitioned got to a point where they were willing to risk their family and their future love life because they couldn't go on as they were. I didn't have family to risk, so insert "partner" for me. If transition becomes a need, or you perceive it as a need, you can get to a point where you simply must transition. The process of getting there seems to vary from person to person. Maybe you just haven't gotten there yet. Maybe you won't get there. I suspect that at some point, the limbo will become unbearable, you'll reach critical mass in one direction or the other, and you'll make a relatively permanent decision. But I don't know that you can logic your way through that decision. Most people I know got there...I don't know, sort of organically, I guess, in a gut way, probably because their minds were quietly grinding through the problem behind the scenes for quite some time.

Would it really be "easier" to live as a hetero masculine woman? Emotionally easier? Logistically easier? Emotions can quickly overcome logistics...

One question that you should consider is the "ideal world" scenario. If you knew that you could transition now and not lose any jobs, family, friends, lovers--in short, not risk any of the basic necessities of life or the social connections that you value--would you do it? The answer to that question can be very illuminating, but a "yes" answer won't necessarily decide things for you because this is not an ideal world. But answering this question helps you to sort out your fears and priorities.

How much is your therapist helping you with this?

I agree with Kvall.  I was a lesbian for a long time, transitioned at 39/40, the big difference (to me) is  a butch lesbian is still female, I am not female I a male. In the end being masculine had nothing to do with it there are masculine and feminine men. In the end for me I knew I am as guy and needed to quit pretending I was something I am not. I was never comfortable in the lesbian community because I was still having to present as female.
I did have to put it all on the line, I have a partner and 2 kids.  If I had not transitioned my partner would have probably left me anyway because I was so miserable and unhappy all the time. In the end it all worked out fine and we are still a family, it is hard for her at times but she is doing great.
I wish I could give you some help on figuring it all out, all I can say is at some point it became very clear to me that I was holding on to being female for everyone else but me.
Myles

I've done a lot of questioning, over my life. I tried to live as a masculine woman. But I couldn't do it because I'm not one. For me, the difference between the two really crystallized when I started reading anti-trans stuff by masculine women.

Basically, there's this assumption that being trans is an extreme form of the struggle masculine women face. They grew up acting like boys, liking the things that boys liked, and living in a society where gender roles are enforced, they were driven to wonder if perhaps they should be boys. But I'm the opposite. I knew I was a boy, and so I came to think I should act like a boy and like the things that boys like.

I don't know if that's really clear. I've been trying to come up with a good way to explain it for a really long time. It's complicated because I have two layers of the gender identity/gender role interaction where most people only deal with one. On the superficial, intellectual level, I've understood that I'm physiologically female and that people expected me to act like a girl since I was a very small child. And I knew I had to make a certain number of concessions to that, no matter what. But on a deeper, emotional level, I knew I was male and I felt like I ought to act like a boy.

So I had trouble really enjoying anything or being part of anything, because if it was boy stuff I was nervous and afraid of disapproval and if it was girl stuff I felt guilty and ashamed. I couldn't help but internalize male gender role expectations and the homophobia and sissyphobia that go with them.

When I tried to take on the "masculine woman" identity, I assumed that it just meant that I could discard the top layer - the expectations of femininity. But when I started trying to do that, I realized there wasn't a woman under there, masculine or otherwise. There was an insecure self-hating sissy boy. I tried covering him back up and then just layering female masculinity on top, but at that point I'd built the tower too high and it just sort of toppled. I had to come to terms with the fact that (a) I'm not all that masculine and (b) I'm not a woman.

I guess what I'm saying is: try to figure out if there's really a woman under there.

Holy crap, thanks for all the responses guys!! 

@Kvall/Arch...In an ideal world, I would want to take T, get top surgery, and live completely as male. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is even if I know that about myself, can I suck it up and stay a "masculine woman" or maybe androgyne, and be happy? I know it's stupid to feel the need to put myself into these little boxes, but I guess I just feel the need to identify with a group, anyone at all. I don't want to be an outcast.

@quicksand...I'm trying to give it time and let things happen how they're supposed to. I guess I'm just impatient lol. I've been out as possibly trans/gender confused to my parents/siblings for almost 3 years, and they still (almost weekly) try to tell me that I'm just a masculine girl and I can be happy being that way. But I don't know how to figure out if I really would be, and if I do, am I just doing it because it's who I am or am I doing it to make them happy? 

@insideontheoutside... I'm 20, almost 21. Like I just said, I'm just impatient I spose. I feel like I have my whole life ahead of me and I don't want to ruin it by living a lie or by being unhappy. I feel like I need to figure out who I am, stick a label on myself, and go on with my life RIGHT NOW. I'm tired of waiting to see if things work out. I graduate college next summer and I'll be able to move out and be whoever I want to be. But I can't do that if I don't have any idea who I am. I definitely understand what you're saying about your personal experience, and I want to find out if that would be feasible and comfortable for me.

@Arch (again)...I understand what you're saying about coming to a point where you have to be a bit selfish and do what's right for you no matter the consequences. I'm not to that point yet, I don't think. I still live with my folks, I don't have a significant other, I don't have many friends. My family is pretty much everything right now, and probably for a while. Ummm my therapist is trying to help. But she isn't a gender therapist, just a regular one. I don't know that this is something a therapist can help me with anyway...I think it might just be something I have to man up and figure out on my own.

@kyril...I'm trying to figure out if there's really a woman in me. I just don't really know how to go about that... 

Quote from: kyril on September 11, 2010, 10:51:21 AM
So I had trouble really enjoying anything or being part of anything, because if it was boy stuff I was nervous and afraid of disapproval and if it was girl stuff I felt guilty and ashamed

Same here, it's kind of odd that someone else mentions it.

There isn't really anything to say that everyone else has not covered, but I wish you luck in finding your identity. You seem to identify male, so I expect you to at some point be driven to transition again. It's too bad your family isn't coming around, they don't know what it's like to be trans and how frustrating it can be to be misgendered all of the time. It sounds to me like you are only considering living as a woman because it is easier, but that doesn't mean it's the best option either.

Good luck figuring it out.

What helped me at one point was to think of me in my old age, like 80s, and in a nursing home.  Did I see myself as a little old lady, or a little old man?  And I knew at that point I NEVER wanted to be seen as an old lady, but being an old man appealed to me.

One other thing to think about as you sort things out for yourself.


Jay

Let me make a couple of observations.

First issue. You really feel that you're male and are trying to decide whether you can stand to live as a masculine woman? Think of it this way. You're twenty and could live for another sixty or eighty years. Do you see yourself as being able to hold on for that long, becoming an old woman (instead of an old man) without transitioning?

Do you feel, in your gut, that you can just keep on trucking as a woman, even if you feel that you're not really a woman? You talk about living a lie, being unhappy. Does it make you happy when people call you "he" and "Konnor" and unhappy when they call you "she" and "birthname"? If so, how long do you think you can suppress your maleness? If so, for how long do you think you can let masculinity substitute for maleness? They are not one-to-one and onto.

In some ways, yes, you will be an outcast. But I look at a number of my acquaintances who transitioned more than five years ago. They are normal guys, not outcasts. Right now, I'm early in transition and am STILL going through an I-don't-want-to-be-trans stage. I am insecure enough about myself that I don't want new acquaintances to know about my past. The guys I know who are later in transition tend to be much more relaxed about themselves. In more enlightened parts of the country, the "outcast" label may be largely in our own minds, not in other people's minds. We might have a harder time finding sexual partners, but I don't know. LOTS of people in my local trans community are in relationships. I see both trans and cis partners.

You say that you will graduate from college in a year. Have you changed your name? If not, then I can think of a lot of logistical issues. If you don't transition physically, do you want a masculine name? If you do transition, do you want your college diploma to have a female name on it? How easy is it to change your name retroactively on your school records and diploma? As far as that goes, what about work history and credit history? Perhaps I'm not being fair, asking about logistical concerns when the issue is more psychological. But finding out some of this stuff can actually help you to decide how serious you are.

Finally, therapy. I do feel that most of us get to our own decision point without direct outside intervention. I mean, it's a personal journey. However, a good therapist can facilitate the process, ask the right questions, make us stop and think when we get too impatient or headstrong, and help us to figure out what the most important questions, answers, and issues are. If your therapist isn't sufficiently facilitating your self-exploration and your decision-making process, then you could wallow in pain and indecision for a lot longer than you need to.

You're still quite young. On the one hand, I'm thinking, "No time to waste!" But that's a retroactive thing--IF you are truly a guy, then you ought to live happily for as long as possible and build up as much of an "appropriate" (male) youth/past to make your future easier. And on the other hand, I'm thinking, "You have time, Konnor. Take it. Take all the time you need. If you're a guy, you need time to figure it out. If you're not, you need time to figure it out."

There's just no substitute for time.

Quote from: sneakersjay on September 11, 2010, 02:55:10 PM
What helped me at one point was to think of me in my old age, like 80s, and in a nursing home.  Did I see myself as a little old lady, or a little old man? 

Heh. We cross-posted the same idea. Well, it's not new on these boards. Maybe we should have a "questions to ask yourself" entry in the wiki or somewhere. "What would you do if you knew you wouldn't lose anything?" "How do you see yourself in old age?" Like that.

A few months before my final year-and-a-half decline, I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror at work. My students and a lot of colleagues all thought I was around thirty, but I was really forty-four. In one way, it was cool, having people think I was fifteen years younger than I was. In another way, it was scary. I knew the truth. I looked in the bathroom mirror that day and saw unmistakable signs of aging. A couple of incipient wrinkles, slacker skin, and my first gray hair, which I yanked out--not because it was gray but because I wanted to look more closely at it and determine whether it was just another blond hair.

It was gray. And I thought, "Arch, you're going to be an OLD WOMAN."

I only thought about it for a few seconds. I was deeply recloseted. But this thought shook me to my marrow.

No. No. NO.