Can I make one more suggestion?

   Try making bread. (not with a machine) When I am nervous or stressed I make bread, lots and lots of bread. I think it is the kneading process that relaxes me most. Then it's the smell that fills the house so wonderfully.

   The children an Mrs Erocse love it when I am stressed. 

   Hugs, Erocse

I will have to give that a try. I've never made bread from scratch before.   

Typically I bake and clean when I am stressed. By the time he gets home tonight there will be some sort of dessert waiting for him, dinner, and the house will be spotless.

Thanks Erosce!

 You sound like a very nice person. I hope that if it doesn't work out between you and Dan. That you find the right  person who loves you. 

   You know all your posts and responses are very similar to how my wife responded to me when I came out to her. It is still difficult for us, from time to time I will not say it is not. But we happier then we ever have been.

  Much love an good luck, Erocse

Thank you Erocse! You seem to be an amazingly kind and wonderful person!

He just called me, he should be home in an hour or so. My stomach is doing flips! I am excited to talk to him about how the session went.

Wish me luck!

Yes I certainly do, wish you lots of luck. And I will be thinking of you two tonight when I am nodding off to sleep, next to Mrs Erocse and hoping you two are holding each other tight throughout the night.

   Goodnight,   Your friend, Erocse

This is a complex issue I would myself have trouble with, but I'll still try to help.

Be true to yourself. If it helps you, you may want to take a weekend alone to reflect upon the situation. Forget about the whole transition. Imagine Dan wakes up as a fully transformed woman tomorrow. Think about the situation and your relation with him (or her, whichever is preferred).

I do not think you have been betrayed or lied to. TG issues are something very hard to deal with with family and friends. I've never had a relationship and can only imagine how hard it must be to expect your partner not to be able to be with you if you tell them. It is hard and I admire his courage for telling you.

Past that, keep in mind that Dan will stay Dan even after transition. Even if the body changes, the inside remains the same, with the only difference that he will be much more happy and prone to make you happy when he is finally fully himself.

The only question you really need to ask yourself is : Can I overcome my lover's body ?

If you find out that you can't, don't feel too guilty. Staying with Dan while not being honest with yourself is the same as him lying to you when he says he doesn't want to transition.

Keep in mind that love problems and trans-related problems never have a perfect solution, let alone a problem that combines the two.

I'll repeat the only real advice I can truly give you : being honest with yourself is probably the best way to clarify your feelings.

Well. Dan had his first therapy appointment last evening. It went well according to him, and I am glad. The therapist he is seeing is TG. He said that he is comfortable with her, and scheduled a second appointment.

He didn't have a ton to say about the session, just that it was mostly introductory, and they only really discussed the things he and I have already talked about. However, the one thing that he did tell me that I did get upset over even though I tried very hard not to was that the therapist suggested HRT for 5 months or so. This freaked me out. I wasn't expecting him to come back from session number one with that response. I've read that HRT after a period of 5-8 months can cause reduced sperm count and/or infertility. Dan said his therapist, who is actually a licensed social worker, claims that HRT can be a good tool for diagnosis. Is that true?


My biggest concern is that he still claims he isn't sure what he wants. He doesn't know how HRT would make him feel, and I don't know if he has weighed the risks. We can't afford to go to a sperm bank. I do want to have children eventually, and more than anything, I would love to be with Dan and to have his children. This is very difficult for me because 1) If we do stay together through HRT and transitioning, I would still like to have our children, 2) If he takes the HRT for the alloted time period and it doesn't feel right to him there is a very good chance that we will not be able to conceive children of our own.


I feel terrible because he is so confused... My head is pounding and my heart just aches. He is sleeping beside me now, and it hurts to think of him not being there, or of anyone else but him in that place. We discussed living arrangements if he were to start HRT, our lease is up in a little more than a month and a half. We were planning on moving in with my friends who just bought a sizeable house. With him in school I am often alone, and we could save some money while helping out my friends. However, I'm not sure if we should stay living the way we are. We discussed him staying in the second bedroom that would be ours and/or him renting a room somewhere else for the time being.

The entire time we were both in tears because neither of us wants to see the other one hurting. I told him very calmly that if we let go now I will be there as his friend and confidant, but I don't know if I can promise more. I told him I feel like I know what he wants, to transition. He is scared, and he doesn't want to lose me, but he knows I want children and a family. He admitted he does have some inclination towards that, but he also is able to see himself as a man, as my husband, and happy. I don't know what to do. 

Even though it's a difficult situation, I must say this whole story is very cute and touching.

As for HRT, usually, I think therapists will prescribe it when the patient is sure they want to transition. I can't say anything very precise about it, but I remember Andrea James' site, tsroadmap.com, recommends against expecting to use HRT for testing ourselves. But if the therapist herself is okay with it, I suppose it's okay.

You say Dan is not sure about what he wants... I think you should recommend he comes here at Susans.org and seek answers to his questions himself, if he feels like it.

Thanks, A. He is using a different site, I am not sure which. I do keep him updated on some of the things that people reply, because much of the feedback I get, or the things that others post throughout are extremely helpful. However, it is nice to have a place that is separate right now... Does that make sense?

I just feel as though there are certain questions I need to ask here privately. That way he can't be smug over what the responses are.

Of course I understand !

HaS:

That first therapy session is always such a buildup and then kind of a let down.  It is so anticipated, though much of it is about background not directly dealing with the specific issues.  The later sessions will really get into the meat of it.

There is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that HRT can be an indicator of transsexuality.  In many cases it can bring a comfort and relief from depression for those who are seeking to transition.  I was aware of it myself when I first started.  Check out some of my early blog entries for my experience.  It stopped my clinical depression.

The opposite example primarily comes from those men who are given anti-androgens and estrodial in the cases of prostate cancer.  Most men in those cases experience a higher anxiety level because of the loss of masculinity.  The loss of libido and erection was very distressing.

This has had no real scientific testing because for the most part there are so few transsexuals to sample from.  But it has been documented a number of times.

Cross hormone therapy usually consist of an anti-androgen like spironolactone and estrodial.  Also a complete blood workup and liver functionality testing is usually required prior to prescribing HRT.

Use of anti-androgens for longer than about 8 months result in permanent chemical castration and other non reversible changes like gynocomastia.  Prior to that, if it is stopped then most of the changes can be reversed. 

One of the things that drive us to such extreme measures is the relentless bleak depression that often times accompany this.  We do not do this for any gratification or titillation.  We face rejection, abuse, and discrimination, yet we truly have no choice.

This is a terrifying time.  We feel lost and alone and many times perverted and unclean.  That you have shown him the support that you have is helpful more than you will ever know.  That he trusted you with this most precious secret was probably one of the hardest things he had to do.

Conflicted, sure!  He is facing loss of everything he holds dear for a promise of no clear tomorrow.

Of course he would be welcome here to discuss his fears as well.  Many of us find so much support, just in knowing that we are not alone.  But that would be his call to make.

Your fears too, HaS, are equally valid.  You never dreamed that your life would be like this.  You have such wonderful hopes and dreams.  I truly hope that they can come true for you.

But if I could give you something to think about.  Are you in love with Dan, or Dan the man?  Meaning do you love him or his gender?  Are you in love with his spirit?  If so, does the window dressing mean that very much?  And were he to transition, you two could still be parents.  Would a child of yours be any less yours if they did not have your DNA?  These are questions that you must answer for yourself.

He may be a bit like I was.  I never really knew what my ultimate goal was, but I knew what next steps I had to take.  He may not be willing to make a commitment to transition, but he knows that he needs to take hormones.  From there he will be better able to evaluate he next step.

Please be well, HaS, know that we care for you.  And just for curiosity's sake, do you have a real first name we might use?   Heartsick and Sleepless seems so impersonal.

-Sandy

Thank you Sandy-

That is a bit to think about, and actually is very similar to the things that have been bopping around in my mind. I just don't know what to make of a lot of the feelings I am having right now. Because Dan is conflicted I can't rest easy. His well being means the world to me, and thus I'm finding it most difficult to sort through my feelings because I am also so committed to his. I feel like at some points they seem to overlap, thus I'm not sure if I am benefitting him or myself with my choices, or neither. Ultimately he has to decide where he wants to go with all of this. It's not my choice to make, and I will stand by him as long as I feel neither of us is being hurt.

Adoption is something we had talked about before, only because his parents were married for 10 years, told they were not capable of conceiving, and began the adoption process. Next thing they know his first brother was born, and 11 months later the middle brother came along. Dan was 7 years later than the first two. That said, I do not believe we would love a child any less were it not our own flesh and blood, but the idea of making a child with the person that I love is something that I find to be a beautiful concept.

Funny thing is, Dan and I were discussing the idea of sexuality the other night. While currently we are committed to a heterosexual relationship, were he to transition what would that make us? I have heard the term 'situational lesbians' used by some of the other SO's on susans, and I brought that up to him. I am young, and while I do love Dan for more than his physical presence, the idea of giving up the physical relationship we have now saddens us both. While Dan is strictly attracted to women, whose to say HRT won't influence his sexuality? He knows he can't promise me it won't have some effects, however small. He also knows that I am only attracted to men. Yes, I can appreciate the beauty of the female form, but sexually it does nothing for me. He and I discussed this for a while, and he told me he couldn't be upset with me for that because if roles were reversed he would feel the same way. If he were to transition, he would be a woman. He wouldn't be a man pretending to be a woman, he wouldn't be a man. It's just something that neither of us is entirely sure of right now. Thus adding to the confusion. 

Oh, BTW, my name is Jacquelyn, Jackie works too.

Jackie:

There are so many issues involved, that they seem insurmountable.  Much of it though is just taking it one step at a time.  "How do you eat an elephant?  One bite at a time."

Changing gender is the most difficult thing that a modern human being can do in society.  There is literally no element of your existence that isn't touched by gender.  There is no part of social interaction that isn't based on gender.  We are segregated and identified by gender at the instant of our birth before literally nothing else is known.  There is much to discuss, but really there is very little that can or needs to be done while Dan is conflicted.  For him to go into therapy and perhaps start HRT is about all that needs to be done right now.  This is a a long path, but one that only can be traveled one step at a time.

If you have done some reading here and in other places you'll know that gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate issues.  That is one of the things that confused me for so many decades.  I thought to myself that I couldn't be a woman because I liked women.  And in the era that I went through in the 70's, that was one of the criteria of definition.  If you were not attracted to the same gender, then, by definition you could not be cross gender.  I am such an old bat...

Anyway, sexual orientation becomes moot issue as a result of transition.  It seems to become more fluid for the likes of us.  From certain points of view the transitioner is simultaneously straight and gay.  No wonder it is confusing.  I consider myself a card carrying lesbian because I am still very attracted to women, but I can now see the beauty and sexual attraction in the male form.  I've long since given up trying to figure out where I fit on the gay/straight spectrum and just learned to let it be.

I'm the wife of a wonderful partner who has known me for many years.  And the only woman to "know" me on both sides of the fence, so to speak.  And she and I consider ourselves lesbian with each other, but she really still likes guys, that is probably the situational lesbianism you were mentioning.  Anyway that is probably getting to be TMI.

It may be a good thing that you and he are on different sites.  Sometimes internal disagreements can boil over into a forum and the party's demand that the group take sides or go into great detail about the elements of each others character.  Not a pretty site and were it to go that far here would be a violation of the TOS.  We really try to play nice here and we have very strict playground rules which for the most part has worked out quite well.  Also remember that everything that is said both here and everywhere else on the 'net is mostly just navel ruminations and worth what you paid for it.  It's great for getting support and for bouncing ideas off, but the best place to work through issues may be with a therapist.  I usually take the consensus of opinions overall on a particular subject rather than focus in on one particular post. 

Also, Jackie, if I may, I wish to compliment you on your writing eloquence.  You words are very well selected and your posts are all very well thought out.  Your structure is very good.  In a very few number of posts you have very effectively described the problems that you have been experiencing and the situation between you and Dan and even Dan is well described.  So often it is hard to decipher what a poster is trying to get at and what question, if any, they are asking.  Thank you for that.

Also, from your newly posted avatar, I see that you have a wonderful smile and a beautiful face.  You are very pretty!

-Sandy

Sandy-

First, thank you for your kind words, it means a lot to me. I am a terror about my writing. It is somewhat difficult for me to write about these topics in the first place because I do not want to offend anyone, but also because I overanalyze everything I write to begin with.

Second, in terms of sexuality and gender, I understand the difference between them, I am just not entirely certain that my sexual preference is quite so fluid. I think that some TG people whose sexual preference changes as they transition are just finally becoming comfortable with accepting themselves in their entirety. While some may remain steadfast in their sexual preference society does dictate quite a bit of what is deemed sexually appropriate, attractive, etc. and just because someone is TG doesn't make them immune to that. While I am sure transitioning can effect Dan's sexuality, or even solidify what he feels now, I fear that my sexuality isn't as fluid.

I will be 21 in January, and at the risk of sounding selfish, giving up a physical relationship isn't something that I want to do. Besides that, having a subpar or bad sexual relationship also has the ability to ruin relationships. One of my good friends is a sex therapist, and I plan on speaking with her once we are a little more sure as to where 'we' are headed (that and she is due to give birth this week so I don't want to show up on her doorstep with a card and a box of unresolved issues ).

I feel as though that is an issue that is far enough away in the future that I don't have the means to deal with it now, but because I know I will eventually I am going to continue to fear and dwell on it. If I haven't mentioned it before, I am notorious for my worrysome habits. Dan and my sisters tend to make fun of me for it all of the time.  I recognize the humor in it, I just haven't found the off switch for it.

Jackie:

That is one of the most difficult things about this.  Not only is it a transition for the person transitioning, it is also a transition for everyone around them as well.  It is not easy for any involved.

Also, I do not think you selfish at all for recognizing your needs as a woman and a human being.  You are right in your belief that you should have a fulfilling relationship.  And to be frank, if Dan decides to start HRT, probably his loss of libido and physical response will drop dramatically very soon after starting.

And your gender preference does not need to be fluid.  No one is asking you to join the lesbians (though you get a quite nice toaster oven as a signing bonus if you do  ).  This can be frustrating to be sure.

Seeking out the advice of your friend would be very helpful indeed.  Though, postpartum of course, and bring a nice gift for her child and our congratulations as well!

And one other thing I would mention.  Both you and Dan are so very young.  You literally have your whole lives to look forward to.  And no matter how you and he end up, either as lovers or sisters/best friends, you have time to make it work out.

Also if you find that switch to turn off the over analysis let me know.  I'd like to turn it off sometimes as well! 

-Sandy

Thanks Sandy, and I will let you know if I find the switch. I could use a new toaster oven. 

I read through the most recent posts with him. We're working on figuring it out. We do have a couples therapy appointment with a psychiatrist who specializes in GLBT issues for couples on the 9th of November. She seems very friendly and I hope she will be compatible for us.

Thanks again!

Quote from: Heartsick and Sleepless on October 31, 2010, 11:51:42 AM
Thanks Sandy, and I will let you know if I find the switch. I could use a new toaster oven. 

I read through the most recent posts with him. We're working on figuring it out. We do have a couples therapy appointment with a psychiatrist who specializes in GLBT issues for couples on the 9th of November. She seems very friendly and I hope she will be compatible for us.

Thanks again!

YES!
This is probably the best move you can make if you wish to maintain a relationship through transition.

I am of the opinion that my relationship is strong and loving as it ever was because we go to my therapist as a couple. (also I got the added benifit of Sevan comeing out of the closet.)
I hope you guys have as much fun and make as much progress  in therapy with whatever unique form of bagage you have, as we have.

Thank you Cythialee, I hope that things are going well for you and Sevan. 

Quote from: Heartsick and Sleepless on October 31, 2010, 01:43:59 PM
Thank you Cythialee, I hope that things are going well for you and Sevan. 

YEP
We are spending the weekend in Seattle with friends. Couldn't be better.
But thats nether here nor there. The main concern here is to help you.

So how are you and your mate going to maintain and keep your heads clear until your apointment with the shrink?

We have been talking nonstop since he got home from work yesterday afternoon. It's wonderful, because communication is the key to any relationship. That said, he is being more open about the things that he wants out of the relationship, and what he wants for himself. It is nice to hear the truth, finally, but at the same time, not everything that I want to hear. I understand that in a relationship that both people must compromise, and be attentive to each others wants and needs, but it still hurts to hear some of the things that he has been feeling.

I want him to continue to go to therapy, I think that he needs to spend more time thinking over where he wants to go in his life. And I have been very open with him about that. Dan is definitely interested in the idea of instant gratification, but I don't think that in seeking to understand who he is, and what he needs to be happy that he should make snap judgments without considering consequences. I am not trying to prevent him from starting HRT, but I know that financially we are pretty strapped. I am paying off student loan debt and credit card debt, Dan is currently a full-time night student, and we have the everyday finances that we are struggling to make. Between rent, our animals, gas, and food, just paying the necessities aren't always easy.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't want to see him start and hit a wall financially. When it comes to money, as I said before, he really struggles. To be 100% honest that is the thing that drives me absolutely batty. Dan doesn't always learn from his consequences. I swear he could touch a hot stove, burn his hand, and touch it again the next day to see if it still burns.

Overall, I have tried to explain to him that he is on the right path, he is taking the steps he needs to, but it doesn't all need to be done  by next week. The best part of all of this is that I am typically the impatient one. 

I guess what I am trying to say through all of this rambling Cythialee is that we are going to continue to communicate. I think that I am going to have him make a list with me of things he can not live with out, things he desires, and things he wants to work on with our relationship and with his TG thoughts.