Consider the term Gender Identity Disorder.  It is listed in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the book mental health professionals use to help them with treatment of their patients.

Consider what most of us know.  This is NOT a mental disorder.  This is a physical condition.  Even the DSM says the recommended treatment for transsexuals is changing the physical self, not psychotherapy.  So why is it listed as a mental disorder?  Egos unable to admit they are wrong?

Right now, for the most part, classification and treatment of gender identity issues are determined by non TG persons, people who have no idea what this really is.  And every time they try to treat us their way they find yet another facet of our lives they couldn't see and they retreat to their conventions and discuss how they will treat us.  They rarely ask us.  Oh, that's right, we're nuts.

It's pretty obvious the powers that be are either clueless or just too proud to admit they are wrong and have been for decades.  While these people have tried to classify us as mental cases we have been showing them just how sane we are and that we've known all along what we need.

I guess we are making fools of them.  They just can't see it.  Yet!

Julie

Hopefully they will remove transsexualism from the DSM when they update it in 2011.  Although I don't agree that transsexualism is a mental disorder, I must say that this diagnosis has helped several TS people in the past, for they have been able to keep their jobs and get state benefits based on this mental illness.  I don't know if this has been the case nationwide, but in California, I've seen it happen many times.  Sadly, it only lasted for a limited period of time since some people were abusing the system as usual.


tinkerbell

QuoteConsider what most of us know.  This is NOT a mental disorder.  This is a physical condition.  Even the DSM says the recommended treatment for transsexuals is changing the physical self, not psychotherapy.  So why is it listed as a mental disorder?  Egos unable to admit they are wrong?

Correction - what most of us believe  There is no physical illness or physiological evidence to prove conclusively that transsexualism exists anywhere other than the mind, anymore than a person suffering from body dysmorphia believes they were born with an incorrect body.
Trying to describe transsexualism as a physical condition and for example (see another recent thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8355.0.html) threatening to mutilate onself if 'required' treatment is not administered merely solidifies the opinion that it is a mental disorder. In other words, if one 'acts insane', one can expect to be treated as such*

QuoteRight now, for the most part, classification and treatment of gender identity issues are determined by non TG persons, people who have no idea what this really is.  And every time they try to treat us their way they find yet another facet of our lives they couldn't see and they retreat to their conventions and discuss how they will treat us.  They rarely ask us.  Oh, that's right, we're nuts.

Would we rather that all classification and treatment be determined by TG people?  In case it bore repeating, the DSM does not make diagnoses for people. It is based on the work that has already taken place in the medical profession, helping and treating people such as the very TG folks here at Susans.  It is a guideline at best. 

*To clarify - I am not labelling anyone insane - I am merely commenting on the manner in which one's problems are presented.

Quote from: Melissa on July 02, 2006, 11:18:51 PM
I wouldn't describe it as mentally ill either.  I would describe transitioning as making changes in order to feel more comfortable with yourself which was caused by a condition of having a different body than you feel you should have.  It's the differences between what you are and what you had that create the dysphoria.  In other words, the dysphoria is a mental condition that is indirectly caused by having the wrong body.  We are not working to cure the dysphoria itself (which is mental), but rather the cause of the dysphoria (which is physical).  Since we are not mentally ill to begin with, the dysphoria will subside as a result.

Melissa

Quote...and don't criticize what you can't understand,
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin',
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand,
For the times they are a-changin'.

What a lovely signature!  a song? poem?  Oops!  sorry, I'm way off topic again.

tinkerbell

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 11, 2006, 12:35:10 AM

Quote...and don't criticize what you can't understand,
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin',
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand,
For the times they are a-changin'.

What a lovely signature!  a song? poem?  Oops!  sorry, I'm way off topic again.

tinkerbell

Bob Dylan

Julie,

Personally, I agree with you in so many ways.  But let me tell you something.  We all desperately need therapy as we find our way.  Some of us are absolutely looney.  The need for therapy is absolutely real.

Cindi

Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 12:22:26 AM

Quote
Consider what most of us know.  This is NOT a mental disorder.  This is a physical condition.  Even the DSM says the recommended treatment for transsexuals is changing the physical self, not psychotherapy.

Correction - what most of us believe  There is no physical illness or physiological evidence to prove conclusively that transexualism exists anywhere other than the mind, anymore than a person suffering from body dysmorphia believes they were born with an incorrect body.

Your statement is incorrect.  There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that proves transsexualism exists in the mind. 

In spite of all the studies done, in spite of all the 'patients' treated, there is also no conclusive evidence that anything other than changing the physical self solves the dysphoria.  And mental health professionals who specialize in gender identity issues, all over the world, agree.  That indicates the condition is physical and not mental.

Further proof indicating this may be physical comes from a study done to measure a chemical on the brain called BTSc.  The study included heterosexual males, homosexual males, MTF transsexuals and females.  This chemical in the brains of males is considerably higher than in females.  There was no difference between heterosexual and homosexual males.  But the levels in MTF transsexuals was the same or less than that of natal females.  This is not considered conclusive but it does give way to the probability that there is a physical reason for mind-body gender conflict.

Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 12:22:26 AMWould we rather that all classification and treatment be determined by TG people?  In case it bore repeating, the DSM does not make diagnoses for people. It is based on the work that has already taken place in the medical profession, helping and treating people such as the very TG folks here at Susans.  It is a guideline at best.

If you were to go seek marriage counseling would you go to a counselor who has never been married in his/her life and who has learned everything about marriage through people who may have treated married couples but have never been married themselves?  Or would you rather go to someone who can relate, someone who knows what it's like to be married, someone who has learned from others who have been married?

Including TGs, not as Guinea pigs but as contributors, in the studies and the process of establishing guidelines is just common sense.  Not all TGs are capable of providing beneficial input and neither are all therapists.  One only needs to be able to view this objectively.  This isn't rocket science.  It's simple logic.  Take the people who KNOW the life and have shown they are level headed, clear thinkers and LISTEN to them.  It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to apply common sense.

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 11, 2006, 01:21:07 AMJulie,

Personally, I agree with you in so many ways.  But let me tell you something.  We all desperately need therapy as we find our way.  Some of us are absolutely looney.  The need for therapy is absolutely real.

Cindi

You're right Cindi.  For some this is absolutely true.  But on the other hand, the same can be said for the general population.  I've met more mainstreamers who I felt could benefit from therapy than I can count.  And when assessing a TGs need for therapy we also have to consider we were born into a society that refuses to accept us for who we are and that pressures us to conform to a lifestyle we feel uncomfortable with.  That alone would drive anyone into therapy.

If one were to sit back and imagine a world where people were accepted for who they are, without prejudice, without persecution, without discrimination.  (For the Devil's Advocates: Do I need to add as long as we do no harm to others?)  If we lived in this world would there even be any debate about this?  This forum wouldn't exist because there would be no need for it.  'Gender' wouldn't be an adjective for 'therapist'.  Change society to be accepting and open minded and virtually all the problems vanish. 

This isn't a mental disorder, it's a societal snafu.

Julie

Many "mental" illness have a strong foundation in biological abnormalities, i.e. excessive action of dopamine in the is implicated in schizophrenia, lack of serotonin re-uptake is believed prevalent in major depressive disorder.  This hasn't been definitively proven, however.

It just seems like understanding of psychological illness is working backward...where symptoms seem to be an illness of the mental state, but are actually a result of a physicological state. I feel confident that all of the "mental" illlnesses will become classified as physical disorders eventually. Now, how long that will take is a completely different story.

Just my two cents!

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 11, 2006, 08:23:03 AMFurther proof indicating this may be physical comes from a study done to measure a chemical on the brain called BTSc.

Actually the BSTc is a region of the brain, not a chemical. (In fact, I have the link to the article.) If all it took was a chemical to turn the brain male then that'd be the usual treatment (scary thought IMO!) but it's actually in how we're wired.

So it's really a physiological mismatch between brain and body, not just mind and body.

From what I understand of psychology, the patient is someone who is not functioning well as a person and give them whatever is necessary to help them become functional. Even if the condition itself is not cured; I've heard of people with hallucinations (this is just an example - not comparing here) who live their lives continuing to hallucinate because as long as they recognize what isn't real they know what to ignore. So even if some professionals believe (and I don't know whether they really do or not, but just saying hypothetically if) that we're crazy, at least the empirical evidence shows that when we're allowed to change our bodies we generally become able to function. I suspect that may be why GID is still in the DSM.

Quote from: angelsgirl on December 11, 2006, 09:56:02 AM
lack of serotonin re-uptake is believed prevalent in major depressive disorder.

I believe it's actually excessive serotonin re-uptake that is the cause.  SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) actually limit the amount that it reuptaken.

Melissa

I was never Mentally or Physically Ill.... I corrected a mistake of nature. How it occured may eventually be known but society need to accept that this happens.

There are no experts in GID, to be an expert you have to experience and live with the pain... I feel the same about midwives who have not had babies...

Buffy

I do not suffer from GID, I LOVE every minute of it. 

Quote from: umop ap!sdn on December 11, 2006, 11:28:22 AM

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 11, 2006, 08:23:03 AMFurther proof indicating this may be physical comes from a study done to measure a chemical on the brain called BTSc.

Actually the BSTc is a region of the brain, not a chemical. (In fact, I have the link to the article.) If all it took was a chemical to turn the brain male then that'd be the usual treatment (scary thought IMO!) but it's actually in how we're wired.

So it's really a physiological mismatch between brain and body, not just mind and body.

From what I understand of psychology, the patient is someone who is not functioning well as a person and give them whatever is necessary to help them become functional. Even if the condition itself is not cured; I've heard of people with hallucinations (this is just an example - not comparing here) who live their lives continuing to hallucinate because as long as they recognize what isn't real they know what to ignore. So even if some professionals believe (and I don't know whether they really do or not, but just saying hypothetically if) that we're crazy, at least the empirical evidence shows that when we're allowed to change our bodies we generally become able to function. I suspect that may be why GID is still in the DSM.

Thanks for the correction.  It's been a while since I read the article.

People don't function well in a society that keeps them prisoner, discriminates against them, shows prejudice or hatred towards them or tries to make them something they are not (can we say brainwashing?)  That's why I see this as a problem created by society.  And, it seems, the so called "experts", by and large, subscribe to society's rules of conforming.  These people are supposed to analyze things objectively but if they are influenced strongly by rules which have no basis in logic, how can they ever see the situation for what it is.

That's why I feel we are making fools of them they are making fools of themselves.  There will come a time when the 'rules' will be changed to reflect reality but it baffles me why it takes so long.  Is it pride?  Ego?  Or simply a serious inability to walk a mile in someone else's shoes?

Julie

QuoteYour statement is incorrect.  There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that proves transsexualism exists in the mind. 

You misread my statement.  I said there is no conclusive evidence that transsexualism is a physiological disorder.  The only thing that makes this condition 'physiological' is the belief, the assumption, that one has a mind that does not match one's body.  The body functions perfectly well and it shows no signs of defect so far as the average human body is concerned. In other words, the transsexual individual defers all blame to a non-existent concept of an idealised body.

Regarding brain chemistry and assuming there really is such a thing as a 'female brain', there is no evidence to demonstrate that this necessarily contributes to mind-body conflict.
At best it might indicate that a 'female brain' has a predisposition to certain behaviors/attitudes that are not typical for a 'male brain'.  It is a BIG leap to then suggest that the brain contains a genetically preconceived idea of the 'correct' body.  Put simply, the MtF Transsexual does not and cannot know what it means to have a natal female body ie to have experienced the physicality of a female body from birth.  One cannot conclusively say that their problem is biological.

QuoteIf you were to go seek marriage counseling would you go to a counselor who has never been married in his/her life and who has learned everything about marriage through people who may have treated married couples but have never been married themselves?  Or would you rather go to someone who can relate, someone who knows what it's like to be married, someone who has learned from others who have been married?

Including TGs, not as Guinea pigs but as contributors, in the studies and the process of establishing guidelines is just common sense.  Not all TGs are capable of providing beneficial input and neither are all therapists.  One only needs to be able to view this objectively.  This isn't rocket science.  It's simple logic.  Take the people who KNOW the life and have shown they are level headed, clear thinkers and LISTEN to them.  It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to apply common sense.

Must every doctor who treats HIV patients be HIV positive?  Must those who treat Alzheimer's and other dementias suffer from the same condition? Must all
Ob/Gyns be female?  Must all SRS surgeons undergo SRS themselves?
This makes the assumption that the medical profession is working against Transsexual individuals rather than attempting to work for them.  In the end, attempting to discredit doctors and psychiatrists when one does not hear corroborating evidence or conclusions that further one's own beliefs and desires, does the transgendered community more harm than good.

No one is denying TS people their beliefs. No one is saying that the misery they endure is not real.  If SRS and hormones can make people's lives more comfortable, then please do go and talk to your therapist, psychiatrist or doctor. What I can't accept is this anti-intellectual stance that seeks to define medical diagnosis, procedure and treatment without the scientific rigor that such a serious issue deserves.

There was a similar thread a while back, and I am going to quote two of the posts here:

Quote from: DawnL on August 27, 2006, 08:46:17 PM

Quote from: elleane on August 27, 2006, 03:33:46 AM
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly what you mean.
I must say that I'm increasingly concerned about the use of the term 'Gender Dysphoria'.  An implied incongruity between mind and body.

The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind.
Apples and oranges.

If you are suggesting that one is 'born into the wrong body'; that somehow one's physical attributes are incorrect and that surgical alteration is the solution, then in my mind that lies far nearer body dysmorphia than gender dysphoria. 
(and yes I'm aware of the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the TS community, to dispute this notion)

elleane
xxx

Wow!  "The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind. Apples and oranges."

Funny, they're all connected together, more like the apple and the tree or the orange and the tree than apples and oranges.  Your metaphor is suspect and very inflammatory.  Body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria.  Maybe they're the same thing.  One can have many body dysmorphias but perhaps when gender is involved, gender dysphoria is the result, maybe a subset of body dysmorphia.  Fact is, they're all stupid labels.  If a man or woman is considering ending their life because of a life-long dysphoria/dysmorphia, I don't really care what you call it, and if surgery is the cure, then surgery is the cure, the same for a heart bypass patient--the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the non-TS, doubting, bigoted community aside.

Dawn

Quote from: Steph on August 27, 2006, 11:09:41 AM
I'm sorry but if feel that this is another example of those who do not understand TS/who cannot possibly be expected to understand what TS are, what makes us tick trying to define "Us".  I find it quite interesting that people have this need to explain to me how I feel, and how I should feel about my body, my mind and any other "thing" that causes my disphoria, if that is in fact what I have.

I think it is safe to say that we transsexuals have endured several hundred years of collective therapy and yet the only viable explanation is that "body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the TS community", and why shouldn't we as TS use that body of work.  I find the remark "Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly what you mean.  " a little typical of someone who is not TS as "An implied incongruity between mind and body."  seems imply that we don't know what we are talking about.  Of course "The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind." we are talking about the congruency between the two (in agreement with, or in harmony with) that is the disphoria.

Steph

You can see the rest of the posts here

BananaSlug, you made excellent points in your post; however, as a transsexual woman myself, all I can say is that the human mind is more complex than whatever is written on a medical journal.  Sometimes we just can't categorize what we are or what we feel in black and white, especially when we talk about gender, for its complexities are beyond what we can sometimes comprehend.


tinkerbell

Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 11:10:43 PMIt is a BIG leap to then suggest that the brain contains a genetically preconceived idea of the 'correct' body.

Not necessarily. I don't see any reason why it would be genetic per se, but there is already evidence that the brain is wired to "expect" specific anatomical features. For example, amputees report that they can still feel their limbs; their brains "expect" them to still be there. A region of the brain has been found that, when it is damaged in patients who have had strokes or other lesions to that area, produces the opposite phenomenon: a limb becomes foreign to the patient, and they insist it's someone else's. Given that information, it isn't such a farfetched idea that brains might be sex differentiated, expecting one or the other suite of primary and secondary characteristics.

Thank you Tinkerbell for pointing me to that thread. I found it quite enlightening.

Two words come to mind:- Good Lord! 
It's the gospel according to Transsexualism!
I cannot believe what I am hearing from people who claim to be enlightened regarding their gender and body.
Only TS people can understand what TS means and only TS people know how they should be treated.
Here endeth the lesson?



Posted on: December 12, 2006, 01:07:16 AM

---

Quote from: umop ap!sdn on December 12, 2006, 12:55:43 AM

Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 11:10:43 PMIt is a BIG leap to then suggest that the brain contains a genetically preconceived idea of the 'correct' body.

Not necessarily. I don't see any reason why it would be genetic per se, but there is already evidence that the brain is wired to "expect" specific anatomical features. For example, amputees report that they can still feel their limbs; their brains "expect" them to still be there. A region of the brain has been found that, when it is damaged in patients who have had strokes or other lesions to that area, produces the opposite phenomenon: a limb becomes foreign to the patient, and they insist it's someone else's. Given that information, it isn't such a farfetched idea that brains might be sex differentiated, expecting one or the other suite of primary and secondary characteristics.

It is one thing to argue in the case of an amputee but another entirely to discuss a body which never existed in the first place.  You cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.  If the premise is that one has the incorrect brain for the body, one must ask why it seems that the transition process, the day-to-day trials and tribulations of the TS person with all their physical changes and efforts to 'pass' seem to be such a difficult part of RLT. Or do we blame that on society?

A female body may be more comfortable for whatever reasons to the MtF transsexual but to say that their male body is a birth defect is a big leap.

bannanaslug, if you need conclusive evidence for everything in your life before you accept it then be prepared for a life of cynicism.  The analogies you've given can be debated endlessly because we are all unique creatures.  What applies for one person may not apply for any other person on this earth. 

The general consensus is non-TS persons have no idea what it's like being TS.  You can argue that until you're blue in the face but practically every TS person will tell you're wrong.  When sane. logical transsexual people tell the medical and mental health professionals they need to re-evaluate their treatment of transsexuals, the professionals, if they care at all about helping their patients, need to listen and then take action to correct their treatment.

The mind is a very complex and misunderstood part of us.  People can be in therapy for years before they get to the bottom of what's bothering them.  If you went to a doctor for a physical ailment how long would you continue treatment that showed no results before finding another doctor?

We KNOW what's bothering us.  We KNOW what the solution is.  It's been proven time and time again.  When you find a cure, use it!  To further complicate matters by saying we "think" or "believe" is counter productive.  You may think or you may believe but we know!  And you can write all the words you wish to convince us you're right but it will fall on deaf ears. 

When you're thirsty, drink water.  If someone tells you water doesn't cure thirst you'll probably laugh in their face.

Julie

Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AMYou cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.

I disagree. You seem to be saying that one cannot assert that a person's brain is ideally suited to specific anatomical features until and unless that brain receives genuine sensory input from exactly such features. In fact, that just doesn't follow.