Quote from: kyril on September 10, 2010, 03:48:22 AM
You keep making these generalized statements about guys that just aren't true. Men smile all the time, and eye contact is a critically important part of male body language - if you avoid eye contact you're seen as weak or dishonest.

Checking out/cruising another guy is different. There's a distinctively gay male way of doing it, and it's possible Squirrel got it wrong and looked female in that moment. But it's got nothing to do with whether or not he smiled and made eye contact.

I have spent a lot more years than you among males and I can assure you that guys do not smile at each other much.
Squirrel got read because he slipped into femaleness for a moment.
Squirrel wasn't in the local cottage checking out gay guys. 

Some of my statements - that seem to get up your nose - may seem to be generalised because they are based on many years study of other people and in general people do follow stereotypes.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:20:26 PM
I have spent a lot more years than you among males and I can assure you that guys do not smile at each other much.
Squirrel got read because he slipped into femaleness for a moment.
Squirrel wasn't in the local cottage checking out gay guys. 

Some of my statements - that seem to get up your nose - may seem to be generalised because they are based on many years study of other people and in general people do follow stereotypes.

I have no idea how old you are and frankly I don't care. I assure you that I've lived more than enough years among enough different kinds of men in enough places to know that what you're saying isn't true, and I have several hundred candid pictures of my buddies in the military to prove that it's not even true in the most homophobic subculture in North America. Men smile. A lot. With and at each other, even among people they've just met.

Maybe Squirrel did slip into female-typical body language. We don't know, from his description. We do know that he was openly checking another guy out, which if he were passing isn't exactly safe, and which probably didn't help him pass either. But you're making a huge leap from the perfectly reasonable advice of "guys don't let other guys know they're checking them out" to the patently untrue "guys don't smile and make eye contact."

I can attest that men do not smile at a guy they do not know. Smiles are reserved for friends.
If the guy doesn't know you and you show too much familiarity or friendlieness in the wrong situation you are wrong.

If you know a guy and are friends or if you have had a prievious bonding moment recently with a dude who is a stranger it is acceptable in certain circumstances.

If you are not in the gay bar or hanging out with a friend just avoid excessive familiarity with other men.

Quote from: cynthialee on September 11, 2010, 07:48:28 AMIf you are not in the gay bar or hanging out with a friend just avoid excessive familiarity with other men.

It's hard to know what's excessive if you haven't grown up male-bodied amongst boys. On top of that, the acceptable level of familiarity varies a lot across even small areas, and within them too.

I tend to avoid eye contact on the street because I don't know if I'm passing or not, or even whether the quick mutual glance is done around here.

Quote from: STRM on September 11, 2010, 04:30:44 PM
It's hard to know what's excessive if you haven't grown up male-bodied amongst boys. On top of that, the acceptable level of familiarity varies a lot across even small areas, and within them too.I tend to avoid eye contact on the street because I don't know if I'm passing or not, or even whether the quick mutual glance is done around here.

point made
you're right

I have always had difficulty dealing with it too. I would usually refuse to leave my apartment for the next couple of months after being spotted by anyone. I'm a little better now. Now I just get really depressed for a couple of weeks but I can at least get myself to go out still. I wish I knew how to just not care so much. My nervousness in public is I think the only thing that ever outs me anyway. 
I know that's not really helpful, but I just thought I'd let you know that I understand and can empathize.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 09, 2010, 10:21:18 AM
so you're looks and voice are not very passable and you smile at guys?  So obviously the waitress saw you as female.
Guys don't smile at other guys except as workplace peers or as best mates.
Culitivate a frown and avoid eye contact except among friends.

I agree that guys don't typically smile at each other, but a lot of them will make eye contact. If a guy is acknowledging another guy he will usually make eye contact and do a quick nod. however if you prefer not making eye contact you can just keep looking straight ahead. Avoid looking away or at the ground to avoid appearing shy.

Quote from: Ayaname on September 11, 2010, 05:34:00 PM
I agree that guys don't typically smile at each other, but a lot of them will make eye contact. If a guy is acknowledging another guy he will usually make eye contact and do a quick nod. however if you prefer not making eye contact you can just keep looking straight ahead. Avoid looking away or at the ground to avoid appearing shy.

I find the debate on this thread about whether men look at each other or not to be pretty hilarious.  My Dad smiles at people quite a lot, even complete strangers on the street and for it he gets a nod and "hello" from other men.  There's no need to freeze people out or be unfriendly.  In rural England it seems everyone says hello to everyone else.  Where I work even if two guys walk past each other they will nod their heads.  On the other hand in London it is rare to see anybody doing this and everyone kind of stays in their own little world.  Especially on the tube, its seen as pretty rude to stare at someone on the underground.  Its probably very different in America and elsewhere. 

i agree with everything you're saying alessandro ...for a while i decided to walk around with that poker face where i live, and it really wasn't a good idea,..people just thought i was rude.
but that's one of the big problems here, there's lots of different generations and people from all over the world coming together, talking about what passes as male/female and what doesn't, when it really depends on where you're living and what age group people place you in. for example in urban areas here, long haired boys in skinny jeans and tight pink shirts with big smiles on their faces and an enthusiastic pitch are perfectly normal. that same person walking through a very rural part of the country would just be STARED at and people might whisper "is that a guy or a girl???"
I have seen people here who in my environment WOULDN'T pass because their clothing and haircut would be way too conservative for their age group, they would look like pretending an outdated kind of masculine look, and thus they would be thrown into the lesbian category.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 09, 2010, 10:21:18 AM
so you're looks and voice are not very passable and you smile at guys?  So obviously the waitress saw you as female.
Guys don't smile at other guys except as workplace peers or as best mates.
Culitivate a frown and avoid eye contact except among friends.

This really depends on both culture and personality. Certainly, in north-west Europe the behaviour code of males dictates little body contact and little smiles directed at each other. But this is only a general and local view on how men should act to each other: it is not a law. It makes one wonder what exactly the reason is why skinship is regarded as normal between women, but as awkward between men. On the Iberian peninsula I found men in general having much more contact to each other. The first time I was surprised by a men touching my hands in a professional relationship, but I got used to it fairly quickly.

What I mean to say is: don't act according to what you think is expected of you, but behave in the way you yourself feel best.
Dear Paul, it is no surprise that you have difficulties acting to the general unwritten idea of how a man should behave when you are raised as a girl. This will undoubtedly result in other people interpreting your actions as being feminine.

Having patience sucks, at 4 months I wouldn't be too discouraged, you have a great face structure and in time will definitely look very passable. Understanding where your headed and holding on is the only way I know of navigating rough seas.

As far as smiling at guys goes, in boy mode I smile at guys all the time but there is usually a reason, it's almost never just a random smile, and for the most part I'm only showing teeth if in conversation. If i pass someone in the street it's usually the half cocked smile and a nod and maybe a "how's it going", it's good to be friendly! Not smiling can be construed as aggressive, and overly friendly too soon e.g.  showing teeth to a stranger, in my experience is very rare among men. All these are generalizations of course and I don't necessarily think they help to pass. I wonder instead if it was your interaction with the cashier somehow and NOT the smile at the cute guy that may have caused her to say that.