Nobody likes to be outed by people who are "in the know" about their trans status, but sometimes I have a hard time knowing whether or not I should blame them.
A little while ago I was at a get-together at a friends place and there were quite a few people there that I'd never met. One of the occupants of the house (everyone who lives there knows my "secret" already) had one of his best friends over as well. The friend told him (the one that lives there) that he was attracted to me and so the guy I know told is friend that I was trans. It didn't really matter much to his friend but for the longest time I was really upset with him about it.
After taking some time to cool down and think about it I started to try putting myself in his shoes. If you have a close friend who starts checking out a girl/guy that you happen to know is actually a transsexual you can run the risk of losing the friend if you decide not to tell them. I know there are plenty of people out there that would be pretty miffed to find out they were gawking at a transsexual and a friend of theirs failed to warn them. But what's the correct choice in this circumstance. What should they respect more, the wishes of the transsexual or of their close friend?

I think the transsexual person's wishes should be respected, as the friend isn't in any danger of being assaulted if the trans person's status is revealed.  A lot of people don't understand that casually outing people can be dangerous.  Even if there was no threat in this situation, it was still a violation of your privacy, and I think you had every right to be upset.  If you're openly trans and you chose to tell the person, that would be different.  But someone 'warning' a friend that someone is trans?  It just seems ridiculous to me.  You don't pose any more threat to the friend than any other person at the get-together they didn't know.

I agree with Farmboy. Even in a situation where the person might conceivably pose a health threat if the two got together, say the person was HIV+, it would be pretty poor form to say "Oh you think she's cute? Well, she has HIV."

Quote from: Nero on September 22, 2010, 07:36:26 PM
Even in a situation where the person might conceivably pose a health threat, say the person was HIV+, it would be pretty poor form to say "Oh you think she's cute? Well, she has AIDS."

If I turn the clock back 10-15 years ago where I was less aware of all these how-to-deal-with-other-humans-things...
Honestly, in such a situation, if it seemed to me that they would have sex the very same night, I'd maybe have disclosed the HIV status then. Or at least warned them to protect themselves as you never know.

About trans status, at that age, I outed an MTF (non-transitioning, not out of the closet) in front of a group of people then, as I thought there was nothing about it. I was out as trans, and three other people in the group were out as genderqueer, so altogether five of us, among 12 or 15 people. I knew she was a closeted transsexual (pre-everything) as she had been dropping hints all over about it since I knew her, without saying it straight out. I had not really outed her, just assumed loudly, and she went like... er... er... er...

It was horrible from me to out her as being "a woman in a body which is male", and "more lesbian than gay" as other people at the table had just joked about her being gay and I knew and had observed she was not into guys. But I was not aware then that this was horrible from me, as it was completely normal in our surroundings that people were genderqueer or trans... (tell me who your friends are and I tell you who you are...) This was before it came into "fashion" or people even knew the right words for it, we all just circumscribed it - I am sometimes a girl and sometimes a boy, I feel like a boy but my body is female etc. I'd never do this ever again to anyone. It was even completely independent from the LGBT scene, none of us went there. Just coincidence that so many of us found together.

Back on topic: I think if a cis person is absolutely aware of what risks trans people run into if they get outed and that you really only want to tell people yourself. Well then it's not okay if they reveal you're trans. But they need to be really aware of it, and just having told it once a couple of months ago might not be enough. People tend to forget disturbing things or to forget them as they are in a privileged position here. So show them the hate crime statistics, these are so horrifying that they will probably get a clue that you're not just being paranoid there. Don't forget that they live their every-day life without ever having to consider that outing themselves or being outed might be a risk for them, so they tend to be oblivious there.
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At the same time, the cis person was in-between both of you at the moment. His friend being attracted to you, and he wants him to know what's going on and not being betrayed. In case you're pre-op or non-op which I suppose, it's not his business to warn his friend though, but your's. Tell this to your friend. Maybe he just did not want you to end up in an awkward situation as I think he pobably never thought about how and when you usually disclose yourself. So he might have wanted to just "protect" you.

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 22, 2010, 07:55:03 PM
If I turn the clock back 10-15 years ago where I was less aware of all these how-to-deal-with-other-humans-things...
Honestly, in such a situation, if it seemed to me that they would have sex the very same night, I'd maybe have said it then. Or at least warned them to protect themselves as you never know.

About trans status, at that age, I outed an MTF (non-transitioning, not out of the closet) in front of a group of people then, as I thought there was nothing about it. I was out as trans, and three other people in the group were out as genderqueer, so altogether five of us. Not really outed, just assumed loudly, and she went like... er... er... er... It was horrible from me, but I was not aware then that this was horrible from me, as it was completely normal in my surroundings that people were gender-variant... This was before it came into "fashion" or people even knew the right words for it, we all just circumscribed it - I am sometimes a girl and sometimes a boy, I feel like a boy but my body is female etc. I'd never do this ever again to anyone.

Back on topic: I think if a cis person is absolutely aware of what risks trans people run into if they get outed and that you really only want to tell people yourself. Well then it's not okay if they reveal you're trans. But they need to be really aware of it, and just having told it once a couple of months ago might not be enough. People tend to forget disturbing things or to forget them as they are in a privileged position here. So show them the hate crime statistics, these are so horrifying that they will probably get a clue that you're not just being paranoid there. Don't forget that they live their every-day life without ever having to consider that outing themselves or being outed might be a risk for them, so they tend to be oblivious there.
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At the same time, the cis person was in-between both of you at the moment. His friend being attracted to you, and he wants him to know what's going on and not being betrayed. In case you're pre-op or non-op which I suppose, it's not his business to warn his friend though, but your's. Tell this to your friend. Maybe he just did not want you to end up in an awkward situation as I think he pobably never thought about how and when you usually disclose yourself. So he might have wanted to just "protect" you.

This is sort of what I was getting at. I think most would agree that it's wrong when you have full knowledge of trans issue to go around outing people. But I think there might be a level of grace that should given for the sake of ignorance. I'm just curious where most would draw that line.
As for my personal experience, the friends I have don't really seem all that aware of a lot of the proper trans etiquette because I try not to relate to them as a transsexual but as a female and they all just view me and treat me as such. They're all very accepting and really don't seem to care and a lot of times some of them will even forget that I'm trans.
But I'm not sure if I really want to go out of my way to educate them because I don't want them to start viewing me as a transsexual.

If you be post op 20 or so years and are fully female legally....

I know I'd be pretty miffed if someone (only a handful of people know about me).....started outing me nod-nod wink, wink....

I think this is your private info my dear, which its up to you to reveal when you feel ready or not....

Not for so called friends to band about - defo if such a pretty young woman you so obviously be....

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 22, 2010, 07:55:03 PM
If I turn the clock back 10-15 years ago where I was less aware of all these how-to-deal-with-other-humans-things...
Honestly, in such a situation, if it seemed to me that they would have sex the very same night, I'd maybe have disclosed the HIV status then. Or at least warned them to protect themselves as you never know.

Well in that case, I guess it would depend on the setting.

Quote from: Ayaname on September 22, 2010, 08:11:38 PM
This is sort of what I was getting at. I think most would agree that it's wrong when you have full knowledge of trans issue to go around outing people. But I think there might be a level of grace that should given for the sake of ignorance. I'm just curious where most would draw that line.
As for my personal experience, the friends I have don't really seem all that aware of a lot of the proper trans etiquette because I try not to relate to them as a transsexual but as a female and they all just view me and treat me as such. They're all very accepting and really don't seem to care and a lot of times some of them will even forget that I'm trans.
But I'm not sure if I really want to go out of my way to educate them because I don't want them to start viewing me as a transsexual.

Sure. If I were you, I would not be angry at my friends either, cause they couldn't know. But I'd really suggest, talk to each of them, make a trans stealth 101 with them, tell them the horrific crime statistics for violence to trans people in comparison to violence to cis people (read the hate crime/ harassment crime statistics up before and keep them in mind). Use the statistics to burn your lesson into their minds, as it's really awful, in comparison to other crimes (every three days, a trans person gets killed bla). They probably have no clue how bad it is.

Tell them you want to decide on your own whom you trust on these issues and that you want to keep that under control as well as you can, no matter how much they trust their friends. And that their friends might tell other friends etc. As someone being trans is usually a news that gets spread around a lot. And that even if no crime happens, even a he-she-he-she-fail would annoy you. Also tell them that it's up to you whom you tell you're trans as it automatically raises questions about what's dangling between your legs and that that's private.

Unless your friends are extremely dull-witted or reluctant, this should be a matter of just 15 minutes. After that, things should go back to normal. Transsexual mode off, female mode on again.

Quote from: Ayaname on September 22, 2010, 08:11:38 PM
This is sort of what I was getting at. I think most would agree that it's wrong when you have full knowledge of trans issue to go around outing people. But I think there might be a level of grace that should given for the sake of ignorance. I'm just curious where most would draw that line.

Ah, yes.  That would make a difference.  I do occasionally forget now how ignorant I was to these issues before I began my own research.  I'd say you have a talk with your friends and let them know how it made you feel when you were outed, and to give them some perspective on the dangers of that.  If they're really your friends they should understand, and shouldn't see you as any less of the woman you are.

every time I get my reply typed out, another side of this situation forces me to rewrite...hhmmm. I think that with that said, you should look at your friends intent. Why did your friend tell the other person you were trans? it could be that they are aware that the person who was attracted to you would not have been able to handle approaching you, THEN hearing it from you,,which can be a dangerous situation for us trans. but I can see that by telling him is also potentially dangerous. I have been in a situation where men have come up and talked to me for 15 or so minutes before they realize I am trans and then attack me...this is, i think, the reason a lot of us trans go about our business, never knowing ones intent,,,,,

i wish only good, positive and rewarding things for you 

Quote from: iris1469 on September 22, 2010, 09:52:15 PM...I have been in a situation where men have come up and talked to me for 15 or so minutes before they realize I am trans and then attack me...

O_O That's scary. I'm glad I've never had to deal with anything like that. Pretty much every person who's found out I'm trans didn't really seem to care much.

every time I get my reply typed out, another side of this situation forces me to rewrite...hhmmm. I think that with that said, you should look at your friends intent. Why did your friend tell the other person you were trans? it could be that they are aware that the person who was attracted to you would not have been able to handle approaching you, THEN hearing it from you,,which can be a dangerous situation for us trans. but I can see that by telling him is also potentially dangerous. I have been in a situation where men have come up and talked to me for 15 or so minutes before they realize I am trans and then attack me...this is, i think, the reason a lot of us trans go about our business, never knowing ones intent,,,,,

i wish only good, positive and rewarding things for you 

I think it all depends on a personal level, how you identify, how you present yourself, and of course how far into transition you are.

I would think that if a trans person is read as the gender assigned at birth and somebody comments saying "he/she is attractive" then the friend saying the correct pronoun and stating the correct gender would be perfectly acceptable. Heck, that'd be awesome.

If a trans person were...practically stealth, presenting as the gender they identify with and don't tell many people then I'd be pretty darn pissed at the friend announcing the trans-status.

OK I have given this a little thought.  Been Transsexual is not life threatening, unless you count in the sick SOB transphobe.  But being trans is not really the same as having HIV.  HIV can and does leads to AIDS, which usually kills. 

But being Trans is not something that one can catch and die from.  No one has the right to out a transperson.  That is up to the individual to tell a potential partner.  Yes some nutter can go off, that is why it is always best to tell in a public place.

The person who outs the transperson, will actually put that person in danger.  And some people will never see how they have done that.  They will never see the stories about another transperson getting murdered  Those who know must understand that you will not let them tell people willy nilly.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on September 22, 2010, 11:21:18 PM
OK I have given this a little thought.  Been Transsexual is not life threatening, unless you count in the sick SOB transphobe.  But being trans is not really the same as having HIV.  HIV can and does leads to AIDS, which usually kills. 

But being Trans is not something that one can catch and die from.  No one has the right to out a transperson.  That is up to the individual to tell a potential partner.  Yes some nutter can go off, that is why it is always best to tell in a public place.

The person who outs the transperson, will actually put that person in danger.  And some people will never see how they have done that.  They will never see the stories about another transperson getting murdered  Those who know must understand that you will not let them tell people willy nilly.

Well as far as I know, this guy hasn't been telling people "willy nilly". In fact, when someone who was at one of the parties at this guy's house decided to blab about it, a couple of the other residents got pretty upset with her over it. As far as I know, the guy (who I know the least of the 4 tenants) has only told his best friend and I'm assuming also his girlfriend. But I hardly ever get a chance to talk to him about it because I really don't know him well enough to pull him aside. There was one time a little while after the incident that I gave him a ride home from the bar, but I chickened out because he's just so friendly all of the time.  I know he didn't mean any harm by it, but I also know I need to talk to him about it eventually. I always hope that I'll become closer to him so it's more comfortable to talk about things like that, but I tend to shy away from him because he has a girlfriend (who is also one of the other 4 tenants) and situations like that always make me feel like I'm invading someone else's turf. His girlfriend is not at all the type to get jealous of any girl that talks to her boyfriend though, so that's just my own issue. I just don't know how to feel comfortable talking to him in private, especially since I know he finds me physically attractive, which I'm sure his girlfriend knows as well.

Ok here is how I dealt with the situation back in the days when it used to occur, thankfully now a very long time ago. As I had been open in my childhood and only really tried to live a closeted cis life whilst at uni there were very few longterm friends who didn't know anyway. But there were one or two from uni and my first job, and of course by the time I was postop, but still single, it was even more annoying. So I used to take the offending "friend" on one side and have a little chat the essence of which went like this:

Me "so you don't trust me then?"
Friend "How do you mean?"
Me "well you obviously feel the need to warn people about me thereby denying me the opportunity to tell them at the right moment"
Friend "Why is that such a big issue? I just didn't want my mate to feel that I had let him make a fool of himself."
Me "So like I said you don't trust me. I wouldn't have let him do anything inappropriate without letting him know the basic facts, but you have to understand that some people can react badly or even violently to something like this. Telling him you put me at risk of embarrassment or worse."
Friend "So you are asking me to let my mates remain ignorant even if it looks like they may be coming on to you?"
Me "No I am asking you to trust me when I tell you that I will tell them myself and in my own way before anything to intimate occurs. Besides if you really think that this is such a big deal then perhaps you should consider if you really want to be my friend. I mean I wouldn't want to embarrass you or anything if someone thought you might be coming on to me."
Friend "No No I'm cool. It's none of their business anyway."
Me "EXACTLY!"
Friend "Ok I hadn't thought about it like that. I'm sorry. It won't happen again!"

Quote from: rejennyrated on September 23, 2010, 03:30:28 AM

Me "so you don't trust me then?"
Friend "How do you mean?"
Me "well you obviously feel the need to warn people about me thereby denying me the opportunity to tell them at the right moment"
Friend "Why is that such a big issue? I just didn't want my mate to feel that I had let him make a fool of himself."
Me "So like I said you don't trust me. I wouldn't have let him do anything inappropriate without letting him know the basic facts, but you have to understand that some people can react badly or even violently to something like this. Telling him you put me at risk of embarrassment or worse."
Friend "So you are asking me to let my mates remain ignorant even if it looks like they may be coming on to you?"
Me "No I am asking you to trust me when I tell you that I will tell them myself and in my own way before anything to intimate occurs. Besides if you really think that this is such a big deal then perhaps you should consider if you really want to be my friend. I mean I wouldn't want to embarrass you or anything if someone thought you might be coming on to me."
Friend "No No I'm cool. It's none of their business anyway."
Me "EXACTLY!"
Friend "Ok I hadn't thought about it like that. I'm sorry. It won't happen again!"

This is pretty much exactly the conversation I imagine having whenever I get around to talking to the guy who outed me. Thanks for typing my thoughts so I don't have to. 

As usual, I totally agree with Jenny.

Whose life is it? Whose relationship is it?

Imagine  the scene. Having a coffee, a guy asks if he can share the table, (OK not the most original pick up line but as nice as most).  Outcome 1) 'Sure' and you have a chat and a flirt. Both of you feel good and end of story. 2) 'Sure'and you like each other and he asks you out, have a nice night out and then end of story;  or it gets heavier and then the explanation. 3) Your 'friend' leans over the table and says to him. she is TG you know. 4) You go to coffee shops holding a placard, "I'm TG".


The alternative type of scenario to maybe tell your 'friends' is that next time you see her being "chatted up" is to walk over and say, oh you do know she has genital herpes, thought you may wish to know before going any further.

Cindy

I'd say to entertain another persons insecurities about someone who is TS/TG would be just plain wrong. Being trans is not something you should have to "warn" people about. Just like you don't need to point out to someone "oh that person you have the hotts for has polio". It's a medical condition.. not a persuasion to suffocate people in their sleep lols! OR anything like that. If someone outed me to someone for the pure reason of paranoia, ignorance or fear then I'd have them out their most well kept personal medical issue they've ever experienced.. as a taste of their own medicine. Being trans should not define anyone. imo.

Quote from: Muffin on September 23, 2010, 04:53:02 AM
... Being trans is not something you should have to "warn" people about. ...

Well some people believe that it is and it's their right to believe that, as wrong as it may seem.
That's the real issue here.