I was at a bar earlier which is popular for gay men and trans women. I was chit-chatting with a transwoman about the TDOR (Transgender Day of Remembrance) coming up. Some man inserted himself in the conversation and started saying how trans people should not be putting ourselves at risk. At first it sounded like he was giving constructive advice and I was discussing the issue with him. Then he just became outright stupid and called TGism a choice and that we don't have to dress the way we do, etc. I started yelling at him. I told him he is a "piece of sh*t" and to "never talk to me again." I then went over to some friends and started ranting and raving loudly that this person should be thrown out, has no business being in a bar like that if they have a problem with TG people, etc. My blood was boiling to the point where I so wanted to assault him but several people calmed me down. The funny thing was that I looked over where he had been sitting and the guy was suddenly gone. I was so mad I actually ended up looking all over the bar including the patio and parking lot and he was nowhere to be found. I guess he knew I was mad and got scared and left.

I'm so freaking sick of the GLBT community because it is a bold-faced LIE. With a few exceptions here and there, the gay community does NOT accept the trans community. It should be called the GLB community. These gay bars have drag show after drag show all benefitting the same HIV/AIDS charities but you never hear a word about supporting something like the TDOR or trans issues. It is always about AIDS. I've always believed that actions speak louder than words. Stop calling it GLBT and claiming you accept the trans community when your actions show otherwise. This is not the first time I've run into extremely hostile anti-trans attitudes from gay men. Additionally, the truth is often found not in the things you see and hear but in the things you don't see or hear. HIV/AIDS is not my issue just as much as my TGism is not a gay man's issue. I'm somewhat convinced that there should be a parting of the ways. No more GLBT. Let the GLB fight their causes and we (the T) fight ours. If you are a transwoman and lesbian then fight for trans rights and lesbian rights as separate issues. They don't support us anyway and I don't see why I should support them. If anyone thinks I'm being arrogant here, look at one other stunning reality: whenever a human rights group tries to get a law passed protecting the GLBT community when negociations get started the T part is always the first that is dropped. A human rights group will put together a bill covering "sexual orientation" and "gender identity" but will drop the "gender identity" part instantly so that they can get the "sexual orientation" part passed.

Many don't want to admit it and I'm sure this post is contraversial but the truth is not always roses and honey.

I agree perfectly though I have been barred from other forums for saying what you say.
I was LGBT rep at work but I gave up after a few meetings because LGBT stuff was nothing to do with TS stuff. 
I did have a couple of stand up arguments with very butch lesbians over what was the more serious: the rape of a TS or the rape of a GG.

Quote from: lilacwoman on October 18, 2010, 03:01:18 AM
I agree perfectly though I have been barred from other forums for saying what you say.
I was LGBT rep at work but I gave up after a few meetings because LGBT stuff was nothing to do with TS stuff. 
I did have a couple of stand up arguments with very butch lesbians over what was the more serious: the rape of a TS or the rape of a GG.

I would say they are equally serious... and I think I'd kinda be pissed at anyone from either side who suggests otherwords. 

Its a fallacy to assume that all gay, lesbian, bi and trans people will have any sympathy or understanding, let alone affection for one another, just because they/we can all be bundled by politicians into a box marked 'Not Straight Like Normal Folks'.

I know gay guys who are shockingly misogynistic. I know gay guys who can cope with women, but can't understand lesbianism. As one friend of mine, who is well known for his public gay activism said, 'I simply can't see the point of sex when there isn't at least one cock in the bed.'

I know lesbians who are grotesquely prejudiced against men and make generalizations about the evil violence, abusiveness, phallocentricity, et, etc of all men that are no more than bigoted demonization.

You only have to spend five minute on any TG forum to discover that there are often very sharp differences of opinion on who or what constitutes a 'real' transsexual, or what attitudes disqualify someone from being one.

And the reason for all this is very simple: we're all people. Whatever or orientation or gender, we are equally liable to want to join some groups and oppose others. We all have conscious or unconscious assumptions and prejudices. We are all capable of bad as well as good, mean as well as kind, bigotry as well as tolerance.

And we can all be ->-bleeped-<-s, just like some foolish queen in a gay bar who thinks that we get to 'choose' how we are, any more than he does ...

Carlita said it better than I could all I would add is that there are also no shortage of homophobic TS people and I would actually point out to the OP that HIV/AIDS is everybody's issue, or at least it should be as it can infect anyone.

And I also know some trans people who hate gays. The truth is that there are a**holes in every group of people and things can get complicated when groups overlap as when some people identify as both trans and gay and have to put up with hate from both groups. Or think about bi-people who can also be made to feel like outcasts in the queer-community. Yah it sucks that many gay people aren't accepting of trans people but there will always be those who hate us and it just happens that some of them will be gay. On the flip side I have read trans auto-biographies where the MTFs have been openly homophobic and in the film Boys Don't Cry the protagonist makes an offensive comment about 'dykes'.

Britney,

Believe it or not there are ignorant people in every group or non group on earth.

Now

Stupid just can't be fixed.
Ignorance CAN be fixed but only if it isn't willful ignorance.

I suspect the guy you almost got into a brawl with was the latter.

Maybe you should have said "being a a__hole is a choice". You know I never seem to have the best come backs at the time when I need them. Sorry you had your evening out go the way it did.

Gays make up, what?, 7-8% of the population?  Using the most generous numbers for transsexuals it is 1 in 2500, or .04% of the population.  Not many.  Our cause may be just, but the forces simply aren't there.  We need the gay numbers, as clumsy and off-putting as that may be, simply because of the body count.  Remember, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Note, a number of churches are now gay/trans inclusive.  They see us as comparable to gays in the sense of human worth.  Perhaps that is the place to forge lasting friendships and organizations, rather than at some gay bar.  You may find the acceptance level is very much higher.  I have found that bitching and whining about what I don't like never solves the problem.  It is only when I get past it that I start to see solutions.

Responding with yelling doesn't really help anyone...
I would have just rolled my eyes and gone "Yep, it's a choice to be trans JUST like it's a choice to be gay... "

Cindy;
I have gotten great results from bitching and complaining all my life. People do give you what you want if you whine and complain loud enough. They may be angry and only give you what you want begrudgingly but you get it and thats what counts.

I came back from Los Angeles last week where I had attended the Out & Equal Workplace Summit.  I had all the support I could ever have dreamed of for me presenting as female accompanied with appropriate name and pronouns.  Don't let a few gay douchebags get you down.

That said, finally good to have the HRC requiring full health care benefits with no caps for trans-people in their Corporate Equality Index Survey (to take effect 2012).  Before, I had always felt that HRC = GLB - T.  I remain skeptical until I see the results for the 2012 CEI.

Kimberly Reed also was a guest speaker at the conference and stated loudly during her presentation that the letter "T" in LGBT was not to be used as a bargaining chip.  I do think she was heard there.

I joined the G*Y dot com web site.
Was told I wasnt welcome there. Very upset wrote an email to a gay friend about it.
Or... So I thought.
I sent it to over 800 people that didnt know who and what I was. In a panic, I signed off the list and hid.

Calls came in from all over the US, basically saying "hey, you F**edup. But.. Come back."
Really not what I expected.

Gays didnt accept me but the straights did...

Personally, I am not gay and I really dont like being lumped in with them. I am not homophobic, I have friends that are gay, but I am not like them, just as I am not like crossdressers.

I wear the clothes every day, I dont change my personality to suit what I wear.

Quote from: lilacwoman on October 18, 2010, 03:01:18 AM
I agree perfectly though I have been barred from other forums for saying what you say.
I was LGBT rep at work but I gave up after a few meetings because LGBT stuff was nothing to do with TS stuff. 
I did have a couple of stand up arguments with very butch lesbians over what was the more serious: the rape of a TS or the rape of a GG.

Lilacwoman, why would you argue about this?   It is highly offensive to victims of rape to play the 'bigger victim card' and certainly would not gain you any points in the LGBT community.  Very wise decision to stand down from your rep position.

I guess we all have different experiences.

Personally I have never found any members of the LGB communities that have been less than 100% welcoming and supportive to me, although I know by repute and from listening to some of you on here talking that some do exist, just as they do in the cis community. (I never really met any of them either!) I have a great many very dear friends from all of these communities.

Funnily enough the only groups I personally have ever taken serious abuse from are the intersex and trans communities to which I supposedly belong, or rather belonged prior to SRS. At various times I have taken stick from some members of both communities for not being "pure" enough in my approach and trying to exist in the no mans land between them.

I think it often boils down to the fact that we fear that which outwardly seems dangerously similar to us, but is actually not at all the same. I think we woory that others may mistake "us" for "them". I know better now of course, but I have to confess to my shame that when I was a lot younger I used to have a terror of being confused for a ->-bleeped-<-. Now days I have no axe to grind with them at all, but 30 years ago when I was "in transit" so to speak I had an almost pathological fear of such people and being in any way associated with them, and it could easily have come over as a lack of sympathy on my part. (something which I am not at all proud of so please don't give me stick for it)

I think your opinion of members of other groups in the spectrum is just the luck of the draw, partly conditioned by who you come across. Apparently I have been pretty fortunate.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on October 18, 2010, 09:22:53 AM
Gays make up, what?, 7-8% of the population? Using the most generous numbers for transsexuals it is 1 in 2500, or .04% of the population.  Not many.  Our cause may be just, but the forces simply aren't there.  We need the gay numbers, as clumsy and off-putting as that may be, simply because of the body count.  Remember, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Note, a number of churches are now gay/trans inclusive.  They see us as comparable to gays in the sense of human worth.  Perhaps that is the place to forge lasting friendships and organizations, rather than at some gay bar.  You may find the acceptance level is very much higher.  I have found that bitching and whining about what I don't like never solves the problem.  It is only when I get past it that I start to see solutions.

The "most generous numbers" are far higher than that by an order of magnitude. See: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html

While I agree we should be in solidarity with gay people (whether we are gay or not), it's not for tactical reasons. We should support all oppressed groups because, simply, they are oppressed. We should support them for the same reason they should support us, obnoxious behavior of certain members notwithstanding.

---

To the O.P., and those who share her sentiments:

Some people try to show how "normal" they are by bashing other groups. That's immature, and they should know better. But responding in kind is just as bad.

Also, I'm really sick of all the gay-bashing on this site.

Alyssa M, Not to belabor the point, but from the wikepedia a more current reference from the same source you quote, "Olyslager and Conway presented a paper[33]  at the WPATH 20th International Symposium (2007) arguing that the data from their own and other studies actually imply much higher prevalence, with minimum lower bounds of 1:4,500 male-to-female transsexuals and 1:8,000 female-to-male transsexuals for a number of countries worldwide. They suggest the prevalence might be as high as 1:500 births overal "
They only seem confident of the minimum lower bounds.  EVEN if it were 1 in 500, it still wouldn't be an order of magnitude. But that's not my point.  We just aren't that large a group, we have this enormous religous headwind to overcome, and we fight amongst ourselves who is "deserving" of protections.  I have been getting a bit upset over the trash talk about cds, and/or ->-bleeped-<-s in a number of threads. 
Cynthialee, I whine too, but do you really think it solves any problem other than some immediate need?  Getting paid off to shut up and go away isn't a strategy for anything more aspirational than to get taken out to an upscale restaurant or for flowers.  My wife says that I may not sound or walk right, but boy, do I have the "bitch" part down.  Reminder, that doesn't work on a group of gay guys, most will tell you that's one thing they really dislike about women.

Quote from: rejennyrated on October 18, 2010, 06:03:28 PM
Personally I have never found any members of the LGB communities that have been less than 100% welcoming and supportive to me, although I know by repute and from listening to some of you on here talking that some do exist

I've also never really had more than a few issues within the gay community and the ones I did have were due to a person being a jerk in general, nothing to do with them being glb. When I was a teen the trans group in my community wouldn't allow me in until I was 18 and my gay youth group allowed me in with open arms and helped me. They did not understand really but they wanted to learn. There are a few gay nightclubs withing my city that acknowledge and hold transgender day of remembrance events to raise money and awareness. The guy you talked to obviously was a jerk but maybe he did not have knowledge of transgender people so he was saying what he thought was true? I get people all the time who don't understand asking why I can't just wear "normal" clothes and be "normal". Hopefully this doesn't happen to you again and I'm sorry you had to go through that  

I also recall that he could not understand why I would want to go all the way to SRS. This was clearly a case of willful ignorance. It really makes me angry when someone asks me questions when they have no intention of learning anything. What made me more mad than anything was this guy was wasting my time. This is the age of the internet and if someone truly wants to learn about something they can go online and research it themselves. They will find different views, different information, etc. on a subject and can make up their own mind what is correct or not. It is not my job to be a professor for people who are too lazy to learn anything. I wish I did have better comebacks at the time but I didn't. I could have called him a bunch of racial slurs and see how he felt. Obviously I'd be sinking to his level though and that probably wouldn't have been wise. I could have said his ethnicity was a choice. In any case he did get the message that he ticked me off because I don't think it was a coincidence that he suddenly left the bar. I honestly think he thought I was going to beat him up. Obviously that wouldn't have been wise either but maybe he'll be a bit smarter next time he goes to a bar about what he says to people.

The good news is I have gotten much better over the years of being more selective with people. I'm sure I come across by many as a real b*tch but that is not always a bad thing. I simply don't have the time to socialize with and listen to everyone. People who are nice to me will get my attention and people who aren't will be ignored. Incredibly annoying and stupid people will be publically rebuked as I did in the bar. People take way too much for granted these days. They think they have an automatic right to interrupt your conversations and insert their ignorance which they think is their wisdom and then not have to be called on it. A couple of months ago some other TS woman had asked me for a car ride leaving that same bar. When I politely said "No" she went off on me telling me I was ugly, etc. I knew a few things about her so that time my comebacks were so loud, true, and devastating that she has never bothered me since. I hate to be this way with some people but too many people don't learn. If a person is at least half-way smart and willing to accept they are wrong or agree to disagree, I'm going to do my best to be nice. Too many people though will not take the hint. They say stupid things and your own politeness and tolerance has no effect. When they won't stop bothering you the only way to get it to stop is to make a scene. This guy that I discussed in the OP had interrupted a current conversation I had. I didn't do it this time but a lot of times I will just outright cut the person off and say "Excuse me, I'm having a conversation with my friend and don't want to be interrupted." If I don't shut these people down quickly it will get out of hand.

In extreme cases violence becomes the answer. My dad had an incident where he was already late for work and a homeless person would not leave him alone. He kept repeatedly telling the person he could not help him, to please go away, etc. When the person continued after the fourth or fifth time even blocking his path from where he was trying to go, my dad lost his temper, grabbed the man, and slammed him hard on the ground. I guess I'm getting off track but we can all see there is no end to stupid, obnoxious, ignoramouses from every direction. Just because I'm within a certain distance of another human does not mean I'm required to listen to them or have anything to do with them. Period.

Last but not least, the GLBT community. There is a serious flaw with the acronym itself: G is for gay, L is for lesbian, and B is for bisexual whereas T is for transgender. Which one does not fit? You guessed it: the T. GLB all refer to sexual orientations whereas T refers to gender identity and expression. That is the problem right there. It would be like having an acronym of CMJB standing for Christians, Muslims, Jews, and blacks. That is why GLBT surveys don't work for trans people either. A trans person may be GLB or straight. That is why I do think there should be a parting of the ways. If you are a transman who happens to be bi or likes guys then fight for your two causes: trans rights and gay rights as separate issues (because they are separate). Same with transwomen. If you are a lesbian then fight for lesbian rights as a lesbian and fight for your trans rights as well. If you are straight then you are clearly not GLB so you will only support those issues as a GLB ally.

Then you have the entire T umbrella. You have the transsexuals including non-ops and those who are pre or post op, you have crossdressers, drag queen performers, and androgynes. All of these individuals have separate needs. When it comes to giving and receiving support it is certainly my opinion that we should come together because you are stronger united than divided. However, each issue has to be focused on separately and individually. A CDer who wants to be able to wear a dress in public is not the same as a TS who wants to be able to get her gender marker changed nor are these issues the same as a gay man who wants to get married or a bisexual woman who wants to join the military openly. So we need to stand united in terms of support but at the same time stop lumping all these issues together as if they are same thing. They are not.