I am a long term member at a forum with a near 100% female membership.    Last week I took a deep breath and announced in a thread that I had started HRT.   The response I got utterly dismayed me.   Even though I was out there - or so I thought for my entire time I had been there.  I discovered that the cisgendered population have really backward ideas about transsexuality.   
Some members thought that a transsexual was a gay man who wore 'ladies clothes' to attract men.  Others who thought themselves sophisticated privately laughed up their sleeves at the unworldliness of these posters and reply 'no dear, transsexuals are men mostly heterosexual who like to wear our clothes.'  Others did research and tried to lecture me an near-expert on the subject about transsexuality.  They had read an online article or two about the condition and considered themselves as knowledgeable as me!   I was asked to give information about 'transsexual boys and men'.  One woman told me all about a television programme that she had seen.  It was about  a transsexual man(her words)' he took hormones and he underwent the operation and he lived and dressed as a woman, even in public!'   This woman ended her post by saying if this man can live as a woman why can't you?    Even after SRS this woman still referred to the doctor as 'he' and 'him' and called 'him' a 'man' without the slightest awareness of what she was doing.  This woman simply did not consider the doctor to be a woman.  I was surprised that she didn't end her post by writing 'it took balls for that man to live the rest of his life as a woman'.  This was completely typical of the replies to my thread, not once did any woman use 'she' or 'her'.  I think these women are typical representatives of their gender and shows that perhaps to the great majority in the cisgendered population we really are just men in dresses.   Calling a mtf transsexual 'she' and 'her' is nothing more that patronising politeness with these people.  It is obvious that they don't really consider transsexuals women at all.   This patronising attitude is very like those liberals back in the 50s and 60s who went around saying 'of course I would allowed a negro into my house', and ' I like black people they have such white teeth and curly hair, don't they?  And they are natural dancers to.'  These people really thought that by saying those things they were proving how tolerant, accepting and non-racist they were.   Thankfully exceptionally few people would express such sentiments in public today.   However, most people don't feel the slightest bit embarrassed when expressing the crassest opinions regarding transsexuality. 
One woman wrote in so many words, ' I am sorry but I just find transsexuals disgusting they should 'grow up' and start being men which is what they are.'  There were women who were so utterly appalled by my taking female hormones that they couldn't get past this.  They would write 'yes but he is putting female hormones into his body', as if this was as dangerous as life got.  One thought that I should be forcibly stopped, others thought 'can we get in touch with his family - through the website Admin I suppose -  and tell them what is going on'?   I think that they thought I had very possibly gone mad.
In short not one single women there had a clue about transsexuality, but boy were they determined to prove the extent of their ignorance to me.   Every single reply was either wildly-inaccurate, crass, childish, or asinine.   To them I was either a soon to be circus freak, a pervert, or suffering from a mental illness.   I suppose I should be grateful that I wasn't denounced as 'an abomination of God' , or 'an imp of Satan' the religious members have stayed out of the thread so far. 
Julia Serano has written that transsexual liberation and public acceptance is 20 years behind gay and lesbian acceptance.   I think that is far too conservative a figure, I would say, judging by the opinions and attitudes of those women we are about 50 years at least away from public acceptance.   To illustrate this Serano gives this personal account.  She writes that when she comes out as a lesbian nobody is visibly shocked or confrontational.  However, she continues, when she comes out as transsexual, she is immediately bombarded by highly personal questions, and there is very often a confrontational feeling in the air.   People  are so offended and disturbed by the idea of a 'man' wanting to become a woman,* that they simply cannot hide their anger and it seems that they think that by questioning the transsexual they can show her to be mistaken in her belief that she is a woman and put her 'straight'.

I am glad to get that off my chest.  I thought that I had built up close, multi-layered relationships with those women.  Then I find out that all along they thought I was just a guy who wore 'ladies clothes'. 


* None of these women have the slightest idea of the existence of ftm transsexuals, and reading between the lines quite a few consider transsexuality to be a soley a guy-thing and a 'pervy-guy thing' at that.

The public in general are totally ignorant and uneducated about trans issues and think this is a choice we choose to make if we want to. They don't think for one minute that we have no choice in the matter. They will never appreciate that we can't avoid making the decisions we make for our own sanity. To them it's a superficial choice we can choose to make or not make-like whether or not to wash my hair today. Most won't care if another of us takes his or her own life because the pressures are too great for the person to bear. We are a threat (in their eyes) to their sexuality and they don't like it because it makes them question the status of their sexuality/gender presentations.
What they (most) will not recognize is we are in a position to challenge the status quo society clings onto regarding the gender binary. Stand tall and proud-slowly but surely we are making it happen!
Randi

Do we have to tell everyone our past?  I don't think every friend or acquaintance should know that I was born the wrong gender. However, I'm not ashamed over who I once was.  Really when I look back I was always a women, it was just that when I was younger I let other people define me.

They will never believe that they have a mental illness called a phobia, but it is in the same book.

Cis people are just ignorant of the facts. Period. 

Oh And Congratz on the HRT.

if only they knew or cared what their ignorance and phobias did to people

Due to the nature of the community in which I live, I have precious little luxury of just living my life in peace about this stuff. And my experience is that, while most people treat me in a quite civil manner after the drama has blown over, most still assume all these crazy things about me & think of me as some guy with an objectionable lifestyle they tolerate.

Even that I can live with most of the time, but the lack of dignity with which I am regarded has devastating consequences when it matters most.

If I want future generations to catch any slack at all, I have to really stretch myself to be an ever better person under really adverse conditions, even when a middle finger would be far preferable.

We have quite some ways to go.

There was a report tonight on TV about Jon Stewart's  'Rally for Sanity'.  Lots of interesting signs representing real or imaginary groups attending.

Mine, being a student of history and basically conservative politically, would have been something like " Transgender Daughters of Robert.E.Lee"!

Partly to screw with peoples heads, but also because he was a genuine Southern Gentleman, in the best sense of the word. 

From my reading I am sure that , having been convinced of the validity of transexuals gender identity, Lee would have raised his hat to a trans-lady, and offered his hand to a trans-man without a qualm.

He would certainly have defended a lady's honour against those who were rude to her and sent his second round to Fred Phelps for pistols at dawn.  It is a pity that his sort seem to have vanished from society today.

Quote from: SydneyTinker on November 07, 2010, 06:03:00 AM
Due to the nature of the community in which I live, I have precious little luxury of just living my life in peace about this stuff. And my experience is that, while most people treat me in a quite civil manner after the drama has blown over, most still assume all these crazy things about me & think of me as some guy with an objectionable lifestyle they tolerate.

Even that I can live with most of the time, but the lack of dignity with which I am regarded has devastating consequences when it matters most.

If I want future generations to catch any slack at all, I have to really stretch myself to be an ever better person under really adverse conditions, even when a middle finger would be far preferable.

We have quite some ways to go.

@ SydneyTinker:

My heart goes out to you; it really does.  You are so right in what you say here, really.  Yes, I get that too, and I'm well aware that most folks think I'm some way-out nutso.  Lack of dignity and lack of respectful and civil treatment?  All the time ... ALL the time.  Drives me crazy; it really does.  You are not alone here, hon, by any means.  I get that same abominable treatment too just like you do. 

I totally admire you for reacting by being a BETTER person back at them and treating them with a dignity and respect as a response to their rudeness and stupidity that they DO NOT deserve.  I do that to, but it REALLY takes all the self-control we can muster to do it.  When I was young, there was huge prejudice against blacks.  The most awesome blacks would treat people extra well ... whenever those same people treated them like crap.  To me, these blacks were AWESOME!  What you are doing is what they did, and I commend you for it. 

Have you ever thought that we transpeople are very special?  I mean, we tend to be very tolerant, very open-minded, very smart.  What do we often find in the general society?  Bigotry, close-mindedness and stupidity.  Often, I feel like a "stranger in a strange land" (Title of a book by Arthur C. Clarke years ago.) out among "regular people."  Add to their negative traits listed here the fact that many of them are just plain "dim bulbs," and being among them is SUCH a drag. 

We can become reclusive because of this.  Sadly, I have.  Surely, I'm not the only one.  Thankfully, forums like Susan's Place exist where one can find an open-minded and intelligent society.  Many of us would flip out without an outlet such as this.  I think I would. 

Have you ever felt that society is evolving ... BACKWARDS?  I know I certainly have.  Ignore me:  I'm venting.  Keep the faith, hon!   

LaceyLynne, the book is actually written by Robert Heinlein. I had to stop reading it because it expressed views such as "it is the man's job to have opinions, and the women shall be silent and servants and always ready for sex", and that anyone who isn't a "real man's man" or a "woman's woman" is wrong and disturbed and must be corrected.

...yeah. Sorry, my AS got the best of me again.

Quote from: PixieBoy on December 06, 2010, 03:40:07 AM
LaceyLynne, the book is actually written by Robert Heinlein. I had to stop reading it because it expressed views such as "it is the man's job to have opinions, and the women shall be silent and servants and always ready for sex", and that anyone who isn't a "real man's man" or a "woman's woman" is wrong and disturbed and must be corrected.

...yeah. Sorry, my AS got the best of me again.

Yes, it IS Robert Heinlein ... you're RIGHT!  Hoo ha!  I messed up, man.   

Well, that proves it ... I'm gettin' old.  See what happens to your memory?  Robert Heinlein it is!  I always liked Arthur C. Clarke myself, so I guess that's why I thought that ... dumb me!   

When I actually read the book, it was sometime in the early-1970s ... like 40 years ago.       Elias, the attitudes expressed in there like you quoted here were the way it REALLY was back then.  No joke.  See what we old-timers mean when we talk about "the good old days?"  Sure, they were good in some ways, but attitudes REALLY sucked back then.  Be glad you didn't have to live through that!

Thanks for the correction, dude!  Gettin' old is a drag, but smile your way through when it happens to you ... all you can do.        Keep a watch on me, man ... never know what the heck I'll think next.   

Firstly, I apologise for not reading this thread before. Stephanie raises some intersting points and I confess, i was smiling somewhat, with the familiarity of it all.

But one point I would like to raise.

Quotewent around saying 'of course I would allowed a negro into my house', and ' I like black people they have such white teeth and curly hair, don't they?  And they are natural dancers to.'

As sick and offensive as that statement was, it did demonstrate a shift from previous positions, expressed by some, while most kept silent, for fear.

As maddening as the attitudes expressed by those people in your other forum are, they are, never-the-less, a shift from the open hostility which was, perhaps, more typical of times past.

QuoteI suppose I should be grateful that I wasn't denounced as 'an abomination of God' , or 'an imp of Satan' the religious members have stayed out of the thread so far.   

That this group did stay out is a positive sign. Assuming they continue to hold their silly ideas, they have chosen, on this occasion, not to express them, presumably out of fear of being marginalised by the psuedo liberals who say the likes of:

Quoteif this man can live as a woman why can't you?

Nice post Stephanie. Really enjoyed it.

Hi all, I find it interesting that you bring up Stranger in a Strange Land-R Heinlein is one of my favorite science fiction writers and I have a copy of it in my library. Reading this reminded me how much I wanted to be female but was always going to face opposition from those who don't have a clue about the real meaning of 'gender'. That is the reason I bought it.
We have to understand that the ignorant must speak out of ignorance and will not address us properly because they can't. Please try to find acceptance in some of what they say even if it hurts. As someone much more tolerant than me said-"If they are not against us-they are for us". I say this not to step on any toes or make anyone uncomfortable. I try to look beyond the ignorance of the masses and find that small bit of acceptance-even if it isn't in the form I would like to see.
We live in a society full of hatred and bigotry. There will always be those who will define people by what is between their legs. I think there are more of them than not. When the ignorant are the majority the entire society suffers-this is where I believe the world at large is today-filled with ignorant people making ignorant decisions on a global scale that influences the entire global population.
We must be able to transcend this mentality and rise above it. No I do not think we will gain overall public acceptance in the short term but we can make a difference. I hope and pray that the little I am able to do here where I live will make a difference for those who come after I am gone from this world.

Randi

@ Randi:

Hon, you've truly deeply struck a chord with me with this post which resonates to the very depths of my soul.  I agree with everything you said just above.  Combine transsexuality with high intelligence, and you've got a recipe for a Twilight Zone existence.  Many of us here know exactly what this is like.  The truth be told, it's maddening. 

What you say here about the stupidity and bigotry of the masses is all too true and very painfully yet irretrievably so.  Add to the mix rule of society by some very clever and very ruthless people with bad intentions for most everybody not of their class, and you've got a prescription for hell on earth.  Just look around:  That's what we've got.

Usually, my posts are upbeat, positive and supportive.  However, the time comes now and again to be realistic about the world in which we live.  It is a very sad state of affairs ... for people of all ages.  The best part is:  It does NOT have to be this way.  I'll stop here, because I don't want to bum anybody out.

May I simply say that love is the only truth.  That's easy enough to understand.  The hard part is getting the ruling classes and the masses to understand this.  Will that ever happen?  Not in the next several lifetimes.  If I could somehow magically transform our world into a loving and supportive one, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Peace.       Lacey

Have you ever thought that we transpeople are very special?  I mean, we tend to be very tolerant, very open-minded, very smart.

That is referred to as 'exceptionalism' and it's rarely true.  I see tons of intolerant thought in here, lots of closed-minded thinking, and 'very smart' must not include being able to write clearly and correctly.

I think that trans people are rather special... Whether mentally gifted or otherwise... We put up with allot of stuff... Not only from the bigoted world around us, but from the scrutiny of our own kind

Quote from: Stephanie on October 05, 2010, 08:13:16 PM
I am a long term member at a forum with a near 100% female membership.

I am as well, but had completely the opposite experience. In fact I have yet to meet a single person whom openly resists my change. I must be lucky, but oh how I wish I could just run into one of these people and give them a sound intellectual thrashing.

Point: Your experience was bad, but we are certainly much closer than 50 years away from acceptance, but it really boils down to the company you keep, ya know?

Quote from: PixieBoy on December 06, 2010, 03:40:07 AM
LaceyLynne, the book is actually written by Robert Heinlein. I had to stop reading it because it expressed views such as "it is the man's job to have opinions, and the women shall be silent and servants and always ready for sex", and that anyone who isn't a "real man's man" or a "woman's woman" is wrong and disturbed and must be corrected.

But thats just how Heinlein rolled..... well that and having his lead male characters screw and marry younger female relatives... or clones of younger female relatives... odd mind there..

@ Stephanie  Well I suppose you could always tell them about FtM's and see what happens..