Back when I couldn't accept myself and I tried so hard to keep the male and female sides of me separate I used to imagine the male me standing there with a woman ever so slightly out of phase shifted just to the side. I think that's part of why I feel the need to see myself as just one person with one personality. It was like I was trying to lose a part of me and somehow I almost succeeded mentally. Now I don't want to lose that part of me again so I feel the need to keep both sides in phase. It's like if I separate myself into two I run the risk of making one persona an outsider almost. I just can't put myself through that again. Now that I value both halves of my singular personality I feel like I'm being truest to myself when I'm one.

Now that I'm one person it almost feels like there isn't anybody in here. Oh, there's a lifeforce in here, don't get me wrong. But that lifeforce doesn't look male. It doesn't look like anything really. My current avatar is the best way I know of to graphically show you what I feel like inside. There's just this formless energy that's both male and female while simultaneously neither male nor female. It just kind of is, you know? It's kind of like my body is just a shell designed to let me interact in this physical world. And I love being able to interact physically. If my inner lifeforce was ever freed from the containing body I would definately feel a great loss.

I think that's where a lot of my uncertainty about my appearance is coming from. Since the lifeform is formless I don't have an inner model to go by for how the outer shell, if you'll forgive the expression, should look. I know I want to outwardly reflect this feeling of both and yet neither that I feel inside. It was actually easier when I didn't accept myself as an androgyne. My outward appearance matched how I saw myself internally. I was male, and when I crossdressed my out-of-phase side came into focus while the male side became out of phase. Since I can't physically look like my avatar, how do I express this formless unity I feel inside? Looking male or female doesn't do it. So how do you express formlessness with form? There's no model to go by.

So who or what do you see when you look inside? And how does that influence how you look on the outside?

Quote from: Casey on December 04, 2006, 07:56:20 PM
So who or what do you see when you look inside? And how does that influence how you look on the outside?

I've always seen a woman.  Before transition, she was only present beyond what anyone could see, but little by little, she started to take shape, and now she is almost complete.  Only one more month to go and she will finally be free from the chains of an anatomy which never belonged to her.



tinkerbell

QuoteWho or what do you imagine when you look inside?

for a long time when i looked inside i saw a scared girl desperate just to live but was surpressed and locked away, and a guy persona i had built just to survive in the real world. i kept them as seperate as i could. recently though i have let them melt together and concentrated on just being myself.i am so much happier now and feel i have made some kind of breakthrough. i am normaly quick at learning. who knew that self acceptance would take 20 years

Quote from: Casey on December 04, 2006, 07:56:20 PMSo who or what do you see when you look inside?

<---- Her.

I imagine a child, before society had a chance to put it's grubby hands on them and write anything on the blank slate; always curious, always non-judgemental, emotion and logic (kids are really smart like that) in balance.

Of course that's what I imagine, it's a mixture of fantasy, too.  In reality, there's everything else . . .

I have always felt like the true, male me was a force of such exuberant energy and charisma that the girl me could barely contain him if he got anywhere near the surface.  I'm finding myself having a little difficulty coaxing him out now after hiding him away for so long, but really I think he just needs an audience.  He comes out when I'm with groups of close friends and of course he's always a big hit.  Such a flirt, and witty as a character in an Oscar Wilde play.  I've always felt he was a lot more exciting and well-rounded a personality than my female facade.  I guess really, the female me drew upon the male me for a lot of her personality and spark, like he was the part that was alive, and the female part was the inanimate, depressing cage holding him in.

What do I imagine when I look inside?

Well I think my avatar probably is pretty accurate. A male dressed in comfortable pants, shoes, and a button up shirt with long hair standing next to a girl dressed comfortably but still expressive in choice of color and material. Both are proud to be standing next to the other, hold each others hands. They love each other in a way that few could compare with, the kind of deep soulmate love in a more literal sense.

I know you were saying Casey that seeing a male and female standing by each other didn't suit you, which is fine. Dealing with a duality of mind kind be a little strange(a lot strange) at times. I know though that I couldn't have it any other way without feeling I was trying to repress one. We can all accept the two defined types of Androgynes as being different but still the same.

I've tried to describe how I interact as both of them standing by each other as stated above but in any given situation one will step foward to perhaps a podium or something to speak. Occasionally both will try to step foward and together they will say the same thing. Conflict only seems to exist when one tries to hold the other away from the podium.

Mia and Marq

If I had to put a picture on myself inside right now I'd say it was a muscular woman about 6 feet tall which represents how I feel like a strong person on the inside. I have to admit, I created that image outside of myself and absorbed it into me.

I'm under the impression that we program our internal image either by default rearing or by fashion magazine marketing or through our experiences but that we can also choose to create a new one and try it on. Its a theory but a fun one to play with.

What an interesing post to ponder...

Chunk

When I was a child on the just after the eve of consciousness, there was just me as a single mind and heart; simple, curious, adventuresome, kind, shy, and soft spoken.

I knew the difference between those older people that seemed like giants and were called adults. To me , I just lived in my own world, where there was just my room, my toys,  and a whole neighborhood to explore with my little red tricycle. And to avoid the big dogs that lurked about. In the hallway outside my room, sat our family bookcase. Inside the bookcase my mother placed national geographic magazines she subscribed to.

In looking through these pictures of the world and people, after see people of all walks of life, and even tribal communities, I had decided that I wanted to be a mother and bear children. For I knew I would be most happy once I grew up and could do this. I thought both males and females where one and the same, just in that they had decided in doing different roles. Breasts I had though appeared once one had decided and had children (I knew they were used for suckling, since I saw my mother breast feed my younger brother and sister). For christmas I received the family doll set that I had been eyeing every time we went to the toy store, that had mother, baby, and father.

What do I now see when I look inside?

I still see that single minded child, that is now more of a teenager genderwise. Finally loose of the great teenage divide, when I had abolished the female side within me, and tried every way to forget that part of me. Before there was no gender, only thoughts, feelings, and actions that just came naturally. Sometimes I have to force or consciously make efforts to free that inner soul from chains of limits, fears, and inactions. To unite that once divided self. To allow, support, show, express, tell, and follow.

I see a person with  attributes , behaviors, and preferences that can be categorized by social gender norms that are blurred or sometimes mixed.   Still sometimes afraid and trying to overcome my self limits, but trying to unite versus divide.

How does what I feel inside influence how I look on the outside?
On the outside I continue to make in harmony with my inside. Physically hrt has helped make my anotomy more intersexed (with small breasts). Clothing wise as I have written before, I have made several great mixings of feminine/masculine fashion strides the past year. Relationship wise , my family and friends know about me. I am trying to create that inner person to the outer world as truthfully and honest as I can. Of course I explore and try new things.

When I am happy? When I am sad? When I am angry? When I feel loved?
There are so many facets, not all apparent at once.

I see all the experience that has taken me thus far and the promise of much more to come. It's going to be a voyage of discovery.

Quote from: Kate on December 04, 2006, 09:02:55 PM

Quote from: Casey on December 04, 2006, 07:56:20 PMSo who or what do you see when you look inside?

<---- Her.

Yup me2

It's really interesting, all the different ways people see themselves inside. I appreciate everybody's replies.

I especially appreciate the replies that answered both of my questions. I can understand the answer to the second question may not be easy, or sometimes even possible, to put into words. I'm having a problem right now building a bridge between the inner me and the outer me. Knowing how others see themselves inside and how that influences how they look on the outside will hopefully give me some ideas on how to do this for myself. So if you haven't answered the second question I would really appreciate it if you would.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 04, 2006, 08:12:05 PMI've always seen a woman.  Before transition, she was only present beyond what anyone could see, but little by little, she started to take shape, and now she is almost complete.  Only one more month to go and she will finally be free from the chains of an anatomy which never belonged to her.

So it was an evolutionary process then? I've always imagined that when somebody has a strong mental image of herself then the outside image just needed a little tweaking to match the inner image. If that's not so then that actually takes some pressure off. I've been thinking that something must be wrong with me if I'm having a hard time physically showing the "real" me. But it sounds like I'm a lot closer to normal than I think.

Wow, just one more month? Too cool.

Quote from: Marq and Mia on December 05, 2006, 12:23:30 AMI know you were saying Casey that seeing a male and female standing by each other didn't suit you, which is fine. Dealing with a duality of mind kind be a little strange(a lot strange) at times. I know though that I couldn't have it any other way without feeling I was trying to repress one. We can all accept the two defined types of Androgynes as being different but still the same.

You're right, it doesn't suit ME. But it suits you. That's all that matters to me. Absolutely, bi-gendered and intergendered androgynes are different but the same. I actually see this not so much as defining two types but as two (of many?) different values for one characteristic of being an androgyne. This may not make sense if you aren't into programming but I see it as two values for the Gender (for lack of a better word at the moment) property of the Androgyne object rather than defining two different Androgyne objects that each inherit from a common class. And anybody that tries to say that one is better than the other is going to get an earful from me.

Now, getting back to you seeing yourself as two people standing side by side. You've said that sometimes one will handle a situation and sometimes they cooperate to handle the situation. Given that you're physically one person, how does this influence how you look on the outside?

Quote from: chunk on December 05, 2006, 01:25:04 AMI'm under the impression that we program our internal image either by default rearing or by fashion magazine marketing or through our experiences but that we can also choose to create a new one and try it on. Its a theory but a fun one to play with.

That's an interesting theory. I'll have to give that some thought. I feel that we have this internal image that may evolve over time but is strictly created internally. Outside influences like rearing, experiences, and marketing give us something to compare and contrast that image to/with. Ultimately that internal image, that sense of self, is something we instinctively know.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on December 05, 2006, 02:36:57 AM
When I was a child on the just after the eve of consciousness, there was just me as a single mind and heart; simple, curious, adventuresome, kind, shy, and soft spoken.

That sounds like me when I was little. My parents like to tell the story that when I was three or four I would be in the yard playing by myself (we lived on the corner) and some kid I'd never met before would be walking down the sidewalk and I'd shout, "Hey kid, wanna play?" You'd never guess that these days.

QuoteI still see that single minded child, that is now more of a teenager genderwise. Finally loose of the great teenage divide, when I had abolished the female side within me, and tried every way to forget that part of me. Before there was no gender, only thoughts, feelings, and actions that just came naturally. Sometimes I have to force or consciously make efforts to free that inner soul from chains of limits, fears, and inactions. To unite that once divided self. To allow, support, show, express, tell, and follow.

I see a person with  attributes , behaviors, and preferences that can be categorized by social gender norms that are blurred or sometimes mixed.   Still sometimes afraid and trying to overcome my self limits, but trying to unite versus divide.

I understand that completely. I knew I was a boy and my sister was a girl but I didn't really get why I was allowed to do some things she wasn't and vice versa. What was the difference beyond anatomy? And I tried so hard to bury those "wrong" thoughts and feelings that there are still some things I can't remember. kind of like Sam in Quantum Leap: a swiss cheese memory.

QuoteHow does what I feel inside influence how I look on the outside?
On the outside I continue to make in harmony with my inside. Physically hrt has helped make my anotomy more intersexed (with small breasts). Clothing wise as I have written before, I have made several great mixings of feminine/masculine fashion strides the past year. Relationship wise , my family and friends know about me. I am trying to create that inner person to the outer world as truthfully and honest as I can. Of course I explore and try new things.

And therein lies my problem. How do you give physical form to something that feels like it has no physical form, but I don't exactly want to erase the physical form I have now? That's helped to shape who I am. To deny my male form feels wrong. Adding the female form seems like it should be right but something is off or missing. Honesty is the key I think. That's what keeps saying something isn't right.

Quote from: Casey on December 04, 2006, 07:56:20 PM
And how does that influence how you look on the outside?

Well... it's driving me to take hormones and have my body surgically altered to match that vision

I never really had the conflicing male/female aspects so much, at least not in how I SAW myself. I did have the constant battle of people expecting maleness from me, and me giving in to those expectations and having a go at it... and hating myself for it. In some ways, THAT person turned into a second, inner entity: cold, unfeeling, empty unreal... a shell without a soul, actions without a heart. You could say it was my "male" side, though it's more like it was my male doing, an act, a forced role. You can STILL see it in many of my posts... super-cold, super-rational, near perfectly constructed chains of logic designed to squeeze out all feeling.

I do NOT like being that person. It's not "me," it's a learned pattern to protect myself. I used to personify it as an assassin: cold, unfeeling, designed to just professionally do the assigned task and nothing else. Works well when fixing a flat tire, but not a way to live and experience one's life. I TRIED to live that way at times... to shut off all this inner pain, to just detach from it all and not feel *anything*.

But it didn't last. A warm heart will always melt a cold will.

So yes, my inner vision of myself has always been of *her*. That vision has driven everything I've ever felt or done. She's my raison d'etre, my very soul. And she's desperately pleading for a physical existence.... and getting it

Quote from: Casey on December 05, 2006, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 04, 2006, 08:12:05 PMI've always seen a woman.  Before transition, she was only present beyond what anyone could see, but little by little, she started to take shape, and now she is almost complete.  Only one more month to go and she will finally be free from the chains of an anatomy which never belonged to her.

So it was an evolutionary process then?

Yes, the physical part was but not my gender identity.

tinkerbell

QuoteWhat do I imagine when I look inside?

I've had a long history of conflict inside. As if I had and have two different ways of looking at thinking and each coming up with different answers to any situation I confront. One is usually honest, rational, and proper; what it perceives other want. I now call him JR he is a gentle-man.
The other is very kind, playful (sometimes to the point of devilish), emotional, still cares what other think but is more concerned about being honest and open. I now call her Jillieann and have learned that she is very gentle and feminine in nature.
Yes there are many times when they respond in kind but often not so.
For as long as I can remember until very recently JR tried to ignore or in some other way invalidate Jillieann existence and recently for a short time Jillieann tried to do the same thing to JR.  We are making peace with each other, becoming friends, any learning how to share the future.  Cooperation and sensitivity to each others needs and wishes is the order of the day right at this moment in time ( I believe that will continue to be very important for a long time to come ). 
All that to say I see two different (people) genders inside; I do identify myself for lack of a better term Androgyny in the category of Bi-gender.

QuoteAnd how does that influence how you look on the outside?

I wore a beard for over 30 years. Now I have shaved not only my beard off but most of my body hair. All of my under things are female. She keeps us very clean and healthy. I've lost over 35lbs and I now walk and stand tall not slumped over as I use too. I keep my eyebrows thinned and I prefer to dress feminine. I wear clear fingernail polish and try to grow my nails as long as I can. I love to wear bright toenail polish. We both prefer to look female and to be treated that way. Sometime we joke that JR is just a dirty old man. 

But there is so much more than this superficial outside stuff going on. Like I said early we with cooperate with each other and share this one body. I hate it when one of us is silent, that is not sharing in any given circumstance.  We are becoming equals and I think that is the only way that either of us can continue to exist.

I am at the beginning of this journey an am still learning and growing.


Jillieann/JR

Its interesting that you would describe things in terms of programing as I've recieved a degree with focus on computer programming and so I understand your statement about each type being a different value for the gender field of the androgyne object. I admit thats a very interesting interpretation and I may be so inclined to use that example for future discussions as is appropriate.

Quote
Now, getting back to you seeing yourself as two people standing side by side. You've said that sometimes one will handle a situation and sometimes they cooperate to handle the situation. Given that you're physically one person, how does this influence how you look on the outside?

An interesting question indeed. I take a rather different view then most people I feel.

Try to envison the body more as a car with two people inside. We were given the car as a gift and we're stuck with this one car since we don't have means to get a new car. Now both our opinions on what to do with the car are important. Lets assume that women usually drive Dodges and that men usually drive Fords.(Just for example, not implying this is the case). So we've got a Ford, and when Mia is driving the Ford she might feel like she should be driving a Dodge but she doesn't, shes fine with the Ford as long as the car remains in good condition. Marq likes to not change the oil and let the car get dirty. Mia is constantly getting on Marq to change the oil, fill the gas tank, and care for the car. If we were to try and modify the Ford to look like a Dodge then we'd still be in the same car, it would just look different and we'd have the same problems of Marq letting the car get dirty and not take care of it as necessary and Mia would be pushing to have the car maintained. Since nothing would change about the situation if we made it look like a Dodge then there is nothing to be gained by changing the car at all towards a Dodge.

Now hows that for an analogy? So let me sumarize. Since I was born in a male body and no real benefit could be achieved by changing from my male body, we're content with what body we have, assuming its taken care of. So I try to take care of my body, keep it exercised, well fed, and well groomed. I tell people that if I had a female body, there would still be equal male and female representation within so why not just be happy with what I have. I doubt if I was physically half male and half female whether that would suit me any better since emphasis on the physical sex is a high priority, we're just making due with whatever we were blessed to receive.

Thats our story and we're sticking to it 

Mia and Marq

Quote from: Marq and Mia on December 06, 2006, 01:11:56 AM

Try to envison the body more as a car with two people inside. We were given the car as a gift and we're stuck with this one car since we don't have means to get a new car. Now both our opinions on what to do with the car are important. Lets assume that women usually drive Dodges and that men usually drive Fords.(Just for example, not implying this is the case). So we've got a Ford, and when Mia is driving the Ford she might feel like she should be driving a Dodge but she doesn't, shes fine with the Ford as long as the car remains in good condition. Marq likes to not change the oil and let the car get dirty. Mia is constantly getting on Marq to change the oil, fill the gas tank, and care for the car. If we were to try and modify the Ford to look like a Dodge then we'd still be in the same car, it would just look different and we'd have the same problems of Marq letting the car get dirty and not take care of it as necessary and Mia would be pushing to have the car maintained. Since nothing would change about the situation if we made it look like a Dodge then there is nothing to be gained by changing the car at all towards a Dodge.

Mia and Marq

sooooooo....are Marq and Mia two different people with two different gender identities?  one person with two gender identities? one person with a split personality? or?  just trying to understand.

tinkerbell

Tink,

I am Bigendered meaning having seperate male and female personas. Marq and Mia are the names of my two gender personas. Its not a split personality because split personalities are not aware of the other personalities. Two gender identities is another way of stating it. A bigendered person will tell you each of their two personas or identities has its own interests and motivations like any normal person would have, but share control of the body. Unlike an intergendered person, who feels like a mixture of male and female traits blended, I pretty much let one or both personas represent themselves at any given moment. I always use the example of two people standing behind a podium and they are asked a question. Generally which ever is most suited to answer that question or situation is the one that steps foward to address it, though sometimes both will jointly step foward or the wrong one to deal with a situation might step foward.

I can admit that when what I write starts to sound alot like in the 3rd person, it probably looks strange. I just usually go with what seems appropriate to me at the time. Just let it flow I guess.

I've been asked before why I don't just think I'm a mixture of both genders, and my response is always that to those people aware of me being bigendered, they can identify which persona is generally being represented by differences is tone, use of words, behavior, and other personality traits. Each persona is very well defined and in my opinion pretty easy to identify assuming you've taken the time to get to know them both. I would be happy to elaborate further as needed if confusion still exists. I sign my messages as I do because signing with one name would not do the other justice. In a situation such as this, posting on a support site, what we represent is our joint opinion. If I ever feel like only one is represented with a post I'd probably only sign that with just the one name as I expect would occur if I started a blog. Speaking of which I've been meaning to get around to that one of these days.

Mia and Marq

PS I also wanted to mention that I adjusted the avatar so they were holding hands yesteray because I feel their bond is unbreakable, on a journey together though life. Its all symbolic and stuff to be holding hands.

Quote from: Marq and Mia on December 06, 2006, 02:27:47 AM
Tink,

I am Bigendered meaning having seperate male and female personas. Marq and Mia are the names of my two gender personas. Its not a split personality because split personalities are not aware of the other personalities. Two gender identities is another way of stating it. A bigendered person will tell you each of their two personas or identities has its own interests and motivations like any normal person would have, but share control of the body. Unlike an intergendered person, who feels like a mixture of male and female traits blended, I pretty much let one or both personas represent themselves at any given moment. I always use the example of two people standing behind a podium and they are asked a question. Generally which ever is most suited to answer that question or situation is the one that steps foward to address it, though sometimes both will jointly step foward or the wrong one to deal with a situation might step foward.

I can admit that when what I write starts to sound alot like in the 3rd person, it probably looks strange. I just usually go with what seems appropriate to me at the time. Just let it flow I guess.

I've been asked before why I don't just think I'm a mixture of both genders, and my response is always that to those people aware of me being bigendered, they can identify which persona is generally being represented by differences is tone, use of words, behavior, and other personality traits. Each persona is very well defined and in my opinion pretty easy to identify assuming you've taken the time to get to know them both. I would be happy to elaborate further as needed if confusion still exists. I sign my messages as I do because signing with one name would not do the other justice. In a situation such as this, posting on a support site, what we represent is our joint opinion. If I ever feel like only one is represented with a post I'd probably only sign that with just the one name as I expect would occur if I started a blog. Speaking of which I've been meaning to get around to that one of these days.

Mia and Marq

PS I also wanted to mention that I adjusted the avatar so they were holding hands yesteray because I feel their bond is unbreakable, on a journey together though life. Its all symbolic and stuff to be holding hands.

Okay I understand now .    I was totally confused then, thinking that you were intergendered.  Going by the example you gave above (about the car and the two people inside), I can see now that each persona (Marq or Mia in your case) expresses their gender according to a particular situation.   How fascinating and how very interesting!   Thank you for explaining, and I am sorry if I did not know how to word my question properly.  We are all learning here as you can see. 


tinkerbell

It really does depend on the day.  I tend to be a bit gender fluid.
For the most part I feel as that I exist in a state of ambiguity mentally.  I am at both places in some way at once.  Who I view as the inner me is a bit of both, no real defining parts of one gender or another though.  It is a state of balance, a bit hard to describe.  The thing is the inner me and the outer me used to match much better.  I am working my way back to that, but very slowly. 
Then there is the times I feel like I am a ghost and completely nondescript and just barely human.  That is tough to explain.  It is almost without self image.  This is easily when I am the most disconnected from who I am. 

Sometimes, I do feel extremely feminine or extremely masculine.  But that happens less often.  When it does happens there is some disorientation, as I am used to the state of ambiguity mentally.

I am not even sure if that was clear.
Sorry I have not been around in awhile, I have been very very busy.