Let me try to draw an analogous situation.

Suppose a patient visits their GP, and complains of severe, chronic pain.  The patient tells their GP that they have lived with it for years, it isn't getting better, and that if they aren't immediately treated with narcotics, they may kill themselves.  Should the GP prescribe the drugs?

It should be evaluated on a case by case basis.  There are certainly some patients who are in immediate need of narcotics, just as there are some transpatients in immediate need of hormones.  There are also, however, some patients who believe that they desperately need these drugs, but are mistaken.  It's the doctor's responsibility to prevent the patient with histrionic personality disorder from obtaining hormones just as much as it is their responsibility to keep psychologically addicted patients from receiving opioid drugs.  In either case, the prescribing doctor would be culpable for damages incurred by the patient due to their negligence. 

Should the 3 month period be a concrete rule?  I say no, but I think that it's a guideline that professionals should keep in mind when treating patients seeking hormones.  As I said, there are exceptions, and it should remain at the psychologist's discretion to determine when these cases are.  Similarly, there are some individuals who should receive a longer evaluation period, just as there are individuals receiving narcotics who should undergo stronger monitoring prior to prescription.

Protecting people from themselves is an important aspect of society, especially in the case of individuals who are potentially mentally ill.  In recent years, it seems that we've decided that everyone knows what's best for themselves; that's bull->-bleeped-<-, plain and simple.  Just as I wouldn't allow meth and crack et al. to be entirely legalized, I don't think that a patient should be allowed to walk into a doctor's office and demand a particular treatment because they've decided that it will serve them best.  These people are professionals who have gone to school for a very long time to learn how to best serve their patients, and claiming to know better than they do because you've read wikipedia, or posted on an online forum is ludicrous. 

The entire concept that someone needs to protect someone else from themselves is a form of apropriation of rights and it is also a colonialization of the body.

The idea I need to have doctors protect me from myself is absurd. What if I do screw it all up so bad I comit suicide? So what. We have too many people on the planet and some self culling would be a good idea.

Also....If we have plenty of transition disasters along the way then so be it. Gives us something to think on when we are decideing to come out or not.

I see no reason for society to be so bloody obsessed with controling our bodies and minds. It is evil.

Well if we need some "self culling" anyway, what's wrong with transfolk killing themselves because of the waiting period?

You aren't responding rationally, you're responding emotionally.  You're outraged that you don't have absolute control over what goes into your body.  Fine, but WHY, RATIONALLY?

My analogy still stands up to your response.  "The idea I need to have doctors protect me from myself is absurd."  Okay, so if I feel like some Opana or Actiq today, I should be able to go down to the pharmacy and grab a  few bottles?  Maybe I'm severely depressed, and want to enucleate; should a surgeon help me with this because it isn't right to protect me from myself?

Quote from: long.897 on September 24, 2010, 12:37:56 PM
]You aren't responding rationally, you're responding emotionally.  You're outraged that you don't have absolute control over what goes into your body.  Fine, but WHY, RATIONALLY?

I think that is definitely true, a lot of the responses are just beginning to be emotional "me" arguments. Typical of our times, "I want what I want when I want it and I want it now."

And all I can say about the whole suicide and self culling discussion is that it reminds me of a quote, "Most human beings have an infinite capacity for taking things for granted." I find the idea that we should just allow people to kill themselves disgusting.

What I feel about waiting is very different from what I think about it. 
It is entirely reasonable to ask someone who may be rushing into a situation before they are ready to wait, but my feelings are , " I want it, and I want it now!"

if the person demanding it now had a lifelong history of crossdressing and was socialising in venues where all shades of CD/TV/TG/TS were welcome then I'd be inclined to say OK start now...but if the person was a 30 something who had never crossdressed or given themselves a cross name i'd say better get some therapy first.

I should point out that these guidelines aren't in place only to protect us from ourselves; they also serve to protect other people from us. People can and do abuse hormones. This is a society, not a human archipelago.

And the self-culling remark...well, it may be right from an evolutionary/population biology standpoint, but I don't think it fits into a humanitarian context. This is a freaking support site, for chrissake.

Surely the question " how do you feel?" implies or even accepts that the answer will be emotional as feeling isn't often a rational decision? If we had been asked for our rational and logical views on the waiting times then answers may have been different? It has nothing to do wih todays society and more to do with the fact that we are all human beings and therefore all our reactions are different

Quote from: al james on September 26, 2010, 07:51:49 PM
Surely the question " how do you feel?" implies or even accepts that the answer will be emotional as feeling isn't often a rational decision? If we had been asked for our rational and logical views on the waiting times then answers may have been different? It has nothing to do wih todays society and more to do with the fact that we are all human beings and therefore all our reactions are different

"What kind of things did other people deal with in their 3 months of therapy before HRT and how did you feel it helped you as you began transitioning physically? Would you feel differently about the waiting period if you had a therapist like I had who was open and experienced with trans clients?"

I also asked those two questions that really haven't been discussed much in this thread, so if we do want to keep this going and keep it from just becoming a shoot out (don't know where shoot out came from, just random but fit somehow lol) maybe we can touch base on some of those.

For those people who are saying they wish the time period was shorter or that the time period doesn't seem necessary at all what kind of experience did you have in therapy? If your therapy had been handled differently do you think it may have changed your personal feelings on the waiting period?

Like I said in the original post my therapy was amazing, a very intelligent and supportive therapist who knew all about the struggle we deal with as transsexuals who did not require any other type of thing (as far as forcing patients to do RLE or anything like that) other than coming in, talking and touching base on how you felt and where you felt you were in the process of preparing for HRT. I know a lot of people didn't have that type of therapist, in fact I've only rarely heard other people say they had such a great experience. In the long run my opinion that they uphold the wait time for most patients instead of giving out notes right away does have a lot to do with the knowledge of how it would come back on the doctor if the wrong choice is made by the patient, having had a nice therapist who I get along well with why would I want to see her career damaged because one client couldn't wait? Obviously my opinion is based on a lot of other things, but this personal experience certainly feeds into my thoughts on the matter.

Quote from: Colleen Ireland on September 12, 2010, 09:20:38 AM

Being 54, at first when came out to myself, I was worried I'd left it all too late.  I feel a lot better about it now.  I know my time will come.  But I do think that perhaps age should be one of the factors in deciding how quickly someone can access hormones, etc.  A 2-year wait for a 54 year old is not the same thing as a 2-year wait for a 25 year old...

And it's a generational thing, too, I think, for those brought up on instant gratification.

I was almost 61 when I began counseling. ('What do you mean I'm transsexual?") and began HRT about 9 months later. SRS on my 63rd birthday. I don't recall feeling like it should have gone faster. There were lots of changes to explore during my monthly counselor visits.

At 10+ years postop, I'm pretty well satisfied with the way it all turned out.

Patience, Grasshopper.

Robyn

Quote from: Robyn on September 27, 2010, 11:07:00 PM
And it's a generational thing, too, I think, for those brought up on instant gratification.

I was almost 61 when I began counseling. ('What do you mean I'm transsexual?") and began HRT about 9 months later. SRS on my 63rd birthday. I don't recall feeling like it should have gone faster. There were lots of changes to explore during my monthly counselor visits.

At 10+ years postop, I'm pretty well satisfied with the way it all turned out.

Patience, Grasshopper.

Robyn

As someone who's under 25... I reject and am offended by your generalizations.

You can be satisfied about your circumstances all you want.... personally, I didn't wanna throw away my entire young adult and middle age life as I did my teenage life.

You can afford to be patient, you've already lived the vast majority of your life. 

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 26, 2010, 11:35:45 AM
if the person demanding it now had a lifelong history of crossdressing and was socialising in venues where all shades of CD/TV/TG/TS were welcome then I'd be inclined to say OK start now...but if the person was a 30 something who had never crossdressed or given themselves a cross name i'd say better get some therapy first.

As an early 20 something who matches your description, I'd reply with exactly the thing I told my ACTUAL therapists and doctors.

This is my life, not yours, I decide what's right for me, not you.

And some of us aren't clothing fixated and don't give a crap about anything LGBT... Some of us actually feel like we're female (or male for ftms) without indulging in fetishistic activities (I have yet to encounter crossdressing in its own right that I wouldn't call fetishistic, it's my opinion, if it offends you, I'm honestly sorry for that)

Quote from: Ashley4214 on September 28, 2010, 01:20:27 AM
You can be satisfied about your circumstances all you want.... personally, I didn't wanna throw away my entire young adult and middle age life as I did my teenage life.

I certainly hope your young adult life and middle age are longer than three months...or even the nine months Robyn mentioned. 

Seriously, I can see that you might be annoyed if someone said that (as a young person) you were definitely brought up to expect instant gratification, but that's not quite what Robyn said. She did not say that all young people are brought up on instant gratification; she phrased it as an opinion (with "I think") and then qualified it further (with "for those brought up on instant gratification").

Quote from: Arch on September 28, 2010, 02:04:59 AM
I certainly hope your young adult life and middle age are longer than three months...or even the nine months Robyn mentioned. 

Seriously, I can see that you might be annoyed if someone said that (as a young person) you were definitely brought up to expect instant gratification, but that's not quite what Robyn said. She did not say that all young people are brought up on instant gratification; she phrased it as an opinion (with "I think") and then qualified it further (with "for those brought up on instant gratification").

My young life, how ever long or short it may be, is beside the point. ANY time wasted, is time I'll never see again, and its time being wasted of that period.

She in fact said "... it's a generational thing, too, I think, for those brought up on instant gratification", which implies that it's a generation brought up on instant gratification, in that context, "for those" indicates "for those of that generation".

Only she can clarify what she meant, but that's how I interpret it.

Just because an argument is bassed in emotion does not invalidate the cogency of the argument.

Emotions are real and vastly more important than just about any other reasoning.

Quote from: Arch on September 23, 2010, 12:16:44 PM
Hi, Mara. I'm not sure what you consider "long." Or even what you mean by "immediately." Late in your post, you say that three months is too long; but it's only a recommendation, and therapists don't have to abide by that.

By long, I mean that in some countries, the health system is run by people who apply a one-size-fits-all policy where everybody has to wait 1-2 years before starting HRT no matter what.  Years is too long, and potentially lethal.

I used three months as the example because it's the SoC rate.  A few weeks over three months would be okay, for instance.  But generally either therapists will stop their limit at three months or else they'll go into crazy ranges like 1-2 years.  (Some of these other therapists also require cruel things like years of RLE before hormones, which is tantamount to psychological torture for some people and can be extremely dangerous in some regions.)

[quote author=Ashley4214 .

And some of us aren't clothing fixated and don't give a crap about anything LGBT... Some of us actually feel like we're female (or male for ftms) without indulging in fetishistic activities (I have yet to encounter crossdressing in its own right that I wouldn't call fetishistic, it's my opinion, if it offends you, I'm honestly sorry for that)
[/quote]

crossdressing is presenting female 24/7.   So according to you every woman wearing trousers is crossdressing for fetishism?

I'm willing to bet good money on the fact that in any town in UK or US 90% of the women will be wearing clothes that are definitely womens that 98% of the men would not want to wear.  The other 98% are probly too old or rough to care.

if you don't feel the need to dress female then maybe you aren't TS but are something else that a good therapist can discover if you are honest with them.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 26, 2010, 11:35:45 AM
if the person demanding it now had a lifelong history of crossdressing and was socialising in venues where all shades of CD/TV/TG/TS were welcome then I'd be inclined to say OK start now...but if the person was a 30 something who had never crossdressed or given themselves a cross name i'd say better get some therapy first.

What is it with you and this obsession with crossdressing?!  It's like, every single post I've seen from you in the last few days is you showing up to talk about this, and the other ones claim that all trans people crossdressed before transition, which is an outright falsehood.  Why do you keep saying it?  Are you just trying to demean everyone here who never "crossdressed"?

(Also, it's not crossdressing when transsexual people do it.  It's just dressing.  Crossdressing is what we did when we dressed based on our genitals, rather than our brains.)

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 28, 2010, 10:49:10 AM

if you don't feel the need to dress female then maybe you aren't TS but are something else that a good therapist can discover if you are honest with them.

Are you outright questioning the gender identity of people who didn't crossdress before transitioning?  Are you saying that I'm not a trans woman, but really some kind of confused man?

Considering that you've done this over and over in the past few days, I think you're actually trying to start an argument.

I am posting a rememinder of the TOS.

Quote9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

This thread is about the waiting period for HRT, not what a person has to do or has done.

Respectfully Janet... how can we properly discuss the waiting period for HRT without discussing the reasons and merits it exists and the manifestations of the waiting period? (I.e RLE before HRT, something I experienced from two therapists and dumped both within a couple sessions over, or requirements pertaining to cross dressing).

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 28, 2010, 10:49:10 AM
crossdressing is presenting female 24/7.   So according to you every woman wearing trousers is crossdressing for fetishism?

You're right that I was unclear what I meant by crossdressing.

What I said was...

And some of us aren't clothing fixated and don't give a crap about anything LGBT

and

I have yet to encounter crossdressing in its own right that I wouldn't call fetishistic

By clothing fixated I mean any abnormal degree of interest in clothing or dressing, abnormal respective of either assigned or identified gender. (As in, clothing fixation to a degree where it would be considered unusual with respect to either gender).

What I mean by crossdressing when I made that post, is fetishistic (I don't mean sexual fetishistic necessarily, I mean an obsession directly with clothing specifically) desire to dress as a certain gender for either psychological or sexual gratification.

Crossdressing is its own issue that need not accompany anything else, and I don't believe it should be taken into account when deciding if someone should be living as a different gender than assigned to them at birth. Which is basically what I was trying to say, though I was a bit angry when I wrote that post.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 28, 2010, 10:49:10 AM
I'm willing to bet good money on the fact that in any town in UK or US 90% of the women will be wearing clothes that are definitely womens that 98% of the men would not want to wear.  The other 98% are probly too old or rough to care.

I don't think it matters what you wear, when I say crossdressing, what I was more referring too was any clothing fixation, I know I said crossdressing, simply because that's pretty much invariably how its expressed.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 28, 2010, 10:49:10 AM
if you don't feel the need to dress female then maybe you aren't TS but are something else that a good therapist can discover if you are honest with them.

I don't need a therapist to tell me what I am, I never did, I already knew.