I'm starting this thread mostly because of something said in another thread. I don't want to call people out but there's some who believe people here can't have a open discussion on NOT transitioning. Although I feel the purpose of this area of this message board is for those who are thinking about, are currently, or already have transitioned, there's others here as well who have questions, concerns, comments and view points that don't fit in perfectly with transitioning.

I think we CAN have a single topic discussion on personal circumstances that either lead to or away from transition. It might help some people, it might give the people who come here because they feel they're on a crusade an area to air out what their feelings are.

For me, I may not like the label "transsexual" or any other type of "gender-disorder" label (GID, transgender, etc etc) but it most certainly exists. What also exists are females who, for whatever reason think they want to be male. In that case, they're not transsexuals. Whatever their reasons are, only they know. There's also people who are still questioning. I truly believe someone can be born with a male brain and a female body (or anywhere in between, which is where I kind of fall).

The thing I would just like to say is to those who are on a crusade to change other people's minds, stop. It's a foolish endeavor at best, no matter what your intentions are. Everyone has real, personal issues that at the end of the day they will need to make their own decisions about.

Making fun of people, arguing that one view point is wrong and another is right, mis-information, and personal crusades to gain converts are all not very acceptable to me.

Thoughts? Comments? Discussions?

Thank you for opening this.
I am going to sleep now, and I don't think tomorrow I'll be able to join, but I'm glad you opened this topic.

My goal in helping people with gender issues has always been to help them come to their own conclusions on what is best for them. We're all on our own personal paths and what I've done on my path may not be relevant to others.

Transition is a huge change to someone's life, but so is a big career move or joining the military or sticking your face in a fan. These are things that only the person who's living that life can really determine if it's the right or wrong path. This is why I don't advocate for or against transition. Everyone must weigh their options, inform themselves and think long and hard over what they can realistically get from transition, what they can lose and what they really want out of life.

Quote from: Osiris on November 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
My goal in helping people with gender issues has always been to help them come to their own conclusions on what is best for them. We're all on our own personal paths and what I've done on my path may not be relevant to others.

Transition is a huge change to someone's life, but so is a big career move or joining the military or sticking your face in a fan. These are things that only the person who's living that life can really determine if it's the right or wrong path. This is why I don't advocate for or against transition. Everyone must weigh their options, inform themselves and think long and hard over what they can realistically get from transition, what they can lose and what they really want out of life.

Yeah I pretty much think the same thing.

This is a very personal topic, so I don't feel that any of us can know what is right or wrong for another.  Let's share our opinions but in a respectful way.  In short, play nice kids.   

Hey transition is working so far for me and I felt it was something that I needed to do. I however, due to various reasons, have had a 4 year wait on getting hormones and will hopefully finally be getting them in January. Meaning, I had a lot of time to be sure it was right for me.

I think it's a personal decision for everyone so I work hard on dispelling myths, giving the information that anyone asks for, and if I'm not sure if I'm right I make sure the person knows that. Most of the people here, if not all, do the same which is what I love about this site. I came across many sites before I found this one that either pushed transition or went to the extreme opposite and stated that no one should transition which I hate. If I had come to the conclusion that transition was not right for me I wouldn't and I would hope everyone would respect that which is why I respect those not transitioning.

I do however sometimes ask why a person has decided to transition but I make a point of saying they don't have to answer. I believe I actually had asked you insideontheoutside at one point. I'm sorry to anyone who finds the question offensive. I just am a curious person who wants to learn. In most cases I hear the person doesn't want to inject themselves, they don't want to use synthetic T, or they just don't feel they need to transition. All are respectable answers in my opinion. Sorry for the rant. 

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 15, 2010, 05:14:45 PM
What also exists are females who, for whatever reason think they want to be male. In that case, they're not transsexuals. Whatever their reasons are, only they know.

I think this is what the real issue here is.  Just looking at the sentence is pretty offensive to me and probably to others on the board.  Bluetraveller's insinuations and 'warnings' and constant finicking since she came on here on this sort of subject is the reason this thread was opened right?

What do you mean by the statement insideontheoutside?  Because it seems you are saying that there are "females" who aren't proper transsexuals but they "think" they want to be male?     I've "thought" I want to be male for a long time while still presenting female.  Then I decided to go ahead and consider making that a reality. 

I think that a statement like that is invalidating the status of people who are only questioning and is judgemental.  On this forum it's nobody's perogative to decide the validity of another person's trans identity. 

I think we should leave the doubts for the outside world and keep this place as a SUPPORT forum.  I am sure that everybody who visits here has seen enough questioning, devaluing and the constant doubt of their identities every day.  Why bring that here?  We all have to go through therapy to get to transition anyway.  We all have to tell our friends and actually live in this new role.  These people come to Susans to be in a community of people with similar issues.  Not to be flagged down even more. 

Let's respect each other's choices.

Quote from: Alessandro on November 16, 2010, 04:01:45 AM
I think this is what the real issue here is.  Just looking at the sentence is pretty offensive to me and probably to others on the board.  Bluetraveller's insinuations and 'warnings' and constant finicking since she came on here on this sort of subject is the reason this thread was opened right?

What do you mean by the statement insideontheoutside?  Because it seems you are saying that there are "females" who aren't proper transsexuals but they "think" they want to be male?     I've "thought" I want to be male for a long time while still presenting female.  Then I decided to go ahead and consider making that a reality. 

I think that a statement like that is invalidating the status of people who are only questioning and is judgemental.  On this forum it's nobody's perogative to decide the validity of another person's trans identity. 

I think we should leave the doubts for the outside world and keep this place as a SUPPORT forum.  I am sure that everybody who visits here has seen enough questioning, devaluing and the constant doubt of their identities every day.  Why bring that here?  We all have to go through therapy to get to transition anyway.  We all have to tell our friends and actually live in this new role.  These people come to Susans to be in a community of people with similar issues.  Not to be flagged down even more. 

Let's respect each other's choices.

"Bluetraveller's insinuations and 'warnings' and constant finicking since she came on here on this sort of subject is the reason this thread was opened right?" I believe you are correct.

Insideontheoutside wasn't aiming that statement at any ftm here.

In Blue's case it turned out she wasn't really ftm so she's making it her personal crusade to "save" everyone, or "girls who may be like her" from transitioning. Yeah, okay that's fine and dandy, but to come to our ftm space and to start issuing warnings to everyone is a bit much. To get called out on it and deny it and call it "research" is icing on the cake. And what is Blue doing posting in the 'Just for Us' section anyway.  Maybe there should be a "questioning" section so that Blue can post all she wants and reach her intended audience.

Bluetraveler has reached her 15 posts in order to view and post in the Just for Us section and as a member has every right to do so.

As I posted above we all have our personal paths and I hope that on this forum we can ALL understand and respect each other as we share our experiences. Of course there are differences and yes we will disagree, but we must all continue to be respectful of each other.

I don't want this thread to become an attack or dis-fest on anyone. And I know that if you're upset with some posts or a certain message being shared that you should express that so hopefully all parties can find some understanding. Keep that goal in mind, to try and at least understand each other even if you can't agree with each other.

If you need to, take a break, watch something cute, and get back to life.  There's enough hate in this world without us picking on each other.   

0:13 in that vid.     I used to have two ginger cats that liked to curl up in flowerpots together just like that.  Pleasant surprise.  (And much better than the original thread topic!)

Quote from: Alessandro on November 16, 2010, 04:01:45 AM
What do you mean by the statement insideontheoutside?  Because it seems you are saying that there are "females" who aren't proper transsexuals but they "think" they want to be male?     I've "thought" I want to be male for a long time while still presenting female.  Then I decided to go ahead and consider making that a reality. 

I think that a statement like that is invalidating the status of people who are only questioning and is judgemental.  On this forum it's nobody's perogative to decide the validity of another person's trans identity. 

I think we should leave the doubts for the outside world and keep this place as a SUPPORT forum.  I am sure that everybody who visits here has seen enough questioning, devaluing and the constant doubt of their identities every day.  Why bring that here?  We all have to go through therapy to get to transition anyway.  We all have to tell our friends and actually live in this new role.  These people come to Susans to be in a community of people with similar issues.  Not to be flagged down even more. 

Let's respect each other's choices.

I find it fascinating how you're offended by my statement but not by some of the other posts that have occurred here on the board. I'm just looking for an open two-way discussion instead of the, "OMG LOOK AT THIS POST YOU MUST READ RIGHT NOW" tactic that I've noticed going on. That's not appropriate imo and it's not supportive either. What it is, is a one-sided crusade. What I'm trying to do by starting this topic is take the crusade out of it and turn it into a logical and rational discussion. My intention is not to diss anyone or to get anyone riled up but I've followed all the threads enough that it seems a number of individuals would be open to a single thread such as this where a discussion can happen on not-transitioning, reasons for that, etc.

What I meant by that statement, Alessandro, is that there are people who through their life experiences and personal choices determine they are actually female even though they might have thought they wanted to be male. I thought it was a pretty plain statement. If someone determines they are female, in a female body, then by definition they are not a transsexual. Just one illustration of the variety when it comes to gender.

Personally, I feel that whatever someone decides is okay and it's their decision to make. We all have many different factors that effect our decisions. And I think everyone here is very capable of making their own choices. What I don't find helpful is an opinion that is put onto someone (or a group of people) that they're making the wrong decision. That is judgmental and not helpful. Someone telling someone else that they simply have "a disorder" (or that they simply have so much hate that they've internalized it) or someone telling someone else they have the reason why that person feels a certain way is also inappropriate. I'm learning as I go along in life, just like (hopefully) everyone else and I've found that when people can't separate fact from opinion it causes a lot of problems.

In starting this thread I was hoping to keep this type of discussion out of other topics on the board so that the rest of it can be a supportive environment.

Plenty of us come here because we have no trans support any where else. It may be the only place where we can open up and be our true selves. It may be the only place where we can find some comfort knowing that other people out there may be feeling things like we do or may have had to deal with things in their lives like we have.

For me, personally, that is why I come here. I have to do a lot of "acting" in my life because I never transitioned. Some things have been a lot easier (for instance, I've been able to get married and basically, secretly give the middle finger to the "establishment" because I'm playing their game by their rules but in my private life and most of my daily I live how I want). The large majority of my friends, my parents, people I do business with all deal with me as a female (although my gender rarely does come up), but that doesn't change who I really am either. Most of the time, when I'm out in the world, I dress male, act male, etc because you know what? I AM male. And it's always been that way. I don't have a "disorder" I was born this way. It doesn't matter if there's an "F" on my birth certificate or my driver's license. How I'm living now was my personal compromise and one I chose to make alone. No one told me to make this decision. I have bad days just like anyone else, but most are good days because I'm confident with who I am on the inside. This works for ME and it's a very personal decision. Not everyone could make that decision and I would never tell anyone else to make a decision like mine. I can be an example that there's a measure of hope, but everyone has to figure it out for themselves. I'm not on a crusade. I may have strong opinions on some things. Those opinions were formed through my own personal experiences and they're opinions - not dictations on how someone else should live their life or "warnings". If I had to pick a crusade it would be, THINK FOR YOURSELF.

Also - I just wanted to add that whether you don't go through transition, whether you go through a partial transition or whether you go through a full transition should not be the determination on your own personal gender identity.

I think that is one of my main points actually for the "other side" of the discussion - those of us that, for whatever reason end up choosing not to transition. That also doesn't mean we're "less trans". It also doesn't mean we ALL are trans. There's so much variation when it comes personal identity and gender. I really don't feel that rigid rules and definitions do justice to everyone.

Agreed: The steps that someone takes to transition - or the steps they don't take - has absolutely no bearing on gender identity.

Agreed: This forum is not only for those who identify specifically as FTMs or trans or any other label a person chooses for him, her or hir self.

Point of contention: In an online community that aims to offer support for various subgroups among the transgender umbrella as well as general/umbrella forums, what type of discourse is respectful and appropriate within a particular subgroup, particularly the FTM one.

What makes the discussion respectful and appropriate has nothing to do with the identity of the poster. The fact that I'm a transdude (hey, that's the label I prefer - snicker) doesn't give me the right to denigrate anyone's choices or experience or to tell you how to be trans or not be.

I think what it boils down to is that there are NOT two sides to the discussion. Side 1 is being respectful and mindful of other people's choices and experiences. Side 2 is not being respectful in understanding or recognizing people's experiences and choices. There is really no place for Side 2, and I can only speak for myself, but I find it particularly frustrating when Side 2 is coming from someone who is not gender variant in ANY way that actually fits within this particular subgroup category. The dudeliest transdude ever isn't entitled to denigrate anyone anymore than a cis-girl. Both of them would suck. But my hope would be that a jerkass transdude would reform his ways and be a vibrant member of the community, whereas I just want the cis-girl to go find someone else to talk to.

We are on the same side here - in favor of respectful discourse - and I think your point about gender variance is an important one.

Yeah sorry insideontheoutside, I think I retaliated to that statement in particular cos I was having a bad day.  When I'm not feeling heavily fed up with my life I tend to just let negative things (or things I percieve as negative) on the internet wash over me.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.  I guess that line just hit me when I was down 

Quote from: Sean on November 17, 2010, 01:59:43 PM
I think what it boils down to is that there are NOT two sides to the discussion. Side 1 is being respectful and mindful of other people's choices and experiences. Side 2 is not being respectful in understanding or recognizing people's experiences and choices.

I think that's definitely 2 ways to go about having a discussion about anything. What I meant though in regards to the 2 sides were people who are transitioning (or plan to, or have done so partially and chose not to go further, or have already finished transitioning) and people who choose not to transition for whatever reason - whether it be something like my own or something else entirely.

And @Alessandro, it's cool. We all have crappy days. I just don't want anyone to think that I'm baging on certain people or even certain cross-sections of people.