Wow, I don't think flying is that bad but some people do fear it. It isn't perfect but it is the best technology we have. Between taking a bus or a ship and spending days or weeks reaching a destination, a plane will last several hours. I mainly don't like flying due to the way security is done and mainly just being cramped in a seat for a long time. If you need to travel for SRS, I certainly think a plane would be less stressful than a bus. Even typical turbulance I have experienced when flying still seems less bad than the constant bouncing up and down a bus does.

Octavianus, I don't know if I gave you the wrong impression or if you were just speaking in general but I certainly was not rude when the plane was delayed due to the cabin pressure problem. There were several passengers that were demanding to the flight attendants that they were not going to take that plane so they switched to another gate and took another plane at no extra charge.

Shutting and locking the cockpit door as necessary does sound to be the safest measure to prevent a hijacking. The longer you keep them from accessing the plane's controls, the faster you can get the plane back on the ground where the authorities can step in. Probably the last line of defense would be the passengers themselves. After 9/11 I don't think people are so complacent when it comes to their safety. As a passenger myself I would have no problem restraining another passenger if they became so disorderly as to comprise safety. These days if someone on a plane does try to threaten someone a bunch of people would likely step in and restrain them. Other than that I think air marshalls are a good idea, pilots carrying firearms as an option if properly trained, and flight attendants being trained in basic self-defense and restraining tactics if not already. The absolute best form of protection which applies both in the air and on the ground and in virtually all situations is nothing more than being aware of your surroundings. If passengers and crew members simply pay attention to what is going on around them they are more likely to notice suspicious behavior and intervene in a timely manner.

Planes, statistically, are a LOT safer than driving in a car.
So, on those rare locations that I go somewhere in a plane, I know the butterflies in my stomach are completely irrational butterflies.

But our security is more Security Theater and less actual security. 

As far as making planes hijack-resistant, I can think of a pretty good way: I'm told the Israelis have their cockpit sealed form the rest of the plane.  The cockpit presumably has its' own toilet and/or food compartment.  The pilots enter and exit the plane through a separate exterior door from the passengers.

That way, if someone wants to hijack a plane, they have to cut through a bulkhead to get to the pilots and controls.  Making it next to impossible to do in the amount of time before an emergency landing can be effected.

And, Octavianus, they could not force you to open any doors through murdering passengers if there was no door available, correct?

So I think that should become the standard to which we try to retrofit our planes.

I also think explosive-sniffing dogs in front of the security checkpoint as well as in the baggage area (two to three at any given time on shift at the passenger check-in) ought to be mandatory.

Supposedly the government is developing electronic chemical detectors to do a job that dogs have been doing reliably for some time.  While the chem detectors would be more accurate, perhaps, we can have the dog program online in a year or less, I suspect, and probably for somewhat less. (Note I said somewhat. Good dogs and good handlers aren't trained cheaply.)

That hypoxia video was kind of scary. Don't most planes have gauges or sensors that warn the pilots of a drop in air pressure?

Quote from: Octavianus on September 28, 2010, 09:40:23 PM

Before 9-11 aircraft were not used as actual weapons so the manner of dealing with unlawful interference was very different than they are now. Then it was regarded best to temporarily give in to the demands and land the aircraft to further negotiate. With the attacks it was realized that an aircraft can be used as a weapon very well and it was made clear that access to the flight deck should be denied all times when facing a hostage situation.
I think that terrorists only partially managed to bring fear. On the ground we have entered a vicious circle of enforced security and people finding ways to pass that security. In the air the largest change is that we don't always allow people to take a look on the flight deck anymore. On flights to the USA this is out of the question mainly because of air marshalls can report this. On flights in Europe however it depends on the crew. I usually allow people who can show me a pilots license to take a seat on the flightdeck.

Using an airplane as a weapon has always been a real possibility, only prevented for the want of someone willing to die.

I appreciate that terrorism is serious, I live in the UK after all, but it needs to be managed in the same way as a beligerant teenager having a tantrum.

The failure of governments to prevent any access to the flight deck, along with the completely over the top reactions, increased security, repressive legislation, not to mention the utterly pointless invasions and the continuing persecution of selected individuals is playing into the hands of terrorists.

They have their reaction. Everyone is noticing them. Their attention seeking behaviour has been a complete success.

There has been much speculation about the motives of governments, especially the US. Prsonally I doubt that any of the conspiracy theories have any truth in them. The profiteering by many senior government officers, not least Blair, seems more likely to have been opportunism.

I tend to believe the problem is the US tendency to use superlatives.

9/1 was an insult to the security of the US. Probably the most significant breach of the security of US soil ever. Previous incursions by the Japaneese in WW2 were petty. Conflicts with Mexico more annoyances.

9/11 demonstrated not only that it is now possible to use an airplane as a significant weapon, it demonstrated that American can be hit quite hard.

The lessons of the IRA terrorism campaign are that terrorists are indeed attention seekers. If it had, in reality, been their intention to achieve their goal of bringing England to its knees, that could have been achieved witin about  months with minimal loss of life. Instead they spent about 30 years, when numerous innocenet people were killed or imprisoned. All that time, accumulating vast wealth.

In the 70s the response was to view with suspicission almost anyone who appeared to be Irish. This happened all over Europe. The result was extreme anger from Irish people and increased support for the objective, rather than the methods of the terrorists.

Only, when in the 80s, the attenion shifted to containment was any progress made.

Quote from: Britney_413 on September 29, 2010, 01:02:17 AM
Octavianus, I don't know if I gave you the wrong impression or if you were just speaking in general but I certainly was not rude when the plane was delayed due to the cabin pressure problem. There were several passengers that were demanding to the flight attendants that they were not going to take that plane so they switched to another gate and took another plane at no extra charge.

Don't worry, I wasn't referring to you in that post. In that situation whe had a hydraulical failure in which one of the systems were was not adequately pressurised (my aircraft has 3 separate hydraulical systems, should 1 or 2 fail in flight). Sitting at the gate I was surprised by the amount of people discussing it. Some asked me why we couldn't go, because hydraulics can't be that important. But the pinnacle was an enraged man showing his gold card demanding the immiddiate departure of the flight.

Quote from: rite_of_inversion on September 29, 2010, 08:49:54 PM
As far as making planes hijack-resistant, I can think of a pretty good way: I'm told the Israelis have their cockpit sealed form the rest of the plane.  The cockpit presumably has its' own toilet and/or food compartment.  The pilots enter and exit the plane through a separate exterior door from the passengers.

As far as I know ELAL aircraft have a double door locked from inside the cockpit. it is closed before departure and not to be opened after landing. The indeed have their own simple lunches. A completely sealed cockpit is not a good idea because there are some situations where a pilot has to leave the flightdeck. For example to inspect the engines or the wings for damage or ice, or for restraining an unruly passenger. The captain also carries documents to legally arrest persons and is allowed to make a will in case a passenger dies.

Quote from: Britney_413 on September 30, 2010, 12:20:08 AM
That hypoxia video was kind of scary. Don't most planes have gauges or sensors that warn the pilots of a drop in air pressure?

They do, we have a system that measures the "cabin altitude" (You can actually hear an alarm sounding in the background). When it goes above 9550 feet (in my type) an alarm will sound. One of the strange thing of the human brain is that it will ignore all extra data in case of overload. When a person experiences a high workload or even stress, it is possible he ignores a person talking to him or even doesn't hear an alarm.

Hi Oct, just curious what type of airline aircraft do you fly? You say you are 23 y.o That is very young for a first officer so congrats to you !!!
!, but I can't  imagine your career had been that long.
Anyhow I had always an interest in aviation and took flying lessons when I was a bit younger.

Take care

Quote from: adaralove on October 02, 2010, 04:57:55 PM
Hi Oct, just curious what type of airline aircraft do you fly? You say you are 23 y.o That is very young for a first officer so congrats to you !!!

Heh, I hear that a lot, especially from passengers. It looks like people generally want to have old pilots and young stewardesses when they fly. If it is the other way around it gets a bit awkward. Especially the times I mentioned that I didn't have my drivers licence yet (I do have one now).
I started flying right after my final exams in highschool. I was 18 at the time and finished at the age of 20. In the short time after this I flew some sightseeing flights and in about half a year I found a job as First Officer on the Airbus A320. The way of making a career as a commercial pilot in Europe is a bit different from the USA. Here you almost immediately get hired on large aircraft, while in the USA you are stuck flying regional propeller aircraft for a long time. Looking down on the Earth made me wonder how such beauty and diversity ever came to be so I started to study geology in my spare time.

You can always take up flying when you feel like it and have the financial resourses. Apart from professional flying I still fly a lot in small aircraft because I just can't get enough of the experience and freedom.