Hello,

being transsexual and multicultural, what does that mean?

I can only tell you from my experience. Frenchmen with their gestures and favorite topics: clothes, food, how to cook etc.. seem to be very effeminate for German guys, who talk more about cars etc. and have different gestures etc.. So much about the gender expression, though I'm over-generalizing here of course.

And you come out as a trans person from such a background - French growing up in Germany. And therefore you also have to deal with the joy or trouble of two very different cultures with different gender expressions, expectations etc. And you had to deal with this before transition as well.

What do you do with the gender boxes your cultures offer you? I tend to be like I don't care as they are so different in my case anyway that I don't find much common ground here. So I do whatever floats my boat, without caring much. But it makes me being perceived as flaming gay until I "out" myself as French, then people tend to think - okay Frenchmen always seem flaming gay though they're straight. And then they put me into the straight box. Well, I'm bi, so it's not 100% wrong... but... no, I'm not straight.

I'd like to know about other people's experiences here, being both trans and multicultural and having had to deal with different gender expectations/roles depending on the culture. What I wrote here was very superficial, but I did not want to write a huge posting again.

I am half Chinese / half English and grew up in Hong Kong. I was never viewed as fully Chinese by the Chinese people, nor was I viewed as fully English by non-Chinese people. I always felt like I was in limbo - much like I always felt about my gender! I never really had many issues dealing with gender roles in either culture. I always had long hair in my teens, and would often be perceived as a girl by people from both cultures. Well, that's not quite right - Chinese people tended to see the male more, whereas people of other nationalities tended to see more of a female (I'm talking superficially here though, just by sight). I always thought it was a size thing. I have been 5'8 since I was 13, which is tall even for a male in Hong Kong, but is short for an English person.

One thing is that middle-aged or older Chinese men aren't afraid to voice their opinion loudly. Countless times I'd walk past a group of Chinese men and would hear in Cantonese "Is that a boy a girl??!" I guess they never thought I could understand, since I don't look Chinese!

Dear andream,

what you write here sounds like it is a difficult situation, being perceived as "the other" in each culture, not as "one of us". I never thought about how it is like for biracial people. And Chinese men asking openly whether you're a boy or girl thinking you don't understand them must have sucked as well. Do you live in Great Britain now? I know that Asian transwomen tend to pass much better in Europe than in Asia. Size may play in it as well, but also the fact that Asian physical features tend to go less to the male side in general for European eyes, so your genetic mix probably plays in your favor here.

In my case, it's different as I "pass" as both German and French (and Italian, and sometimes even as Turkish - I've been addressed in these languages as well on the streets by people asking for directions, missionary Jehova's witnesses  etc. and then go like huh? as I don't speak these languages). So it's more a matter of "outing" myself or not, which I think is easier than in your situation.

Interesting to see how we both have experience with passing/not passing and being perceived as something else than we are in more than one way (well in my case at least, I had a very bad passing before T, and in your case to a lesser degree as you seem to have had at least some passing in Hong Kong as well). What do you think, does it make the situation worse or easier? On the one hand, it means people tend(ed) to get more things wrong about us, on the other hand, the gender being perceived wrongly might be a somewhat less central issue as it's not the only thing which goes wrong here - I don't know.

Quote from: andream on September 11, 2010, 05:46:54 PMI never really had many issues dealing with gender roles in either culture.

Which attitude do you have here? Pick what seems right for you from both cultures and adding your own in, or how do you do it?

When I was a kid, it was a bit confusing for me, as I was the only French I knew in Germany, and did not know that many French people apart from my family in France to compare. I thought or hoped until I was 10 years old or so that it is normal for the French to raise some of their boys as girls and deny they're boys until a certain age that would not be disclosed to me, as this was what happened to me (and of course, my body would also turn "right" then). I found that both annoying and okay, as this denied me being treated as who I am, but also meant I could pick freely whatever I felt right from the girls' and boys' toys, behaviors etc. without being laughed at by peers or "corrected". I thought that was the reason why my parents raised me this way, as they accepted me to behave like this. Then the boobs started growing and I was in deep shock.

But then, many things were different at our home than in the homes of my friends, so this explanation seemed logical for me. Our beds were made the French way, not German one (very different), during breakfast, we drank from bowls, not cups, we put our sandwiches directly on the table, not on bread breakfast boards, ate different things, spoke in a different language etc. And that was just the morning routine, I'm not even talking about mentality etc. here. German and French culture are less different than English and Chinese culture, but for two neighboring countries, it's really worlds apart.

queerness and gender identity and, of course, gender presentation gets really tricky cross-culturally. when i leave the US, i am sometimes forced to present as female because i enter spaces where anything else could be really detrimental to my safety. i am lucky in that when I am in the US i am usually spending time in fairly safe, fairly queer-accepting (sometimes queer-positive) spaces, pretty progressive cities. etc. but i grew up overseas, spending time in (chronologically) tanzania, guatemala, colombia, bolivia, guatemala again, congo, and now my parents work in haiti - but i have not been there. i moved to the US when i was 16 (am 20 now).

especially in congo, i didn't bind and wore more "feminine" cut shirts. i traveled this summer to work on a farm in costa rica, and my host family referred to me as my legal first name (which is wrong, not my name; my name is tree). i didn't bind there either, but that was partially because of the heat/the physical toll of farm work, and, of course, partially because of the issue of feeling somewhat unsafe about talking to near-strangers about my identity.

cross-cultural presentation can be hard, and not because the united states is necessarily any more progressive, but because sometimes it's hard to feel safe outside of "home" (whatever it is that that means).

i don't know if i have much else to say about this. i don't come from a marginalized racial group by any means. my family is staunchly irish catholic american and fairly progressive so i am in that way pretty lucky. not that they know anything explicit about me. but, hey, it's there.

Actually, it was kind of difficult when I was growing up as a preteen and early teens, and I did have a complex about it in my early teens. As I grew older I sort of begain to relish in it. The thing is, the exclusion was only really with people who knew me, alhtough I waas still always accepted by both Chinese and non-Chinese friends and family, it was always just this thing where I was 'different'. My chinese friends and family would always call me white boy for instance. I never really minded, it was more interesting as the years went on.

To strangers, I actually never really 'passed' as Enlglish nor as Chinese! I often had people asking me if I was Indian, Pakistani, Italian, South American, Filipino - anything but what I really was! I looked so much like a Filipino that when I used to work at restaurants in Hong Kong, I would have Filipino customers talk to me in Tagalog!

The thing is my school was international, and I had friends from many different nations, so I never really felt left out culturally, although a lot of my friends did have their own culture - the Indian kids had Divali, the Israeli kids had Hanukah etc which  I did envy. I had the Chinese and English festivals, but they never really 'belonged' to me, if you know what I mean. However, I wouldn't trade it for the world, because being in between has given me the privilege of experiencing both worlds. I like to write fiction, and being an 'outsider' who is also accepted as an 'insider' allows one the advantage of a wider perspective, which makes one more observant.

I was a real rebel in my teens, so by saying I never really had issues dealing with gender roles in either culture, basically means that I never cared all that much about how I was perceived by anybody, because I was rally individual and had a screw the world attitude, regardless of culture. I never accepted the fact that I was trans until my late twenties, but I never worried as a teen to 21 if anybody perceived me as being feminine or female, or a guy or whatever. I had a lot of girlfriends who told me they liked me because I was feminine in demeanour and appearance, and while I was still accepted as one of the guys, all my guy friends knew I was different and vulnerable, and they would often try to protect me. When I reached 20 / 21 I decided to start protecting myself, and shaved my head, and started lifting weights and bulking up lol when I should have transitioned instead!

Thanks for your answers! Tree first.

Gosh, you've been in quite a lot of countries, and some of them really don't sound easy for queer people. Good to know you're in a better environment for queers now.

Quote from: Tree on September 12, 2010, 12:12:15 AM
queerness and gender identity and, of course, gender presentation gets really tricky cross-culturally.

This is true, including the "boys/girls don't do that" lists. I went to France to a students' exchange together with my class at age 14. There, it was perfectly normal for both boys and girls to discuss what they had had for dinner and lunch, how it was prepared, which spices were used and why, how long it was cooked, what you ate with this, what you had for dessert, how that was prepared etc. It was even considered as cool to know as much about that as possible. In contrast, German boys aged 14 discussing recipes in such detail were a no-go at the time (and probably still are).

Now andream

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PM
Actually, it was kind of difficult when I was growing up as a preteen and early teens, and I did have a complex about it in my early teens. As I grew older I sort of begain to relish in it. The thing is, the exclusion was only really with people who knew me, alhtough I waas still always accepted by both Chinese and non-Chinese friends and family, it was always just this thing where I was 'different'. My chinese friends and family would always call me white boy for instance. I never really minded, it was more interesting as the years went on.

Good to hear that things went better for you once you got older.

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PM
To strangers, I actually never really 'passed' as Enlglish nor as Chinese! I often had people asking me if I was Indian, Pakistani, Italian, South American, Filipino - anything but what I really was! I looked so much like a Filipino that when I used to work at restaurants in Hong Kong, I would have Filipino customers talk to me in Tagalog!

That's funny, I also get read as "one of us" once from people not related to my countries in a while, especially by Italians and sometimes by Turkish people too, and when they address me in their language, I go like hmm?

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PM
The thing is my school was international, and I had friends from many different nations, so I never really felt left out culturally, although a lot of my friends did have their own culture - the Indian kids had Divali, the Israeli kids had Hanukah etc which  I did envy. I had the Chinese and English festivals, but they never really 'belonged' to me, if you know what I mean.

I see what you mean. To be honest, I hid away part of my identity in my opening post to keep things simpler. One of my parents is actually Swiss, but from the french-speaking part (they have a funny dialect there). The cultural difference to the French is not huge, but there are differences. However, all three countries share a lot of holidays, but the rituals are somewhat different, and diffent things eaten there too etc. So none of all that is really "mine". I missed that too, but don't any more.

It must have been cool to grow with other cross-cultural people in a multi-cultural environment. This is where I feel most at home and as not different and as "one of them", too, when I hang out with a bunch of people of various countries. Anything "uni-cultural" makes me feel a bit like an outsider, too, and sometimes squeezed into too specific expectations and do's and dont's (not just gender, but in general). When I grew up, I did not have much contact with other immigrants though, and I missed that.

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PMHowever, I wouldn't trade it for the world, because being in between has given me the privilege of experiencing both worlds. I like to write fiction, and being an 'outsider' who is also accepted as an 'insider' allows one the advantage of a wider perspective, which makes one more observant.

This is exactly how I perceive it too. You question a lot of things which other people take for granted. You cannot even try to adapt yourself to fit neatly anywhere, cause you're between several cultures.

I once talked with a guy who was half-Spanish and half-Hungarian and had grown up in Germany. He told me that each culture presents you different boxes of what is considered good and bad etc., so he could not really try to adapt himself to conform to anything  100% as he was in-between cultures. He said it was sometimes difficult for him to figure out the differences as a kid and teenager, and he had to consider from which of the three boxes to choose for which topic, or to come up with an individual solution. This was also true for gender roles. He said it forced him to think a lot and gave him somewhat conflicting roots where others just stuck to the one box they knew, but it also gave him much more freedom and independence, and it was fine for him not to be a conformist. I can relate to that.

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PMI was a real rebel in my teens, so by saying I never really had issues dealing with gender roles in either culture, basically means that I never cared all that much about how I was perceived by anybody, because I was rally individual and had a screw the world attitude, regardless of culture.

Same with me. I considered joining some of the "screw the world" teenage subcultures, but then I would not have been an individual any more and expected to cling to specific sets of expectations how to behave, dress, speak etc.

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PMI never accepted the fact that I was trans until my late twenties, but I never worried as a teen to 21 if anybody perceived me as being feminine or female, or a guy or whatever. I had a lot of girlfriends who told me they liked me because I was feminine in demeanour and appearance, and while I was still accepted as one of the guys, all my guy friends knew I was different and vulnerable, and they would often try to protect me.

My situation was somewhat similar here, though I enjoyed the occasions when I passed as male. I did not try to squeeze myself into gender role boxes though, and still don't. Also, once people know that you are from a different culture, they tend to project much of what's "different" with you on the fact that you are from a different culture.

Quote from: andream on September 12, 2010, 07:44:09 PMWhen I reached 20 / 21 I decided to start protecting myself, and shaved my head, and started lifting weights and bulking up lol when I should have transitioned instead!

Oh, you delayed it but I think it's not too late.