Quote from: Kvall on September 27, 2010, 11:19:43 PM
The explanation I'm seeing repeated here a lot, including in the new replies after the topic was resurrected, is "I'm not a trans man, I'm just a man."

And that's fine. Not every man of trans experience is going to incorporate his transition into his identity.

But those who do are also men. So to say that you are not a trans man because you are a man, or that you are a cis man because you are a man, is f*ked up. Trans men can be average men. Trans men can be typical, masculine guys. Cis men can be flamboyant. They can be atypical and feminine.

'Man' is big enough to include cis men and trans men both. If you just identify as a man, that's cool, but it doesn't of its own accord make you cis, because nothing about 'man' requires being cis.

I am a man and I am a trans man. The latter implies the former.

I agree with you as well!

To suggest that "Trans" makes you less male/female is just rude, even when we do it to ourselves!
Quit doing it plz.

Quote from: sneakersjay on September 28, 2010, 06:18:10 AM
For the most part I don't even think about being trans any more.  I'm me.  Though I get enough reminders every day when my kids call me Mom, a coworker she's me, my mother calls me Birthname, etc. 

Yes, I may have grown up in a girl body and was treated and socialized as a girl, but I never was a girl.  I was climbing trees with the neighbor boys, hanging out in the dairy barn down the street with the cows, catching frogs, etc.  As I got older I was acutely aware of the missing bits and was horrified/embarrassed about it.  Teen years sucked.  As an adult I forced myself to be as feminine as I could, but still couldn't do jewelry and makeup and heels and dresses.... Bleh.  But I did marry and have children, no regrets there.

I'm post op everything now, no longer have issues with my bits.  I'm a dude with a very small penis.  And I'm not alone.  The only reminder is the one remaining slow-to-heal area which has shrunk by >50% this last week, so almost there!  Can't wait to not have to be reminded that I had surgery down there.


Jay

Damn dude, I hope somewhere to be where you are.

Since I posted this I've become less obsessed with "OMG, i'm trans." The longer I'm on T, the less it dominates my every thought. I forget I'm trans sometimes now, and that's amazing to me. I still dont' openly admit it, but with my name change 2 days away I feel like I'm that much closer to putting the past behind me and moving in into my new life. It doesn't matter what I am. I just am. And that alone, is amazing.

Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on September 28, 2010, 08:10:52 AM
Damn dude, I hope somewhere to be where you are.

You'll get there!  And you're less than half my age, so you'll get to enjoy it more!


Jay

Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on September 28, 2010, 08:15:05 AMI forget I'm trans sometimes now, and that's amazing to me.

I get like that too.

Perhaps I should clear some things. When I refer to myself as feeling like a cisguy I mean more that I'm just another guy and nothing "special".

I've learned that many (if not most) people see us as "special"- both good and bad. I don't want that. I don't want to be seen as special, or brave for transitioning (I've heard this several times), or excluded from a group for being trans, or mocked or even beat up and raped (it happens).

I just want to be seen as a "non-special" guy. I want people to know me for my thoughts, actions, beliefs and personality- not be obsessed with the gender I was born as or continually question my masculinity.

So, for me, being stealth when I can is important. Being trans does not make you less of a man at all. However, many people out there believe this. We all suffer from ignorance, stereotypes, close-minded people and hatred because of being trans. Is it such a crime to try and make life easier?

I realize that where people live can affect their mindset too. If you live in a country or state that is open-minded and trans people are protected it makes things easier. If you live in a conservative area where trans people aren't protected at all and have few rights- that affects your life and mindset too.

Quote from: Radar on September 30, 2010, 04:31:22 PM
I get like that too.

Perhaps I should clear some things. When I refer to myself as feeling like a cisguy I mean more that I'm just another guy and nothing "special".

I've learned that many (if not most) people see us as "special"- both good and bad. I don't want that. I don't want to be seen as special, or brave for transitioning (I've heard this several times), or excluded from a group for being trans, or mocked or even beat up and raped (it happens).

I just want to be seen as a "non-special" guy. I want people to know me for my thoughts, actions, beliefs and personality- not be obsessed with the gender I was born as or continually question my masculinity.

So, for me, being stealth when I can is important. Being trans does not make you less of a man at all. However, many people out there believe this. We all suffer from ignorance, stereotypes, close-minded people and hatred because of being trans. Is it such a crime to try and make life easier?

I realize that where people live can affect their mindset too. If you live in a country or state that is open-minded and trans people are protected it makes things easier. If you live in a conservative area where trans people aren't protected at all and have few rights- that affects your life and mindset too.

Yeah I feel this way too - you made some good points there.

Also, there's many reasons to want to be "stealth".

I've been on t for almost 1 year, i've had chest surgery, my name is changed, my license is changed, I've done everything I can besides my bottom surgery. Of course I am trans, and i'm not ashamed of it, but I am a guy. I introduce myself as male, i fill my papers out as male, I use the mens restroom. I will always support the trans community, be an activist, & do whatever i can to educate. But in my everyday life i dont live as "trans" I live as a man.

Well...my name is officially changed. I can now apply for a job and not need them to ever know I'm trans. It feels amazing.....

Since this morning when I was officially legal, I felt like I'm somewhat less threatened now. If people know, they know. I don't out myself willingly. But if people look at my ID now they won't know...and somehow that makes me feel alot better. No one can prove it unless they strip me naked....which isn't happening in mixed company. Lol.

I am simply a "male."

And yes, it is irritating that people insist on rubbing my nose in the trans deal. "Well, you're not really a man." That is only in a couple ways, and in ways you'll never know me. The ones who feel the need to bring it up are ones who it never affects anyway.

Yeah, when people press it I simply say I'm male. Nothing else. If they ask if I'm trans and they're a random stranger or someone I don't really know, I say I'm not. For my safety...and stuff. It's none of their business.

If you are pretty much complete and live your fixed life comfortably then you are just another male.

You did this, not to be a different type of male but to be a male, were technology a bit better and you had it all too but that's not for now.

Point is, you got to a state that everyone sees you and who you are and probably so do you, if you want to tell someone then tell them but it doesn't make you less of a male.

So for me you are cis-male, DNA doesn't matter because we alerted the body function and it is not working by what DNA tells it anymore, it is therefore irrelevant and even more because nobody knows it anyways.

Oh and an XX male with y deciding gene (yes it is a gene, not a chromosome) or an XY female without it is no less male or female than the rest, why should you?

I personally, even being pre-everything, identify as cis male. I just have a few birth defects that I gotta clear up  but I'm all male.  That's just me, everyone's different.

Quote from: Myself on September 30, 2010, 10:42:34 PM...DNA doesn't matter because we alerted the body function and it is not working by what DNA tells it anymore, it is therefore irrelevant and even more because nobody knows it anyways.

Oh and an XX male with y deciding gene (yes it is a gene, not a chromosome) or an XY female without it is no less male or female than the rest, why should you?

This reminds me of an interesting article I read. For whatever reason (don't remember) a college student got blood tests done and one of them was for DNA testing. She was found to have an XY chromosome. She had all her female organs and they functioned properly, wasn't intersexed and didn't even identify as trans. She was crushed and crying believing that made her not a "real" woman. They told her it was a strange "fluke" in nature but it didn't make her any less female. So, it appears we can't even completely go off sex chromosomes anymore.

Quote from: j83 on July 22, 2010, 01:01:40 PM
I'm stealth, and i'll always stay stealth. I don't assosciate with any trans groups in my local area on at the clinic i go to. Coming on this website is about as close as i'll ever get to associating with other trans dudes, purely cause i just wanna be seen as a normal guy i dont want the trans label hovering over my head. Never have and never will.

i agree with this

Quote from: gilligan on July 19, 2010, 08:38:23 PM
I laughed at the pun.

but it is true, you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you.  these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs.

I didn't grow up as a girl. I grew up as a boy whom most people thought to be a girl. I was socialized as a boy despite the best efforts of those around me. The more I reflect, the more certain I become that I was never socialized as a girl - people tried, but it just didn't take. I was a boy.

And I don't buy the "different experiences" line. Every boy has different experiences growing up. Hell, there are XY men like David Reimer whose parents actually attempted to raise them as girls, just like me (actually, his upbringing was way, way more explicitly and rigidly gendered than mine). There are boys whose parents do everything physically in their power to raise them in a gender-neutral home. On the other side, there are girls (as we recently learned on the news) in Afghanistan who are raised and treated as boys. They're not boys, or trans women, or anything but simply women with unusual upbringings. And David Reimer was simply a man with a horribly abusive childhood and very sad medical history.

Will my childhood experiences of occasionally wearing dresses without being targeted by homophobia (other than the internal kind) always be a part of me? Sure. Does that make me permanently, irrevocably different from other men? Nope. The only thing that does that is my genitalia. So I'll never be cis - but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my childhood experiences.

Quote from: kyril on October 04, 2010, 01:43:22 AM
I didn't grow up as a girl. I grew up as a boy whom most people thought to be a girl. I was socialized as a boy despite the best efforts of those around me. The more I reflect, the more certain I become that I was never socialized as a girl - people tried, but it just didn't take. I was a boy.

Will my childhood experiences of occasionally wearing dresses without being targeted by homophobia (other than the internal kind) always be a part of me? Sure. Does that make me permanently, irrevocably different from other men? Nope.

Totally agree with this because it was the same for me growing up. There was the rare occasion my mom attempted to dress me like a little girl but other than that everyone (until they were told different) thought I was a boy.

Yeah errr.....I never was and never will be that F word. Wasn't socialized as that. Hell, I wasn't even socialized til I transitioned...

I like that comment about not going by chromosomes....that's awesome.

Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on October 05, 2010, 06:37:25 AMI like that comment about not going by chromosomes....that's awesome.

I found it a very interesting article. I don't know if this is a fluke of nature or if it happens more than we think. I stumbled across this article while reading science magazines.

Another thought on chromosomes. From an evolutionary timeframe the Y chromosome is new. Before it both males and females had XX chromosomes. These weren't hermaphroditic animals either- they were completely male or completely female and reproduced strictly sexually. A mutation happened of some kind that formed the Y chromosome. Scientists are now saying that they believe the Y chromosome will fade out- perhaps within 500 years.

I'm not sure about that but there is a good chance the Y chromosome will eventually disappear. My guess on how an XX creature could become male or female depends on the FoxL2 gene switched off during gestation.

Many animals today can change genders after being born- like some fish and reptiles. Usually it's when there's no males within an isolated group of females so the Alpha female transforms into a male that can reproduce.

The more science learns it seems the more fluid and variant gender can be. There seems to be no absolutes.

I know this topic has been posted before but here's a link to the FoxL2/Sox9 genes tests.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-12/gene-switch-transforms-adult-female-mice-males

Why i do not identify as trans.....

When I first came to realize that I was male, but my body was female, I was around the age of 4. I hadn't heard the term trans, transsexual, transgendered, transperson or anything trans. But I still identified as a male, but hade a female body.  The trans word did not exist for me, but my feelings where still very real.

When I was twelve I read an article in a magazine, I read about a guy who had the exact same feelings as I did. He also was male, but whit a female body.
The response he got was that he was probably a transsexual. Even though I didn't know what a transsexual was, I could relate to every aspect of this guy's story.  So if the professionals thought that he was transsexual, well then I thought I must be a transsexual also.  Even though I never felt like a transsexual before, just a man.  The professionals surly must know best.

Now, 24 years after reading the article, I see that I never felt like a transsexual, transgendered, or trans anything. My initial feeling was that I was a man in a female body. It was only when the professional said that I was transsexual, that I thought they must be right
.
My point is, I never saw myself as a trans anything, before someone told me that, that is what you are. So through the eyes of others, I may be trans..., but in my eyes I never was. I am only a boy, born in a girl's body.

And you know what, it's actually possible not to be stealth, and at the same time, not identifying as trans.  I have been open about my history as long as I can remember, no shame, no longer. And I can easily explain to people what I have gone through without using any trans words. But I must admit that I sometimes use the diagnosis name, transsexualism. But that Is because that is what the diagnose is called. The trans term is put out there by the professionals, not by us.

I don't intend on identifying as a cis male.  I will just identify as male and that's just fine.  To me cis male is just a sub division of male.  For example you can have white males, black, males, hispanic mailes, Indian males, Asian males, rich males, poor males, tall males, short males, fat males, fit males, gay males, straight males, etc. and the list goes on.  I just say that I am a male whose body is contoured to that of which is a biological female.