Very interesting story.

http://www.outsports.com/os/index.php/component/content/article/24-people/338-transgender-man-to-play-for-womens-basketball-team

It's not as bad as you might think he's not taking T therefore dosen't have an unfair advantage over other females as he mentioned himself in the story if he did he'd have to play on the guys team.

I'm actually happy about this.Cases like this will make us more known to NCAA and force them to change some of their rules.Here is another link.The comments are great.

http://jezebel.com/5679505/the-ncaas-first-openly-trans-basketball-player

I am so going to this event! 

What's the difference?  If he is identifying as a man, then why should he be allowed to play on the women's team?  If I identify as a woman, even though I used to be a man, are you saying that I have to play on the men's team because a woman, who is now a man, is playing on the women's team?  What does hormones have anything to do with it?  His identity is MALE.  Allowing this negates any work for transwomen to be accepted onto women's teams/sports.  Allowing this only reinforces their notion that you must play on the team/sport for your birth gender despite whatever gender you now identify as.

If you support him playing on the women's team because of no apparent "unfair advantage", then you also support discrimination against transwomen for the same reason.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 02:50:07 PM
What's the difference?  If he is identifying as a man, then why should he play on the men's team?  If I identify as a woman, even though I used to be a man, are you saying that I have to play on the men's team because a woman, who is now a man, is playing on the women's team?  What does hormones have anything to do with it?  His identity is MALE.  Allowing this negates any work for teanswomen to be accepted onto women's teams/sports.  Allowing this only reinforces their notion that you must play on the team/sport for your birth gender despite whatever gender you now identify as.

The prevailing notion in sports is it's not birth gender, but biological alignment which dictates which gendered league an athlete plays in.  The concept is that of a leveled playing field -- if a transwoman is not undergoing HRT she would have a distinct advantage in a female league due to her testosterone.  Similarly, this transman , without the benefit of "T" is competing against athletes with the same capability.  In most cases, a transsexual on HRT, competes in leagues of their target gender.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 02:50:07 PM
What's the difference?  If he is identifying as a man, then why should he be allowed to play on the women's team?  If I identify as a woman, even though I used to be a man, are you saying that I have to play on the men's team because a woman, who is now a man, is playing on the women's team?  What does hormones have anything to do with it?  His identity is MALE.  Allowing this negates any work for transwomen to be accepted onto women's teams/sports.  Allowing this only reinforces their notion that you must play on the team/sport for your birth gender despite whatever gender you now identify as.

If you support him playing on the women's team because of no apparent "unfair advantage", then you also support discrimination against transwomen for the same reason.

He identify as a man, but he hasn't actually physically transition to be one in terms of HRT & documents. T unquestionably provides an advantages which is why the prevailing wisdom is that for FTM, once you go on T you're competing as male; and for MTF, once you go on E and a period of time has passed to allow for effect of T to go away and E to take effect.

So what you are saying is that it's not the chosen gender identity that makes a person eligible for the men's or women's teams, but instead it's their hormones?

So suppose I am a teenage transgirl, who dresses and acts like a female in all aspects of my life, but cannot get access to hormone therapy because I am underage, but have been accepted by all my peers as female.  Then by your logic I must still play on the boy's teams/sports in school because I have not started hormones despite the fact that I am living fulltime as female and therefore completely invalidating my chosen identity?

Quote from: pheonix on November 02, 2010, 02:59:43 PM
The prevailing notion in sports is it's not birth gender, but biological alignment which dictates which gendered league an athlete plays in.  The concept is that of a leveled playing field -- if a transwoman is not undergoing HRT she would have a distinct advantage in a female league due to her testosterone.  Similarly, this transman , without the benefit of "T" is competing against athletes with the same capability.  In most cases, a transsexual on HRT, competes in leagues of their target gender.

Exactly. The division between men's and women's sports leagues is not based on gender or gender identity - it's based on physiological differences between men and women. Hormones actually do affect athletic ability; the average testosterone-fueled body is several standard deviations above the norm for estrogen-fueled bodies in most measures of physical strength, speed, and endurance. Identifying as female (or male) doesn't change this biological reality.

Pre-T trans men can't just go play on men's teams any more than we can go sing in men's choirs. Some of us would rather not play sports or sing if the only way we could do either would be to do them with women - but for others, athletics or music is one of the most important things in their lives. This guy seems to be among the second group.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 03:13:08 PM
So what you are saying is that it's not the chosen gender identity that makes a person eligible for the men's or women's teams, but instead it's their hormones?

So suppose I am a teenage transgirl, who dresses and acts like a female in all aspects of my life, but cannot get access to hormone therapy because I am underage, but have been accepted by all my peers as female.  Then by your logic I must still play on the boy's teams/sports in school because I have not started hormones despite the fact that I am living fulltime as female and therefore completely invalidating my chosen identity?

In my opinion, yes, unless you're on puberty blockers. Trans girls who aren't on puberty blockers have a major unfair physical advantage over other girls, with an effect size similar to what cis girls would get if they were using steroids (which are also banned).

(Because there's no physical advantage in the other direction, trans boys should be able to play on boys' teams...if we can make the team. The harsh physiological reality is that in many cases, we can't.)

Then instead of calling them Mens and Women's teams, we should say Estrogen and Testosterone.

I hear what you are saying and I also understand that most on this thread are trans-male and that you guys are more aware of the "benefits" and "unfair advantage" of testosterone than us transfemales.  But the fact of the matter is that your argument still invalidates my claim and my identity as a trans-female.  It is still discrimination.

There's no perfect answer. But the thing is that women's sports exist for a reason: without sex-segregated sports leagues, almost no women would ever have the opportunity to compete at a high level in almost any sport. Not because of their gender identity or expression, but because of their physical differences. Coed contact sports can even be unsafe for women. So the line is drawn very conservatively in order to maintain a reasonably fair, reasonably safe environment where women can compete.

Is it discrimination? I guess it is. But then, sports teams discriminate based on physical characteristics all the time. People with physical or severe mental disabilities are often denied the opportunity to compete for their schools' teams, and may have to play in specialized leagues. Trans boys are legally allowed to play for boys' teams, but that doesn't mean we can meet the physical standards to do so (and unlike for trans girls, puberty blockers don't fix that problem for us). Intersex people may have to compete in male divisions.

Eligibility rules for sports are messy. But having pubescent trans girls on a girls' team is unfair to all of the girls she plays with or against; it's discriminatory against them, and it undermines the whole point of women's sports. They don't exist because of gender or identity. They exist because of differences in physical sex.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 03:23:38 PM
I hear what you are saying and I also understand that most on this thread are trans-male and that you guys are more aware of the "benefits" and "unfair advantage" of testosterone than us transfemales.  But the fact of the matter is that your argument still nvalidates my claim and my identity as a trans-female.  It is still discrimination.

See, that's not discrimination.  Discrimination would be "you can't play because you are trans."  You aren't denied the ability to be openly trans and compete, you're just denied entry onto the team of your non-hormonal gender.  Case law regarding sports and gender is very well established and is grounded in the physical biological differences of gender.  In these instances separate but equal is allowable.  Even in a trans-friendly jurisdiction, a lawsuit wouldn't succeed on the merits of the case.  Even more so, many sports governing bodies have developed very trans friendly policies which mimic how this transman's case has been handled.   In terms of invalidating identity, his identity has not been compromised -- even within the team, league and article his identity of male is affirmed.

Just to drive home the level of physical difference: The U.S. Women's Olympic hockey team was beaten by high school boys in approx. 2006. Seriously. High school boys, still going through puberty, beat one of the top two women's teams in the world. The physical differences really are that extreme and they do show up that early.

A reasonably athletic trans girl without puberty blockers or hormones would easily outstrip all of her teammates, all of her competitors...in an individual sport like track and field or swimming, she could quite easily sweep medals in every event, even against cis girls who are naturally more athletically talented and training harder. That's simply unfair.

How do you explain then boys joining girls' field hockey?  If your argument that testosterone fueled bodies cannot play in girls' sports, then why are they allowed to play field hockey? 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_boys_play_field_hockey_in_high_school

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10262/1088700-364.stm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/2010-09-23-boys-field-hockey_N.htm

According to your definition, this should be disallowed.

Because there's no boys' field hockey. They can't be excluded from playing a sport based on their gender, so they're allowed to play on the girls' team under the same case law that gave girls the right to play hockey and football on boys' teams. If you read the article, not everybody's exactly happy with the situation.

Quote"They're faster and more powerful, and that definitely gives them a leg up," Dorsch said. "There were girls on the bench who saw very little time on the field. Having such a significant number (five) of boys on the field at one time — boys that are more powerful and have more force behind their actions because of their increased body weight — is not a safe situation for girls that are new to the sport and weigh 50-80 pounds less than them."

And the competitive advantage is recognized and abused:

QuoteElk Lake coach Heidi English started the season with nine boys on her roster, though one moved away. She starts seven boys, and most of them have played since they were freshmen. The team is 2-2 in one of the toughest regions in the state.

"We encouraged boys to join to become competitive," English said. "It's become an issue because we've started to win.

Quote from: kyril on November 02, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
Because there's no boys' field hockey. They can't be excluded from playing a sport based on their gender, so they're allowed to play on the girls' team under the same case law that gave girls the right to play hockey and football on boys' teams. If you read the article, not everybody's exactly happy with the situation.And the competitive advantage is recognized and abused:

Except you fail to realize that the argument here is solely based on testosterone fueled bodies versus non-testosterone.  By your previous arguments, these boys should not be partaking in girl's field hockey.

They shouldn't. But they legally can't be prevented from doing so as long as there is no boys' team. Which is very unfortunate for the girls - but then, not being able to play at all would be very unfortunate for the boys.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 03:13:08 PM
So what you are saying is that it's not the chosen gender identity that makes a person eligible for the men's or women's teams, but instead it's their hormones?

So suppose I am a teenage transgirl, who dresses and acts like a female in all aspects of my life, but cannot get access to hormone therapy because I am underage, but have been accepted by all my peers as female.  Then by your logic I must still play on the boy's teams/sports in school because I have not started hormones despite the fact that I am living fulltime as female and therefore completely invalidating my chosen identity?

Very ignorant posts Ashley. Absolutely yes your gender identity should not be considered in regards to sports, but only your hormone levels. It would be ridiculous otherwise. An NBA player could dress as a woman, say they are MtF, and not take hormones and play in (and most likely dominate) the WNBA. Considering anything else besides things from a biological standpoint with regards to sports is just plain stupid. Field hockey is unfortunate in that there is no boy's team, but that is the exception and not the rule. Girls are allowed to play on typically boys only teams like football, and in those instances there would be nothing wrong with them taking testosterone. Testosterone gives an obvious competitive edge so I really see little difference in an MtF not on hormones playing on a girl's team and a genetic girl taking steroids for a similar competitive edge.