Hi,

in the decades before transition, I almost exclusively hung out with people who were at least one of the followings:

- multicultural (background)
- gay and bi males
- bi and lesbian girls,
- androgyne/bigendered/pre-/non-/post-everything transsexuals...
- one ex-boyfriend who was straight and homophobic (this put me to shame, but I loved him)
- punks
- people from the BDSM scene
- a few friendships from university (but all multicultural)
- people in wheelchairs or with other handicaps
- people with dissociative identity disorder such as I had
- their friends and lovers.

I did not ever plan to socialize mostly with such people. Hell, over and over again I made friends with people who I thought were "normal" and later they told me they were bi and felt like being both male and female etc.  So this is how I came to this list. You could find a pattern here: "people who aren't the most accepted by society in general though they're no criminals etc., and who have something in common with me." Tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are. Honestly, I could deal with only befriending people from such backgrounds for the rest of my life. However, I don't want to restrict myself artificially there. Plus if you have a job, you cannot choose your colleagues.

So here's my problem: as I usually avoided stumbling into "straight" non-multicultural scenarios, I felt like I had landed on another planet. Or vice-versa, I never got used to them and this was why I avoided them.I did not know how to socialize, I did not know how to behave etc. and even if I knew it, I did not like it. Well, I was just myself anyway and mostly got along with it. But it's a difference if you're just yourself or if you put your foot in it. I never really got that right, even in female mode. Now I am in male mode, a self-made man with hardly any experience in this matter... Ouch. And found out that I still don't feel at ease in this kind of surroundings.

So I don't have that much experience when it comes to socializing with "normal" straights in a setting which is not gender-fuzzy in at least one way (multi-cultural gender roles being different, genderqueer people present, blabla). I don't know if it's just a part of me being myself, being paranoid about neat gender-boxes, or a left-over of the decades living in the wrong body and having to find "niches"for me. But I also feel somewhat uncomfortable in plain straight surroundings (I had that problem before transition as well).

Well, if you have any suggestions about how to behave and what errors to avoid when dealing with straight males and females, go ahead. I had been at a party with mostly straights a couple of weeks ago and somehow felt clueless and alien there though people liked me. Part of that problem was the new social role and still not being quite adapted to it.

QuotePlus if you have a job, you cannot choose your colleagues.

If you have your own business you can.

QuoteSo I don't have that much experience when it comes to socializing with "normal" straights

That is very easy you do not expect or talk about sex or gender. It is not that important in life. There is always religion and politics to talk about. LOL

About 95% of this applies to me as well. I hope you can get some good advise because I'm in pretty much the same boat. 

I reckon you should embrace your non-conformist self.

The biggest error you could make is trying to be something you are not. Be proud of who you are and be yourself. I think being exotic is a good thing. If people get uncomfortable it is their problem not yours. Variety is the spice of life.

I don't see you having a problem. All those people you mixed with and are comfortable with are as normal as anyone else. They are just more honest.

Getting use to new social cues is always difficult. Strangely(?) I'm much more sociable as Cindy. I enjoy going out and meeting people. I hated doing that previously.

But also remember that normality is in the eye of the beholder. I suggest ,with very little evidence, that the majority of 'normal' people are not all that normal. They just try to fit in. How many homophobic religious/political leaders are found to be Gay? Now that homosexuality is more accepted in the community, how many people are more up front of their relationships. It is not uncommon, where I am at least, to be introduced to a person and their same gender partner.  How to relate to any group of people is probably the same. You are polite, interested and engaging. Exactly as you are with your other group of acquaintances.  I'm sure you didn't go to a BDSM  group and say, " Hi anyone been flogged or given a flog recently?" , or maybe you do . I've never been to one .

So much the same with your knew circle of friends.  Talk about theater, movies etc until you are comfortable. And remember good hosts and nice people try and draw other people into the conversation.

Cindy

Over the years I have come to realise that boring normality is an illusion.

Almost everyone you will meet has a dark or well hidden secret of the type that you list somewhere. It genuinely is that some people are better at concealing theirs than others.

So the thing is if you want to appear boring and normal all you have to do is take the goods off display and conceal them under the counter so to speak.

Heck some people I know IRL call me boring and normal - of course they don't know about my life on here etc.

To socialise with people in that way simply means signing up to the conventions that say that you will not say or do anything too provocative (unless perhaps directed against a social minority which obviously I am not actually advocating), you will not express any strong opinions (ditto), you will dress conservatively and appropriately etc etc - in other words normality isn't something you are - it's something you perform.

Echoing what the others said. Those people you meet who look normal? They're not.

Just be you. Don't be rude, don't be deliberately confrontational, but be honest and straightforward and stand up for who you are and what you believe in. Good people respect that and will reciprocate. Anyone who doesn't respect it isn't worth trying to impress.

I'll contradict what everyone else says and say the vast majority of people are depressing boringly normal...but it is nice being with them do long as they don't expect me to do too much of what is normal to them and watch boring telly, eat boring food and go to boring places.

Can't really add to what most have already said. I was thinking this while reading your post fencesitter.

Nothing worse than someone who tries to fit in. And that's comming from the biggest pouser ever. Though in my own defense, I'm a coward and don't socialise.

People who appear to be normal really just put too much effort into pretending to be.  Why would you want to be friends with them?  Friends are supposed to be the people that you have things in common with, enjoy being around you, and who respect and support each other.  Not the people  stuck up society deems normal.

QuoteHowever, I don't want to restrict myself artificially there.

Isn't that almost the same as what you want to be doing here?  If you need to ask how to socialize with "normals" in the first place,  its going to be artificial when you do hang out with them.  Just be yourself, and keep being friends with the people who's company you enjoy.

I'm the same with people I hang out with, most of my friends are super geeky, or queer, or play in punk bands, have multiple tattoos or piercings.  I have severe scoliosis, and the resulting rib cage and spinal deformity is pretty visible.  I don't know if that has pushed me toward the exotic group of people, but I like being a weird person, so its really not worth thinking about. I don't have any interest in being a boring normal.

Quote from: CindyJames on September 16, 2010, 04:16:06 AM
I'm sure you didn't go to a BDSM  group and say, " Hi anyone been flogged or given a flog recently?" , or maybe you do . I've never been to one .

haha... this made me LOL.

There's no such thing as normal...

Thank you a lot for your replies.

I get your points. And yes, I don't want to become "normal" at any cost.

It's just that I have always kept away from "normal" people since I was a teenager, or I rather mean, people who never had to face harsh prejudice by society. Maybe just because many of them never experienced being seen as an outsider in any way, and this is an experience which seems to be important to me when I bond to people - even if they come out to me with their "issues" only after a couple of months or years.  People who don't know what this is like as they just happen to be "normal" tend to be boring to me. They may be understanding and blabla, but they never experienced my experiences. Or I just have trouble bonding to them. And they tend to focus a lot of the communication on sh*t which does not matter to me. Status symbols etc. And talk for ages about it.

It gets even worse now than 10 or 15 years ago as I'm in my mid thirties. Most people of my age have settled down and founded a family and talk a lot about their kids. I can understand that, and I think having kids must be a great experience you want to share with others. Seeing first-hand how a new-born develops into a toddler into a kid etc. must be one of the most fasciating experiences of life, especially if you find parts of yourself mirrored in this kid. I even enjoy hearing about what they tell me, but I cannot contribute. And, well, I just don't like kids that much and don't feel like I want to reproduce or raise kids. And I don't want to hear endless story about that if it's all they talk about.

And I don't want to hide myself away or pretend I'm something that I'm not - though I am reluctant about outing myself as bi or trans. I only out myself as bi when I feel really safe. And if that works well, I may consider outing myself as trans...

But to boil down my problem into three sentences: I feel like I lack socialisation among "normal" people - and I don't know what is appropriate there and what not, and I don't know their rituals. Same as if I had to move suddenly to India, Japan or Chile. I cannot even ignore their rules when I feel like ignoring them - as I don't know which rules apply to them.

I want to at least know their "rules" so I don't make a fool of myself when I happen to get into such circles without wanting to. I want to adapt as much as I want, not more, but this is not easy if I don't even know their basic rituals and what is a no-go for them and what is just exotic. There have been a few occasions where I met such people. And I often behaved in a manner which is absolutely okay among my friends and sub-cultures but not among them, without knowing it was not appropriate until it was too late.

Sure, I could also say: "->-bleeped-<- the norm, I do whatever I want", but I don't want to miss out great people just because they don't adhere to *my* norm and may get appalled by my behavior without me even knowing that this might appall them. Well I was bullied at school as a teenager, and horribly bullied. Maybe this plays into what I go through now more than I want.

I grew up in San Francisco and had a similar experience of always being around diversity, 75% of my close friends were not born in the US, plus I grew up in the middle of the queer mecca that is the Castro in San Francisco. When I moved to Texas, I found that I was very uncomfortable around large groups of straight white people, it was weird. Now, at my current location, I am the only Caucasian person at work, and I feel so much more comfortable. For me diversity is the norm, and when I'm in a very homogeneous environment it's just weird! Give me diversity!!!

Normal is in the eyes of the beholder.  What is normal for one group of people is not for another.  In some groups you can get by with cussing and making sexy remarks and in other groups that would not be appropriate.  I have a friend that I can talk to about politics, religion, sexual orientation and basically be myself, but could never be that way around my folks, for example. 

You have to get to know the particular group you are in.  When you don't know, the best advice I have is to avoid discussing religion, politics, and anything sexual, be polite and think before you speak.  Eventually you will learn by observation what is and is not appropriate in a particular group.

Care to share examples of how things got awkward in the past?  It might help us better understand your situation.  Personally, I'm pretty shy and don't hang around groups of people.

Your experience rings true to me in some ways, too. I never immersed into mainstream high school society and soon after spent awhile in a therapy group that opened me to diverse people. Soon I had a great circle of friends nearly as diverse as the Fellowship of the Ring. That was a long time ago and I've never really tried very hard to fit into any "normal" (read "restrictive"/"exclusive"/"discriminatory") groups.

Such groups are easy to find. They're people who work together, belong to the PTA, go to the same church, belong to the country club, and so forth. I've brushed with such groups often and quickly realized it wasn't for me any more than high blood pressure, football games, and "tea party" meetings were for me. I far prefer a liberal circle of genders, geeks, minorities and non-conformists. I think if you tried fitting in with a more restrictive/discriminatory group, you'd quickly realize you've been with the right people all along. But you can certainly try it easily enough.

Lyric

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 16, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
Thank you a lot for your replies.

I get your points. And yes, I don't want to become "normal" at any cost.

It's just that I have always kept away from "normal" people since I was a teenager, or I rather mean, people who never had to face harsh prejudice by society. Maybe just because many of them never experienced being seen as an outsider in any way, and this is an experience which seems to be important to me when I bond to people - even if they come out to me with their "issues" only after a couple of months or years.  People who don't know what this is like as they just happen to be "normal" tend to be boring to me. They may be understanding and blabla, but they never experienced my experiences. Or I just have trouble bonding to them. And they tend to focus a lot of the communication on sh*t which does not matter to me. Status symbols etc. And talk for ages about it.

It gets even worse now than 10 or 15 years ago as I'm in my mid thirties. Most people of my age have settled down and founded a family and talk a lot about their kids. I can understand that, and I think having kids must be a great experience you want to share with others. Seeing first-hand how a new-born develops into a toddler into a kid etc. must be one of the most fasciating experiences of life, especially if you find parts of yourself mirrored in this kid. I even enjoy hearing about what they tell me, but I cannot contribute. And, well, I just don't like kids that much and don't feel like I want to reproduce or raise kids. And I don't want to hear endless story about that if it's all they talk about.

And I don't want to hide myself away or pretend I'm something that I'm not - though I am reluctant about outing myself as bi or trans. I only out myself as bi when I feel really safe. And if that works well, I may consider outing myself as trans...

But to boil down my problem into three sentences: I feel like I lack socialisation among "normal" people - and I don't know what is appropriate there and what not, and I don't know their rituals. Same as if I had to move suddenly to India, Japan or Chile. I cannot even ignore their rules when I feel like ignoring them - as I don't know which rules apply to them.

I want to at least know their "rules" so I don't make a fool of myself when I happen to get into such circles without wanting to. I want to adapt as much as I want, not more, but this is not easy if I don't even know their basic rituals and what is a no-go for them and what is just exotic. There have been a few occasions where I met such people. And I often behaved in a manner which is absolutely okay among my friends and sub-cultures but not among them, without knowing it was not appropriate until it was too late.

Sure, I could also say: "->-bleeped-<- the norm, I do whatever I want", but I don't want to miss out great people just because they don't adhere to *my* norm and may get appalled by my behavior without me even knowing that this might appall them. Well I was bullied at school as a teenager, and horribly bullied. Maybe this plays into what I go through now more than I want.

I'm not even sure if this kind of abnormal social behavior really even has anything to do with the fact that any of us have spent our lives around people with "alternative" lifestyles. I was a punker in my mid teens and even into my early 20's I was sporting a mohawk and leather jacket, but I don't see a connection between this and my desire for real conversation other than the possibility that people who are interested in other peoples' private lives are more apt to be drawn to those who break social norms.
It may just be impossible to learn to enjoy small talk if you don't already. From my perspective it seems as if part of the "ritual" is simply not to get too personal too quickly with people you don't know. It tends to make them uncomfortable. Myself, on the other hand, am only comfortable around people who are willing to be open immediately because that's the stuff that matters. Everything else is just conversational foreplay as far as I'm concerned, which I feel is useless and only wastes time. Especially when it never goes anywhere. It's like going to a conversation orgy and only getting verbal masturbation. Once you know what everyone else is missing it's hard going back without acquiring some brain damage first.

I agree always be true to your self.  Before I. Decided to be true to myself I only had 2 friends. Now that I am true to my self and living every day as a female I went from 2 friend's to 17. Friends including my friends kids that sees me as a female. My original 2 friends dropped me as a friend. But know I am true to my self I Have true friends all not gay but they consider me part of there family. Once you are true with your feelings everything falls onto place.  And all these kids mostly female is helping me in this transition with parent consent.  I guess I am lucky l. 

Quote from: Nicky on September 16, 2010, 12:32:36 AM
I reckon you should embrace your non-conformist self.

The biggest error you could make is trying to be something you are not. Be proud of who you are and be yourself. I think being exotic is a good thing. If people get uncomfortable it is their problem not yours. Variety is the spice of life.

I don't see you having a problem. All those people you mixed with and are comfortable with are as normal as anyone else. They are just more honest.

Hi Fencesitter,

are there any nightschools or activity groups you can join to get you talking to normal people that you don't usually interact with?
see if there are neighbourhood groups to join or attend. or any voluntary organisations that need helpers for various things.

QuoteI want to at least know their "rules" so I don't make a fool of myself when I happen to get into such circles without wanting to.

Join toastmasters.

Quote from: kyril on September 16, 2010, 06:27:11 AM
Echoing what the others said. Those people you meet who look normal? They're not.

Just be you. Don't be rude, don't be deliberately confrontational, but be honest and straightforward and stand up for who you are and what you believe in. Good people respect that and will reciprocate. Anyone who doesn't respect it isn't worth trying to impress.

Kyril is wise and intelligent, as he unfailingly is, and has spoken the truth.  I totally agree.

Sometimes, somebody is naturally just too far out for most people's tastes.  I offer up myself as a prime example of this kind of person.  Isn't it funny how much many people are either put off or threatened by somebody who is significantly outside the norm ... as they interpret the norm?  Thankfully, this IS changing for the better ... and evermore rapidly so. 

I think this is because people are rapidly waking up to the reality of what all of you have said here:  Everybody has their not-so-normal side.  What a wonderful world this would be if people could just let other people be themselves ... as long as they are not offending or hurting others.  Of course, no matter who you are, somebody out there will be offended by you.  That's just life.

Seems to me that society is getting much better about the live-and-let-live thing.  That's great news to me.  Hope this trend continues.   It's fun to be hopeful and optimistic ... even if we have to work at it sometimes.   Let's just be us and enjoy it.   

Ain't It Amazing Department:

Be a stand-out athlete, and people love you.  Be a stand-out intellect, and people hate you.

What's up with that?  Given the choice of being either football great Joe Montana or physics great Richard Feynman, I'd opt to be the latter every time.  Damn, Feynman had an awesome life ... and did alright with the babes too!       Joe Montana?  Great life too!  Could he throw the surgical-precision-ultra-pass or what?  Nobody did it better!  Greatest quarterback ever, if you ask me.  Then, again, there was Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Ken Stabler, Fran Tarkenton, Terry Bradshaw, Peyton Manning, John Elway ... going back a ways ... Otto Graham ... the list goes on!   Hey, it'd be WAY cool to be Joe Montana, I've gotta admit it!

Rock on, Joe Montana!  Off-topic and goin' crazy; sorry!       Let's just be our true selves!