It definitely isn't a pleasant thing to have happen. I know I have to at least appear androgynous, but otherwise I look male. I've been getting she and her from guests where I work, despite my name tag and appearance. I guess it's just what people first assume of you. I'm personally guessing it might be my voice, some days it is just a little higher than is male approriate. Fortunately not feminine though.

Quote from: Wolf Man on October 24, 2010, 05:19:35 PM
It definitely isn't a pleasant thing to have happen. I know I have to at least appear androgynous, but otherwise I look male. I've been getting she and her from guests where I work, despite my name tag and appearance. I guess it's just what people first assume of you. I'm personally guessing it might be my voice, some days it is just a little higher than is male approriate. Fortunately not feminine though.

Now that is even odder - if you have a name tag on with an obviously male name, male clothes on, etc. And you don't look female at all either.

I guess it's all very individualized, personal interpretations. Maybe the person saw a female once that kinda looked similar or had similar features ... So hard to pin down why people make the assumptions they do.

This requires further study I'm convinced ...

I have asked people on occasion why they thought I was female.  They never have a good reason.  Most just say that I have feminine features if they say anything besides I don't know.  Which I don't really think my features are all that feminine.

So just like you I though this needed further study.   One of the things I noticed is that when I'm feeling bad or grumpy I don't pass as well.  Which of course does nothing to improve my mood and it's all a vicious cycle.  So I came to the conclusion that it has to do with my posture and how I present myself.  I think I might be slumping a bit when I'm sad.  I don't know why that makes me seem more feminine?  Guys slump too though.  They might even slump more than the ladies?  So that's not it.

I think what is has to do with my confidence level.  When I feel ready to take on the world and I stomp into a store with a spring in my step I always pass as male.  That's when I look people in the eye and while still being friendly silently demand respect because I know I deserve it. 

I can't say why that works so well for me really.  Perhaps it is because that is when I help people really look at me instead of just through me.  When people see me they see me for who I am.  However when I'm feeling down I want to be invisible so they only see a shadow.               

Quote from: Squirrel698 on October 24, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
I think what is has to do with my confidence level.  When I feel ready to take on the world and I stomp into a store with a spring in my step I always pass as male.  That's when I look people in the eye and while still being friendly silently demand respect because I know I deserve it. 

I can't say why that works so well for me really.  Perhaps it is because that is when I help people really look at me instead of just through me.  When people see me they see me for who I am.  However when I'm feeling down I want to be invisible so they only see a shadow.               

Yeah the confidence factor is pretty big. I don't usually have any issues with that. At the home store I was lugging around 30 pound boxes of tile and stuff. I was like in full on guy-doing-home-improvement mode just minding my own business and the older employee guy said that. I was like, whaa?

I guess one could argue it's because I'm not a large dude. But there are plenty of guys in the lower 5 foot range, it's not like it's some super rare thing. I don't have a girly figure either.

That really sucks, man. I'm sorry. I just got a haircut the other day and couldn't exactly explain what I wanted my hair to look like because my mother was standing right there and now my hair looks incredibly girly.

I had this happen today. I haven't been called ma'am in awhile unless someone had my full (old) name in their records. I was sitting down at a table reading a paper. You couldn't see much of my body so I don't know what his clue was. I did happen to notice the waiter was undeniably gay. Do gay men actually clock us more than others? Now I'm curious.

Well, it was Home Depot.  Most jobs in places like that pay minimum wage or just slightly higher.  Those jobs are often pretty unpleasant too - you're treated like dirt, and the work is really boring and repetitive, and your superiors make a big deal over things like, "Did you smile at EVERY customer?  Did you approach EVERY customer and ask if they needed help?"  If you go out of your way to do a good job, no one notices.  I think a lot of people in jobs like that end up walking around like zombies and just doing what's basically expected without putting much thought or effort into it.  You probably got called "ma'am" because the person wasn't paying much attention.

You definitely look like a dude in those photos.

gay men clock every male especially any that looks younger - and generally slimmer - but being fat and hairy and covered in tattoos will still make them look.

Quote from: Alexmakenoise on October 24, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
Well, it was Home Depot.  Most jobs in places like that pay minimum wage or just slightly higher.  Those jobs are often pretty unpleasant too - you're treated like dirt, and the work is really boring and repetitive, and your superiors make a big deal over things like, "Did you smile at EVERY customer?  Did you approach EVERY customer and ask if they needed help?"  If you go out of your way to do a good job, no one notices.  I think a lot of people in jobs like that end up walking around like zombies and just doing what's basically expected without putting much thought or effort into it.  You probably got called "ma'am" because the person wasn't paying much attention.

You definitely look like a dude in those photos.

Actually that is a good theory - the mindless-worker-drone theory.

Well, in your first photo all I saw was a woman, an androgynous one but a woman nonetheless. I don't know why.
Maybe it's because you remind me of this singer, Gianna Nannini:

Quote from: Bluetraveler on October 25, 2010, 11:55:43 AM
Well, in your first photo all I saw was a woman, an androgynous one but a woman nonetheless. I don't know why.
Maybe it's because you remind me of this singer, Gianna Nannini

I think this is another piece to the puzzle of why people make determinations - they base it on someone else they've seen.

So far we've got:

1. General appearance (if someone sees something that is typically female - like boobs or hips or long hair)
2. Mindless automation (the worker bee who's not paying attention)
3. Recognition from another source through personal experience - ex: they saw someone else who was either male or female and because you have similarities to that person they determined you were the sex of the previous person.

Gay men and to a certain degree Butch Lesbians totally clock us more and are more likely to figure us out. They are typically the only group I have trouble passing with. They see through everything.. its like they have a vagina sensor.

Also take into account some people have just better sensitivities for those things...I did identify as FtM for years and know all "passing tips", and to say I LIKE studying faces to draw would be an understatement (I wanted to be an animator or illustrator). So I guess I just have a very fine radar.

Sez people who study such things there are somewhere around 18 visual clues that humans instinctively and immediately use to assess and assign gender.  These determinations are constantly being made of everyone you see whether you're aware of it or not (which is what makes them instinctive).  These clues exist in 3 dimensional space in real time and cover far more than the face (the face is one of the lesser ones in fact, which is how you can gender persons walking away from you half a block away).  They include things like carriage, gait, the totality of how you take up space, your expressiveness and how you use space to accent those messages.  On a closer level minor deals, like how you pick up a beer.  And its not just how you speak - the vocals themselves - but the language, vocabulary, and syntax also give away a ton of information that we are processing without even being aware of it.  (That's how some thingies on the web can claim to ascertain the gender of a writer just by analyzing writing sample work.)

You're not thinking about it because most things fall into the norm, it's what's expected and normal and no flags go up.  That is until something does not fit, humans notice very small changes rather quickly sometimes.  How your face looks in a picture is one thing, but most people are operating on a more subtle and automatic level most of the time, even, especially, when they are tired or bored.

i actually found out that i get all the clues i need from the face usually in real life, and only if the face leaves me clueless and i happen to care, i will look further. this is why you can pack a big stick and walk like a cowboy but won't be read as a guy if your face says differently.

Yeah, I understand your frustration mate.  I will be serving customers in work and get "cheers mate" from one customer, followed by "pay the nice lady" from the next! I really don't get it: I even have thick dark stubble up the side of my face! It seems to be the case that I pass well with other men, whereas mums with small children often read me as female.  I think sometimes I don't pass because I look about 14 or 15, and maybe people's subconscious thought processes run like this:
"Hmm, I'm not sure if that's a boy or a girl.  They have short hair like a boy, but they don't have any beard hair and their voice is quite high.  So if they are a boy, they must be about 14  - but surely a boy that age would be in school, not in a job? Sooo, they're a girl.  Hello, love...."

But I know a few bio guys who suffer the same problem - my mate has a proper full on beard, and just because he has quite wide hips for a guy and wears flowing, elegant clothes, people think he's a girl! Poor guy!

Quote from: tekla on October 25, 2010, 03:12:04 PM
Sez people who study such things there are somewhere around 18 visual clues that humans instinctively and immediately use to assess and assign gender.  These determinations are constantly being made of everyone you see whether you're aware of it or not (which is what makes them instinctive).  These clues exist in 3 dimensional space in real time and cover far more than the face (the face is one of the lesser ones in fact, which is how you can gender persons walking away from you half a block away).  They include things like carriage, gait, the totality of how you take up space, your expressiveness and how you use space to accent those messages.  On a closer level minor deals, like how you pick up a beer.  And its not just how you speak - the vocals themselves - but the language, vocabulary, and syntax also give away a ton of information that we are processing without even being aware of it.  (That's how some thingies on the web can claim to ascertain the gender of a writer just by analyzing writing sample work.)

You're not thinking about it because most things fall into the norm, it's what's expected and normal and no flags go up.  That is until something does not fit, humans notice very small changes rather quickly sometimes.  How your face looks in a picture is one thing, but most people are operating on a more subtle and automatic level most of the time, even, especially, when they are tired or bored.

I've seen these types of studies/info out there. The thing that throws it off though is just the simple variety of humans. Yes, there are some standardized things, but (and I think this was covered in another thread somewhere) early socialization often plays a large part in mannerisms, etc as well. People's first exposure to gender anything is through their own family, then through limited social exposure, school, larger social exposure, etc. For me personally my parents knew I was "different" and allowed me to develop socially, etc. in a natural manner and didn't force me one way or the other (save for the occasional dress my mother wanted to put me in when I was very small). I also had no siblings. Consequently, when I went out into the world I was read as male as a child 100% of the time. I was treated a certain way because of this and I'm sure developed certain mannerisms, attitude, body language, expressions, etc. because of this. However, as time went on and people tried to put me in the female box things became awkward, just for the simple fact I did not "fit" with how the females acted. This actually made things a lot worse for me because then everyone just thought I was odd or they thought something was odd about the way I acted.

So people's personal experiences early in life make a great impact on social development, etc. Maybe a bio guy who was raised by only a single mom and has two sisters might have developed "effeminate" mannerisms and is able to easily have exchanges with females on their "level" simply because of his experience. By the same token maybe the typical "tomboy" ends up with more male mannerisms. Personally I tend to not put too much faith into those types of studies because there are too many variations. Just my opinion though.

This is the kind of thing that might not ever have a completely logical answer. I might have stopped the guy who ma'am'd me and point blank asked him why he thought I was female and he might have simple said, "I don't know" or "You have long hair". Who knows.

ETA this also brought up an interesting point in my head - video taping. That could be interesting if people posted videos of themselves just walking, talking, interacting. I think we'd see a lot of variation.

I hate that feeling. I was out with my gf, and her friend (who I'm not out to), and I was no where near feminine looking, I was called James the whole time, and I don't think my voice is that high to give me away, but the waitress insisted on calling us ladies -_- Then finally my gf's friend gave her a weird look and said "um and gentleman" nodding to me. idk if it was because I was with 2 girls or what, it puzzled me all night

I don't get this "gay men clock us more than the average person". I work with a gay guy who's a friend and he hasn't made any note of anything. I attended Gay Days at Disneyland with the park literally filled with gay men and lesbians. Not once was I acknowledged as a she. I even had a group of gay men gander at me because they found my shirt to be hilarious. I had one ask me something. I got he/him in both situations.

I agree with tekla and with Squirrel. People don't have a reason, but that is caused by what tekla gave info on. It's just the signs that are male and female. Just like children can generally clock someone instantly, that doesn't leave us. It is just sort of numbed if anything.

Yeah, I feel this frustration lately.  I went from passing most of the time in high school, even when wearing makeup and women's clothes, to passing literally 0% of the time in college.  I started dressing more masculinely, which didn't help, and last week I gave myself a MAJOR haircut, because I really did have girl length hair before, it just wasn't an issue before now.  How much has it helped?  None.  I went to a party yesterday, and had to correct people on pronouns three times in the course of an evening, and there were more slippages I didn't correct.  The only people who ever got it right were people who knew me before then.  I am wondering if perhaps, though longer, my haircut before high school was more masculine, although longer; I know the haircut I had before this one was more feminine. I think it's mostly because if I'm taken for male, I'm also taken for being 14 or so, which doesn't work for college, but even considering that it seems ridiculous.  And now I'm stuck with a haircut I hate that will take forever to grow out that didn't help any.