Basically what it says, does gender nuetral clothes help with passing as a guy? I tend to wear gender nuetral clothes, well what I consider to be gender neutral. Like t-shirts that either gender can wear, loose fitting pants if I can help it, in cold weather boots that aren't necessarly feminine. From the two pics I've allowed to be viewed on my myspace I've been told I don't pass, which is an bummer and it don't help that my bf tells me I pass. But anyway, the only thing I think may have contributed for me not to pass in one pic was the amount of make up I had on in the other one I don't know what all may contributed to cause me not to pass. This bugs me and it got me thinking if gender nuetral clothes actually helps with passing or not. And I understood from one persons view my hair don't help either, which also got me scratching my head. My personal style hasn't changed much since those pics were taken. So if anyone has any suggestions or what not please share, thanks ahead of time.

Well, they're better than very feminine clothes.

I checked out your pics, you're the one that posted the myspace link right? I agree that your hair isn't doing you any favors. The pics weren't exactly clear, but I would say that was the main issue from what I could see. Not sure what your face looks like because you can't really tell, but I didn't think your style looked neccessarily "female" or "male". Looked like you prob wear band tees and stuff, which I think are for guys and girls. Maybe try to get some better pics and post them on the "Do I pass?" thread and people will be able to help you better!

Passing takes several different elements coming together. You can wear a full on male suit and not be able to pass if the hair is feminine, you're not binding or even if you smell feminine (wear perfume or use a feminine body wash). Especially pre-t these little things can add up to make people read you as female rather than male.

So my point is it all depends on different little elements that will determine what works for you and what doesn't. Some guys pass fine in gender neutral clothing, others don't.

Sorry I can't be much more specific than that. I haven't seen your picture, or can't remember it.

Thanks guys I do plan on getting some recent pics up and hopefully they wont be blurry (lol I look better blurred). Yep that was me with the myspace link, cause that was the only profile of mine that I could think of that had pics. Yea back then I wore a lot of band tees now not so much but I prefer printed tees over plain heh.

There's no such thing as gender-neutral clothing at least in the US. There are men's shirts that girls sometimes wear (band t-shirts, hoodies) which may be considered gender-neutral. But all pants, shorts, shoes, collared shirts, and fitted clothes are produced either for men or for women and there are noticeable differences between the two even if the basic design is the same.

In general, if it comes in women's sizes, it's going to make you look like a woman, even if it's a near-exact copy of something across the aisle in the men's section. That does include pants. Even loose-fitting ones.

And in general, if you have female hormones, you're probably not going to pass with hair below shoulder level. Ever. No matter how you wear it. Even with short hair, you have to put a lot of thought into the cut. Sorry

It's cool. Just gives me a little something extra to set my sights on

Quote from: kyril on October 02, 2010, 06:20:44 PMAnd in general, if you have female hormones, you're probably not going to pass with hair below shoulder level. Ever. No matter how you wear it. Even with short hair, you have to put a lot of thought into the cut. Sorry

When I had long hair I passed all the time.

Regarding the subject of gender neutral clothing, I'm not even sure what this is. I wear t-shirts and shorts/pants from the men's section, I like the look and comfort of them much better. If you're already wearing "gender neutral" clothes, then it shouldn't be that hard to step into the men's area.

Quote from: kyril on October 02, 2010, 06:20:44 PM
And in general, if you have female hormones, you're probably not going to pass with hair below shoulder level. Ever. No matter how you wear it. Even with short hair, you have to put a lot of thought into the cut. Sorry

Not always Really depends on the person and if they have other stuff going for them - facial structure, body structure, the way they carry themselves, etc.

As for gender neutral clothes - I agree that really does just mean t-shirts, hoodies, sweats ... but once you get to pants and shirts it's either men's or women's. But plenty of women wear men's clothes and they can "get away with it" because it's become common place to see women in not necessarily feminine attire all the time.

As far as "passing" goes, I still believe the most important place to pass is in your own mind first. If you're confident about who you really are that makes a lot of difference.

I defently don't have any issues with stepping in the mens section, the only two places that carries mens clothes I actually like is K Mart and Hot Topic lol. Wal Marts mens clothes just seem dull and unappealing to me. I seriously need to get a new pair of pants my favorite pair was Tripp and well wear and tear happens and they can't be fixed so yea grrr.

I've been thinking about this as well coming from the mtf side,I've been wearing flannels and skinny jeans lately it seems to be something you see on both guys and girls.

Hi Raven I remember seeing your first pic but I didn't have an account to post with then.  I saw you wearing a band tee and black(?), maybe dark grey(?) jeans.  And to me it did seem like that was an outfit a guy or a girl could wear.  It's really easy to make those outfits strictly guy though.  First off for jeans/pants somethings like these should help:

Kohls- Levi's® 514™ Premium Slim Straight-Leg Jeans (In Alloy wash)

Kohls- Helix™ Straight-Leg Denim Jeans

Hot Topic- SOCIAL COLLISION BLACK INDIE FIT JEANS

Kohls- Enyce® High Road Slim-Fit Straight-Leg Jeans

For T-->-bleeped-<-s, band shirts are GREAT!  They really are because it is more of a guy thing to wear them.  So keep up with that, but to make yourself look more male you should layer a plaid shirt over it.  That's a very guy look and it will help you have a more masculine frame.  I would suggest something that has a masculine print, but that is more on the "trendy" masculine side rather then the just masculine side.  My feelings on that is, sometimes if someone dresses too masculine with out binding or packing they run the risk of coming off as lesbian rather then male.  Now more and more men gay and straight are trying to dress trendy and cool.  Also a button down shirt with two pockets is better at hiding things, when not binding, then if they don't have them. So anyway some ideas:

Hot Topic- IRON FIST RED BLUE BLACK PLAID LONG-SLEEVED WOVEN

Hot Topic- ORANGE BLACK WHITE PLAID FLANNEL WOVEN (Which I really like and think I will buy for myself)

Hot Topic- SOCIAL COLLISION PURPLE AND BLACK PLAID WOVEN

Hot Topic- SOCIAL COLLISION GREY BLACK AND BLUE PLAID WOVEN

Hot Topic- BLACK AND WHITE PLAID LONG-SLEEVED WOVEN

Kohls- Helix™ Plaid Flannel Western Shirt

Kohls- Tony Hawk® Shenanigans Plaid Western Shirt

And then for shoes I would go with a skate type shoe for instance:

Zappos- NIKE 6.0 MAVRK MID 2 (Black/White-Sport Red)

Anyway hope I helped.  Sorry if I gave you too many things. I'm gay and really into fashion lol.   

P.S. I know you said you liked K Mart clothes so I was going to use some clothes from there but the K Mart site was REALLY slow for me today so that's why there's no clothes from K Mart incase you're wondering.

Thanks Tyler yea those were black pants my old Tripp pants to be spefic *tear* And when the en of month rolls around that's the best time to go to Hot Topic as by that time their getting rid of the old stuff to make room for the new so you can find clothes and what not rather cheap Yesturday one of my friends had told me that last time she went in there she saw some mens pants for five bucks and that shocked me but don't take my word on five dollar pants because she has been known to get her prices wrong. But if that's true you can bet I will jump on that and get me a few pairs. Anywho lost track of the topic, that was helpful thanks and welcome to the board Tyler.

Quote from: Osiris on October 02, 2010, 06:04:23 PMor even if you smell feminine (wear perfume or use a feminine body wash).

i'm really glad to hear that someone else agrees with me on smell
there's a reason i avoid a few of the body washes in the house, even if they do smell good

I heard that heck I've gotten to use strictly mens body wash and scents lolz and no one has noticed here at home hahaha.

Quote from: kyril on October 02, 2010, 06:20:44 PM


And in general, if you have female hormones, you're probably not going to pass with hair below shoulder level. Ever. No matter how you wear it. Even with short hair, you have to put a lot of thought into the cut. Sorry

well, not always I can think of 3 guys who arent on T that pass quite well.. I think sometimes guys with long hair can pass better then guys with short hair, its all about the face and the body

Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 02, 2010, 08:06:52 PM
Not always Really depends on the person and if they have other stuff going for them - facial structure, body structure, the way they carry themselves, etc.

Quote from: Elijah on October 03, 2010, 06:51:58 PM
well, not always I can think of 3 guys who arent on T that pass quite well.. I think sometimes guys with long hair can pass better then guys with short hair, its all about the face and the body

I didn't say "always", I said "in general" and "probably." Thing is, if you're going to pass with long hair, you're probably already passing (at least sometimes) and don't even need to ask about it - if you have that kind of masculine face structure, you probably would have to put a lot of thought into making yourself look feminine.

But most of us aren't going to pass with long hair. Short hair - at least above shoulder length and in a masculine cut - is a strong cultural signal of maleness and it helps a lot.

Quote from: Elijah on October 03, 2010, 06:51:58 PM
well, not always I can think of 3 guys who arent on T that pass quite well.. I think sometimes guys with long hair can pass better then guys with short hair, its all about the face and the body

Ain't that the truth.  Even with my hair short and wearing male clothes and binding, my body screams female because of how I walk--which won't be changeable in the near future.

I use men's deodorant and a neutral soap and girl's shampoo.  I can't help it.  I love the smell of raspberries and I wish more guys would smell like raspberries because it's attractive to me.

I think a lot of times shorter hair accentuates feminine facial features. Maybe it's just me? I know a lot of guys who are trying desperately to pass go for the short hair by default but if you don't have facial hair or you can't grow any type of side burns that's a stand out feature. When you have really short hair the thing that is going to stand out most is your face. Unless you've done something out of the ordinary and did like a punk haircut or unusual dye job - then people will probably see the hair first.

There's also how to do a masculine short haircut while having feminine facial features and NOT look like a butch lesbian (as we all know they too love masculine short hair cuts). There's a lot of factors for sure but I still feel that the uber masculine short hair shouldn't be a default for everyone. A guy should experiment with what works the best with his facial features. Length of the hair in different styles can either help or not. A little bit longer on the sides can go a long way to hide the fact you can't grow sideburns for instance. Just takes some time to figure out what's best for you.

Maybe I'm just rebelling against the "men look like THIS" kind of mind set as well since I do have longish hair.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 04, 2010, 05:18:58 PM
I think a lot of times shorter hair accentuates feminine facial features. Maybe it's just me? I know a lot of guys who are trying desperately to pass go for the short hair by default but if you don't have facial hair or you can't grow any type of side burns that's a stand out feature. When you have really short hair the thing that is going to stand out most is your face. Unless you've done something out of the ordinary and did like a punk haircut or unusual dye job - then people will probably see the hair first.

There's also how to do a masculine short haircut while having feminine facial features and NOT look like a butch lesbian (as we all know they too love masculine short hair cuts). There's a lot of factors for sure but I still feel that the uber masculine short hair shouldn't be a default for everyone. A guy should experiment with what works the best with his facial features. Length of the hair in different styles can either help or not. A little bit longer on the sides can go a long way to hide the fact you can't grow sideburns for instance. Just takes some time to figure out what's best for you.

Maybe I'm just rebelling against the "men look like THIS" kind of mind set as well since I do have longish hair.

Remember, I said "above shoulder length." All of the visual tricks that you can play with longer hair - disguising a lack of sideburns, drawing attention to a masculine feature like a square jaw, hiding a small forehead or a feminine curved skull - can be done with above-shoulder cuts. Most of them don't even require hair much longer than jaw length.

I didn't say "uber masculine" either. I think flat tops and buzz cuts are pretty bad ideas for most of us - only seen a couple pre-T guys who looked more male with a buzz than with something a bit longer. But a masculine cut - one without pointy sideburns, wispy razored layers, or all the other feminizing touches stylists love to give to female-bodied people - is important.

There's a lot of variety in masculine hairstyles. There are probably thousands of different men's cuts that can work for trans guys. Mid-back, one-length hair, however - the style that a lot of us seem to have in our "girl mode" - is not usually one of them.