I had my second meeting with my third therapist last week,this should've  been my third but I was sick and couldn't make the previous appointment.One of the things that irritates me is the fact that my appointments are once a month.My next appointment isn't until November 2.In my first appointment he said that he would give me a letter so I went and got an endo and had my blood tested.I was all ready to begin my journey and then he said he wanted to see me more.Then in our last meeting he said that I should meet other trans people which isn't working out because I take the bus and a lot of these meetings seem to end too late.I'm thinking about lying and saying that I've met someone.I feel like I'm going to be waiting forever and I don't want to have to transition in my 20's.Some days I feel so desperate and stuck.

It's natural to feel frustrated and impatient. Just hang in there with it though. Transition starts the day we realise that we are trans and it is more of a marathon than a sprint. Try not to be in a rush to get to the finish-line but try and enjoy the ride instead. When you look back in years to come, and when you are on the other side of that line, you'll realise that waiting a few weeks for a letter or the next session wasn't such a big deal after all. If you are under 20 years of age you are still so young and you have time. Just know that you are on your way and you are moving. I'm so happy that you are travelling on the road to getting where you want to be.

I wouldn't recommend lying to your therapist. Rather I would discuss with him the difficulties of going to a support-group and see if you can organise an alternative arrangement.

Good luck!

Why does he want you to meet other trans persons? Why the stipulation? I wouldn't lie to him, but I'd ask for an explanation. I've not heard of this request before myself. You might also mention to him that, you've met quite a few on this very forum.

Quote from: JennX on October 01, 2010, 05:06:02 PM
Why does he want you to meet other trans persons? Why the stipulation? I wouldn't lie to him, but I'd ask for an explanation. I've not heard of this request before myself. You might also mention to him that, you've met quite a few on this very forum.

He told me meeting people in person is better and that if my family doesn't support me then I should have somebody who is sure to understand.He said maybe they could help me with coming out.

Quote from: tori319 on October 01, 2010, 09:42:04 PM
He told me meeting people in person is better and that if my family doesn't support me then I should have somebody who is sure to understand.He said maybe they could help me with coming out.

Hmmm... I have a bunch of gay and lesbian friends that have been just as supportive and helpful to me. Having a good support system in place is ideal, although not always possible. Some things you just have to do for yourself. I guess it just seems like an unusual stipulation to me.

Quote from: tori319 on October 01, 2010, 09:42:04 PM
He told me meeting people in person is better and that if my family doesn't support me then I should have somebody who is sure to understand.He said maybe they could help me with coming out.

tori.

Please forgive me if this sounds a little like a condecending lecture.

You need to learn to play the same game as these people.

From his perspective, he is the one in authority, taking care of this lost soul, guiding him through what will undoubtedly be a tramautic and painful process. You are really just a lost child, and he is the parent figure taking care of your interests. He insists upon seeing you only once a month, partly to ensure you've had plenty of time to think about the issues you've covered together, but also because he is really a very busy man and so many other need his council.

You missing an appointment demonstrated that you still have so many issues to resolve. You are not as sure as you think you are.

Since you are a lost child, you really need to get some support. You also need to learn to make friends and even discover the realities of the problems you will undoubtedly face if you go through with this terrible plan of yours.

Now, that is his perspective.

You need to remember that and try to play along.

He is the gate keeper. Not the only one you'll need to pass either. But he has the power.

With him, as with every other gate keeper you're gonna come across in your life, you need to work out what he wants and give it to him.

Next time, go in and say you've been thinking about all the things he's said. (But try to remember what they were). Then go over some of these and discuss how you've resolved them.

I don't know if you've come out to any friends, but if not, then do so. Keep doing so until you find at least one, preferable two, who are cool with it. Tell the Therapist about these and the support they are giveing you.

You are going to have to find some transgendered people to meet. Ask around about any clubs or places where transgendered people are. If any are involved in voluntary work, join in. It's only for a short time, just to please this therapist.

Also, try to construct a realistic idea of how your life is likely to work out once you've transisioned. How well you think you'll be able to socialise. If you think you'll meet a partner. What sort of life you expect and how you will deal with people treating you negatively or overly positive.

Be realistic and rational.

I hope you'll post some more of the things which your therapist has said.

Good luck

Good points Spacial, but then again via your example...she could always find another therapist because this one is a condescending gatekeeper. Maybe I'm a little biased though, my first therapist was a gatekeeper who always kept the promise of letters and such just out of arms reach, and when I brought it up, firmly but cordially, they made my sessions further and further apart. Hopefully that isn't the case for you Tori, but I would get out of there if it is. Finding a supportive friend is very important though, but it shouldn't be limited to one type of friend.

Thanks for the responses.He doesn't get set up the appointments there are others who do that.So I know he's not doing it on purpose.I think there is some doubt though about whether I'm actually trans.It be the the fact that I don't cross dress,I'm not all that into makeup and I'm not most feminine.I'm not really sure but that was a problem for my other therapist.I think he believes me more now since I've talked about how I measure myself now and I'm trying to lose weight.I'll try to be more assertive next time.He did say last time that I'm close to getting my letter but that's not exactly specific.

Quote from: mija on October 02, 2010, 06:29:43 PM
Good points Spacial, but then again via your example...she could always find another therapist because this one is a condescending gatekeeper. Maybe I'm a little biased though, my first therapist was a gatekeeper who always kept the promise of letters and such just out of arms reach, and when I brought it up, firmly but cordially, they made my sessions further and further apart. Hopefully that isn't the case for you Tori, but I would get out of there if it is. Finding a supportive friend is very important though, but it shouldn't be limited to one type of friend.

Exactly. Gay, straight, bi whatever. A good friend, is a good friend.

I keep hearing these sort of stories abut this "type" of therapist who makes his patients jump thru hoops like some sort of trained animal for a reward. I can tell you that for certain I don't do tricks on command. I guess it's a difficult thing, but I doubt I could deal with that. My therapist was very professional and set out the goals she'd like to see me achieve, but there was never the mention of any sort of "requirements" or "hoop jumping" per se.

Quote from: tori319 on October 02, 2010, 07:19:10 PM
Thanks for the responses.He doesn't get set up the appointments there are others who do that.So I know he's not doing it on purpose.I think there is some doubt though about whether I'm actually trans.It be the the fact that I don't cross dress,I'm not all that into makeup and I'm not most feminine.I'm not really sure but that was a problem for my other therapist.I think he believes me more now since I've talked about how I measure myself now and I'm trying to lose weight.I'll try to be more assertive next time.He did say last time that I'm close to getting my letter but that's not exactly specific.

So you're still presenting as male 24/7? Do you ever go out dressed as a female?

If so, based on what you've said about your therapist so far, this is maybe why he's hemming and hawing so much. Before I saw my therapist I had been living FT 24/7 as a female for several years. My therapist didn't have to work too hard or long diagnosing me with GID. She was pretty sure by my second visit. I had about 4-5 visits over a 3 month period (+/-) before receiving my recommendation letter for HRT. Now I'm sure I'm not the norm, but most medical professionals in this area connect and put a lot of weight on if the patient is able "to be comfortable in and present successfully in" the new gender role. So this maybe also why he's wanting you to interact with other trans persons.

I quite enjoyed my first few years out of the closet - the trips to the shows, the monthly dinners, the weekly cruising of the pubs along Canal Street and catching up with all the other people I thought were like me but then as I realised many were not like me and had no intention of transitioning or going for surgery I lost interest...but those times were interesting in learning about passing, styles and fashion and not least - flirting.   Now I have no interest in translife.

Quote from: spacial on October 02, 2010, 03:32:03 AM
tori.

Please forgive me if this sounds a little like a condecending lecture.

You need to learn to play the same game as these people.

No...... you don't.

You need to learn how the game works, then play it in whatever way is in your best interest.

I didn't like the hoops therapists attempted to put me through.... so I ditched them, until I found one who was reasonable. And self medicated shaving an additional couple months off the time until I got HRT.

That was a year ago, and I'm not even the slightest bit sorry I did it.

I'm not advocating doing what I did, I'm simply saying, there are other options.

One thing I would not tolerate with therapists is "Oh I changed my mind".

Never forget that YOU are the patient, and as the patient, this is about you. It's not about them, it's about you. They have expectations of you... but you are right to have expectations of them. Professionalism, which includes meeting spoken commitments. Understanding, which means listening to what you say and not setting blind 'rules'.

My advice is to never let yourself be walked on by therapists, my impression is that most of them are on a power trip.

Quote from: JennX on October 02, 2010, 07:35:21 PM
So you're still presenting as male 24/7? Do you ever go out dressed as a female?

If so, based on what you've said about your therapist so far, this is maybe why he's hemming and hawing so much. Before I saw my therapist I had been living FT 24/7 as a female for several years. My therapist didn't have to work too hard or long diagnosing me with GID. She was pretty sure by my second visit. I had about 4-5 visits over a 3 month period (+/-) before receiving my recommendation letter for HRT. Now I'm sure I'm not the norm, but most medical professionals in this area connect and put a lot of weight on if the patient is able "to be comfortable in and present successfully in" the new gender role. So this maybe also why he's wanting you to interact with other trans persons.

What trans environments are you going in where those interactions are representative of real life in your 'new' gender role? Cause I wouldn't say there's ANYTHING realistic about the way gender roles and expectations are handles by OTHER trans people.

Quote from: tori319 on October 02, 2010, 07:19:10 PM
Thanks for the responses.He doesn't get set up the appointments there are others who do that.So I know he's not doing it on purpose.I think there is some doubt though about whether I'm actually trans.It be the the fact that I don't cross dress,I'm not all that into makeup and I'm not most feminine.I'm not really sure but that was a problem for my other therapist.I think he believes me more now since I've talked about how I measure myself now and I'm trying to lose weight.I'll try to be more assertive next time.He did say last time that I'm close to getting my letter but that's not exactly specific.

You sound a lot like me in that you're not crossdressing (there is no 'cross dressing' in my mind, I wear what I wear, gender doesn't come into it for me), not a girly girl, not into makeup, etc.

And you sound like you're getting a lot of the same attitude for it from therapists.

My advice however is to not let your therapist get away with that. If you can, get another therapist.

They are NOT right to dangle a letter in front of you like that. Trust me, in my experience, these people can drag you on like this for as long as they like.

They have expectations in their mind for you, and those expectations are NOT that you act like a female. They're that you act transgender. They don't apply the same standards they apply to ciswomen to you, and that's wrong on their part. If I were you, I would change therapists and keep doing it until you find one who will listen.

Some therapists just don't want to help those of us who don't quite fit the mold set mostly by fetishists. Until we do...

I didn't follow the advice I was given by either of the two first therapists I saw. I didn't "attempt to live as female" when I knew I couldn't at that stage. I did what I thought was right for me at the time, and I absolutely 100% believe that I am significantly better off because of it.

Never underestimate your ability to decide for yourself.

20 years ago, they thought homosexuality was a mental illness, half the stuff they practiced they now consider to be wrong. They don't live our lives, they just apply the training they're received from other people like them. Don't overestimate its quality. 

Quote from: Ashley4214 on October 03, 2010, 01:55:39 AM
You sound a lot like me in that you're not crossdressing (there is no 'cross dressing' in my mind, I wear what I wear, gender doesn't come into it for me), not a girly girl, not into makeup, etc.

And you sound like you're getting a lot of the same attitude for it from therapists.

My advice however is to not let your therapist get away with that. If you can, get another therapist.

They are NOT right to dangle a letter in front of you like that. Trust me, in my experience, these people can drag you on like this for as long as they like.

They have expectations in their mind for you, and those expectations are NOT that you act like a female. They're that you act transgender. They don't apply the same standards they apply to ciswomen to you, and that's wrong on their part. If I were you, I would change therapists and keep doing it until you find one who will listen.

Some therapists just don't want to help those of us who don't quite fit the mold set mostly by fetishists. Until we do...

I didn't follow the advice I was given by either of the two first therapists I saw. I didn't "attempt to live as female" when I knew I couldn't at that stage. I did what I thought was right for me at the time, and I absolutely 100% believe that I am significantly better off because of it.

Never underestimate your ability to decide for yourself.

20 years ago, they thought homosexuality was a mental illness, half the stuff they practiced they now consider to be wrong. They don't live our lives, they just apply the training they're received from other people like them. Don't overestimate its quality. 

I'm so glad to here that your like me.My previous therapist though I should come wearing a wig and a dress.It's like I'm supposed to be an imitation of a woman instead of just a woman.Thanks for your advice.

I resent this also.

Many women don't wear dresses. They dress as they feel comfortable. We already have so many other problems, asking us to perform in this way is insulting.

But sometimes, it may be the only way.

Spacial wrote good points here. The goal of therapy, especially if it's imposed on you, is for mutual benefit, not just the patient's. Usually, therapists want to "help", and want to feel useful or even needed when you go to see them. And they don't like to feel useless or to see that you don't take follow their advices. So tell them about some of your problems, get advice, and tell them the next time how useful their advice was. Can be about trans-unrelated stuff as well.

Now, it's a good idea that you meet other trans people. Maybe you can find a solution there. There are congresses etc., maybe you can go on a week-end to a reunion etc.?

I had a similar problem with my former therapist, expecting me to "live in the preferred gender role" full-time for about a year before he gave me the letter for hormones. Guess what? I had no passing before testosterone. I did not mind changing my wardrobe, that was okay, but the result was just that my gender role changed from "random woman" to "butch lesbian" in the perception of other people. I was not treated badly for this reason, but it was interesting to see how differently I was treated - an interesting social experience in itself, but completely unrelated to my gender issues. However, as I knew already, this did not help at all for my dysphoria and did not help figure out about my gender at all, the only good thing was that it gave me a couple of months to slowly change my wardrobe and think it all over if I really wanted to transition. I'd have had the same effect though if I had dressed in clown's costumes or as Kermit the Frog during this time, though.

I did not out myself at work or request other people to call me with a male name and use male pronouns either, but in my private life, many people switched to that. So I had to lie to the therapist concerning being out at work and wearing the male clothes all the time. Being transsexual is not about wanting to wear certain clothes, make-up, jewellery or wanting to be addressed with the right pronouns just out of courtesy. And if pre hormones you don't pass, you cannot live in your "preferred gender role" either, best thing you can obtain is living in the "gender role" of a ->-bleeped-<- or transsexual. Honestly, I'd have preferred to dress female and pass as male rather than vice versa.

The therapist also wanted me to meet other trans people, so well I did this. Not just to follow his advice, but cause I also found it useful anyway. At the same time, he did not want me to isolate from other people and only stick to trans people. Both advices make a lot of sense, but hey, I'm an adult and it's up to me how I deal with this. However, I wanted the letter for T so this loop brought me into a weird position. Having to tell him that I socialized with non-trans people in the "male role" blabla. 

I knew a couple of MTFs who were requested by their to dress in dresses etc. by their therapists for a couple of months or even a year or two before getting the letter for hormones. This they did - I mean, they dressed that way for the therapists' appointments. They basically had three wardrobes: their old guy's stuff which they disposed of over time, normal female/angrogyne stuff which they usually wore and the "->-bleeped-<- stuff" requested by the therapist.

I think it's up to everybody to decide on their own how exactly they transition. However, many therapists (and the Standards of Care, esp. the German ones) tend to treat us as immature kids and impose strict rules on how we have to lead our lives.

If you're not okay with this therapist, you have two solutions: stick with him and jump through the hoops (or pretend to). Or change the therapist again until you find the right one. I don't know which solution is better and/or faster for you.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on October 03, 2010, 01:43:10 AM
What trans environments are you going in where those interactions are representative of real life in your 'new' gender role? Cause I wouldn't say there's ANYTHING realistic about the way gender roles and expectations are handles by OTHER trans people.

Please don't mis-interpret my post. I agree with you 100%. If my therapists treated me like that, they'd be gone. See ya. And also that's why I say any good friend, despite them being straight, gay, bi, trans etc. is a good friend. Period. Setting some sort of "criteria" that interactions with other trans-persons is required seems ludicrous to me. I was just trying to understand this therapists skewed ideas. The world and the people you interact with in it on a daily basis are made up of all types, so you need to get out there and learn how to deal and interact with all of them. Just not one specific group.

Quote from: Fencesitter on October 03, 2010, 08:57:54 AM
I knew a couple of MTFs who were requested by their to dress in dresses etc. by their therapists for a couple of months or even a year or two before getting the letter for hormones. This they did - I mean, they dressed that way for the therapists' appointments. They basically had three wardrobes: their old guy's stuff which they disposed of over time, normal female/angrogyne stuff which they usually wore and the "->-bleeped-<- stuff" requested by the therapist.

Okay... that's strange, weird, creepy, voyeuristic, and semi-misogynistic all at the same time. If any professional therapist told me that, I'd answer him with something along the lines of "A dress? How about better still... I wear my zip back leather mini and 4 inch stilettos next time... I'd bet you'd like that even better". Leave and never speak to them again.

Sickos. 

Quote from: JennX on October 03, 2010, 09:21:13 AM
Okay... that's strange, weird, creepy, voyeuristic, and semi-misogynistic all at the same time. If any professional therapist told me that, I'd answer him with something along the lines of "A dress? How about better still... I wear my zip back leather mini and 4 inch stilettos next time... I'd bet you'd like that even better". Leave and never speak to them again.

Sickos. 

We have the German Standards of Care here. They request you to live, dress and present in the "target gender role" for at least a year before you get the letter for hormones. Which means, androgynous clothes are not sufficient. Not every therapist follows the German SoC by the word, but many do in case they get sued later on. And if you live in a region where there's not much choice of therapists, well then you play the game for them. Of course, it's useful not to dress in "->-bleeped-<- style" only at the therapist as you need to feel comfortable in these silly clothes. They did not request sexy clothes, but unambiguously female clothes.

Biggest problem I had was with the people of the transsexual support group in the months when I sometimes still wore female clothes as I did not have the money to switch all my wardrobe at a time. I was afraid they'd spot me and tell their therapist (which was mine as well). So I only went there once so not too many of them knew me, hid my female tops under male jackets and got somewhat paranoid about being seen in mixed attire by them. Which was a bit paranoid as they were so self-absorbed anyway that I doubt they'd had snitched on me - but I did not want to jeopardize the T letter. Oh the joys of leading a double life!

I need to add, many of them were kind of immature and slavishly followed authority. Meaning, they followed what the therapist and the German SoC said by the word as "this is how you find out if you are really transsexual", as "it was made up by experts and experts know best how I should deal with transition" etc. I found a few people in the group who did their own thing, just like adults should do it. They got along better with transition, also kept a kind of double life towards the therapist and the group, and we could spot each other as we did not say this kind of things.

Another point.

You could change threapists, perhaps several times. If that is available to you of course. But all that adds to the delay.

If you can play along with these people, flatter their enormous egos, get what you want then you're gone.

On the other hand, of you have issues that you really think the therapist can help then then continue.