Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 16, 2010, 03:10:58 AM
What really bothers me is calling them things like "tumours" or "junk", which are per se offensive terms. This underlies some contempt to the body itself, which is a major reason for which trans people are depressed.

"Tumor" is not, in and of itself, an offensive word. Among other things, a tumor is a growth or a protuberance. And I believe that other people have enlightened you about "junk."

But even so, what difference should it make to you? It's not like other people are imposing these terms upon you and insisting that you use them for yourself or for others. This is a trans support site. People who come here should expect that a lot of the members have problems with their, um, members. That discomfort is one of the most common characteristics that lots of trans people, particularly transsexuals, tend to share. Not all of them, by any means, but you're going to see a lot more of that discomfort on a trans site than on a non-trans site. That's one reason we come here, to talk about our commonalities. Our trans commonalities. So anyone here, trans or not but especially trans, can call a body part a birth defect or a cancerous growth or a monstrosity or worse, and the beautiful thing is that this language will usually be understood by the people here to be personal, not universal, and an indication of the daily distress that many of us grapple with. It's a fact of this site.

And let me straighten out one more thing while I am here. I am speaking purely for myself.

When I am depressed about being trans, my "contempt" for my body is not what depresses me.

The wrongness of my body depresses me.

The things I have and that I feel I should not have depress me.

The lack of what I feel I should have had depresses me.

Other trans people's pain depresses me.

Trans-unfriendly bureaucracies depress me.

Discrimination, and other people's bigotry and rejection, depress me.

Other people's telling me how I should respond to and label my own body parts just PISSES ME OFF.

Crap. Sorry. I really had something to contribute. I did.

But it struck me as poetically ironic that IOTO posted annoyance with people's telling other people how to label themselves, and then...well, you know.

I had all sorts of names for my chest, but that part of my body has been surgically corrected.

Like a lot of guys in trans circles, I do not use terminology that is female-specific.

I think of and refer to my nether part, my little hooded cobra, as junk, privates, stuff. I often use the term "dick" but not "penis."

I have a front hole. I don't call it much else. There's no real male analog. Way back when, I thought of it as my boy hole, but that term didn't survive very long.

My innards I refer to sometimes as, well, innards. Or inside stuff. I often think of all of that as a growth and sometimes a tumor. Occasionally I think of it as an alien, a bloodsucking leech, and a parasite--almost as if it were a fetus living off my body. It helps me to think of it as something that sort of grew there, something diseased and abnormal that isn't life-threatening but that will eventually be removed.

Actually, I liked your first post. It stated with reasonable calmness what I was getting irritated about, without any of the muddled ranting my post would have contained. But now that that's taken care of I can actually respond to the original question.

I call my chest my chest. Sometimes moobs, because I am a man with boobs, therefore they are man-boobs. When I had just hit puberty I was fond of referring to them with very colourful phrases such as "these !@#$%^&* floppy !@#$bags," but it got tiring after a while. If I'm very dysphoric a particular day I might refer to them mentally as pecs, since that's what should be there.

Stuff below - my genitals, my bits, my crotch, my nether-regions. Gender neutral terms. More recently I've taken to using the word dick for what I have, sometimes dicklet. The uterus and such are my reproductive organs, or gamete producers. In times of frustration I call it all my girly innards.

The way I see it, I am male and this is the body I have, therefore I have a male body. Male bodies have male parts and organs. The irregularity of these organs in appearance and function doesn't change that, so there's no reason I can't use male terms for them.

I say breasts, boobs, and "the girls".  They'll also get called "airbags" or "floatation devices" or anything else.

I also say vagina and hoo-hah and all sorts of random things. 

Words are just words to me so I use whatever comes to mind.  I'm not a picky person when it comes to it.

I think of my entire body sometimes as a trans body, sometimes as a hybrid body. More and more, though, I'm thinking of it and referring to it as an atypical male body. I am well aware that biologists and anatomists might dispute this characterization, but since the terms "male" and "female" have evolved to encompass aspects other than biological sex, I don't much care what other folks think. I do what I must to get through the day.

I sometimes jokingly call my breasts chestbursters (from the Alien films). I don't really have a name for what's "below the belt", I rarely talk about it and if I do, I call it "down there", "crotch", "genitals", etc. I also call my breasts moobs, fat, growths, and other such things. I don't like talking about them.

I don't really care about what's below the belt, really. It's the chest growth that makes me disgusted. That and the hips. It just looks so bizarre; my body has morphed into something unrecognizable. Gross.

Quote from: Maldita on November 17, 2010, 12:34:17 AM
That and the hips.

I keep telling myself that lots of cis guys are hippy...I've seen them. It helps. I think we tend to want a body that is typical in every way, and then we fixate on all sorts of little details.

I remember nearly twenty years ago...well, '92 or '93...and I was thinking how glad I was that I didn't really have a "figure." I mean, I had chest growths, but I didn't have a narrow waist or big hips. It wasn't extreme. Now, my hips haven't gotten any wider, but they do look so odd with a flat chest above them. The disparity is unsettling. So now I obsess about my hips. It's kind of stupid, but I can't seem to stop. Fortunately, I don't do it often, maybe a couple of times a week.

Well, I really have a figure. Huge child-bearin' hips (rather uncommon here in Sweden, where most women/woman-bodied are more of the slender-and-willowy type), rather large breasts, rather marked waist. Hourglass figure, and an arse to rest a pint on and park a bike in.

Not a good body shape for a boy. I look like this:

Quote from: Maldita on November 17, 2010, 06:16:48 AM
Well, I really have a figure. Huge child-bearin' hips (rather uncommon here in Sweden, where most women/woman-bodied are more of the slender-and-willowy type), rather large breasts, rather marked waist. Hourglass figure, and an arse to rest a pint on and park a bike in.

Not a good body shape for a boy. I look like this:

I got them wide hips too...

and yet.... hubby wears the same size pants as I do. (Waist-wise, not length, my pant-lenght is three sizes above his.)

Somehow I've managed to consider my nether regions, downstairs and innards as mine and the rest as being shaped or in size differently to a typical blokes and they don't cause me dysphoria but I refer to my chest as "chest" usually. I don't mind what other people want to call their bits but if certain words bring on dysphoria with my chest I own that that's my reaction to such words, my problem.

I think most of you actually didn't read the post on my blog (not even here!) which started this topic...I wasn't ordering anyone to do anything, it was just a message really, and I didn't focus on any specific person. I also don't get offended as a female if a FTM calls his breasts "tumours", if that that is what he thinks of his breasts, I'm just sorry he has this view of them because it causes unnecessary grief. What about seeing them as scars? That's the point I was making in my post


EDIT: my original post

I don't think this will make into a full-blown post, but since I feel like writing, and I have many things to say but little time, I'll post it anyway. The comments might be more interesting than the post itself.

I mainly visited FTM forums or FTM areas, I don't know if something similar happens in MTF sections so if you know, please post a comment. The following observation are limited to FTM areas:

Bodies. They are important, they matter and they are not to be treated lightly. We as humans are not just our body (otherwise what would the Elephant Man get to say?), but it's important that we recognize our phisicality and strive to make the most of it everyday (but not to the point of obsession or nevrosis, of course). I started having more physical problems when, after puberty, I distanced myself from my new, adult female body, but it was only when I started to accept it that the problems went away (I had psychological amenhorrea, that is, lack of menstruations wIhich caused me endless problems). So I experienced on myself the fact that body and mind ARE connected, there's no Cartesian dualism or brains floating in formaldeide jars (Futurama is wrong!).
Why am I prefacing this?

In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts. More or less like this:

breasts = chest (still acceptable?), moobs, chesticles, chest tumours, junk
vagina = hole, front hole, bleeding hole, junk
clitoris = dick, little guy, junk
ovaries = reverse testicles, tumours, junk
uterus = babymaker, baby factory, junk
Your body is NOT JUNK! You may not like it, but it's a valuable thing, even if it "betrayed" you at puberty! Female parts are part of your history, regardless of the fact you like it or not, just like scars and wrinkles are. You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well. Guess what, I'd LOVE to have a more mature, androgynous looking face, so that I could "pass" as my real age and not get weird looks when I talk complex stuff or I drive, but it's part of me and the solutions to the obstacles I had to overcome for it (in my field especially) are now part of me too. So if I magically changed my face to something more mature and masculine, I'd lose an important part of myself as well.
Don't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

I think what I said is essentially very different that what you intended.


EDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

I didn't read your blog. I looked for it but couldn't find the link. I was just commenting on the original post of this topic.

Calling my breasts tumors does not cause me any distress, no more than calling my leg a leg or my elbow an elbow. Yes I was top surgery and am getting it soon but it doesn't have anything to do with the word. It has to do with the fact that no matter what they are, no matter what you call them, I want them off. I've been on this road for awhile, obviously not as long as some, and probably not as long as some people who eventually changed their mind but for me personally, I know that right now I am doing the right thing for me. If that for some absolutely insane reason changes somewhere down the road then I will have to deal with that when the time comes, just as I dealt with this.

Just change it to:

in FTM internet forums, as well as in real life many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

Let it go as that, it's true enough.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
I also don't get offended as a female if a FTM calls his breasts "tumours", if that that is what he thinks of his breasts, I'm just sorry he has this view of them because it causes unnecessary grief. What about seeing them as scars? That's the point I was making in my post.

Bodies. They are important, they matter and they are not to be treated lightly. We as humans are not just our body (otherwise what would the Elephant Man get to say?), but it's important that we recognize our phisicality and strive to make the most of it everyday (but not to the point of obsession or nevrosis, of course). Why am I prefacing this?

In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

With all due respect to the fact that you are a non-native English speaker, I think you fail to understand how offensive your posts are to some of us, because YOU ARE NOT TRANS!

Calling breasts "tumours" isn't what gives transmen grief. Most of us experience grief over the fact that we have breasts. To insinuate that we are feeling grief because of the words that people use is a MAJOR misunderstanding of the trans experience, and you think that because you tried on a pair of our shoes and they didn't fit you, you have some insight to give us about what we feel. Calling them scars doesn't change the problem of being a man with breasts anymore than calling them tumours or whatever.

many of us are "making the most" of our bodies, but believe that it is only by changing our bodies that we can truly be who we are. If you do not understand the role of body dysmorphia or what it actuallymeans to be a GUY who has to deal with a female BODY, then you are in no position to lecture any of us on making the bets of our bodies. Your dysmorphia experience is your own and not particularly relevant to most of us in this FTM community.

Last, calling the behavior of FTMs as ridiculous and childish is flat-out insulting name calling.

I have tried to be patient with your posts here,as I am a lurker who only recently started posting, but howdare you come to this supposed safe space broadcasting your wonderful discovery of your not being trans and then calling our responses to our experiences as ridiculous and childish? This is not about native English speaking or about culture,because people have been telling you that you are acting in a rude and offensive way, and you ar enot listening.

Please start listening and understand what we are saying before you post again and insult us. You do have a valuable experience to share in determiningthat you are not trans, but if you can only share it in a devaluing and derogatory way you don't belong here.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts. More or less like this:

EDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

Ok - on the first thing above ... when you use words such as "ridiculous" and "childish" that is your opinion of course but it puts a derogatory spin on the opinion too. As another example, take a statement like, "I really don't like what you just said," and compare it to, "I really don't like that stupid thing you just said." Just a couple added words makes a difference in there. Instead of just making a simple observation of, "Many people seem to use other terms for their body parts" you added in that extra bit.

Now on #2 - First, thanks for the personal diss. If I would have wanted to comment on your blog about this topic, I would have. You blog made me think of the topic in general and I was actually interested to hear everyone else's take on what they call their parts and it made me think of several other general points I wanted to make - which I thought I did already in the initial post.

I don't care what you post in your blog. You can post whatever you want there because it's your blog. However I didn't know there was some unknown rule that if someone were to read your blog they could only talk about it (in general terms, no less) on your blog. Guess I better get with the program.

"junk" as a term for "men's genitalia" is commonly used by cis-men and cis-women alike...
My husband sometimes refers to his genitalia as junk, sometimes in reference to needing a shave, sometimes in reference to needing attention, sometimes in passing for no reason. He doesn't use the term derogatorily, nor with hostility. Nor do I use the term negatively when I'm talking 'bout his junk. I love his junk. It's awesome!

Trans-people don't feel negatively towards their body-parts because they use negative terms for them, they use negative terms for them because they feel really, really, really, really, really negatively towards them.
As in, it's hard for me to say "breasts" when referring to what's on my chest, not because I call the chesticles chesticles, but because I do not want them there, because they don't go there, because they are "wrong". Because I need to get rid of them to feel remotely comfortable with my chest.

As in, I'm a guy, a bloke, a dude, a man, a "HE", and I should not have "breasts".

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts. More or less like this:

Okay, I have to know.  Bluetraveler, do you always refer to all your body parts by their proper, anatomical names?  Do all your cis friends and relatives do the same?  I've heard people of many identities use non-technical terminology for parts of their body.  Please don't think this is an FTM-specific issue.  I think others have already covered why "junk" is not a condemnation of anyone's genitals, but I've personally been using that word for myself since years before I dared to think of my body in any male-framed way, and some other people I know have done the same, so I don't think it's a gendered/sexed term at all.

On an unrelated note, as a dude who has actually had a brush with breast cancer (me personally, not just a friend/family member), I do find the use of the term "tumor" somewhat distressing.  But it is absolutely not my place to tell others how to describe their bodies; even if I can tell them that I disapprove of the use of the word and why, I can only hope they refrain from using that word in a non-medically accurate sense out of consideration for my history, as it is not my place to tell them how to verbalize their thoughts on their bodies.  Maybe everyone here would benefit from reading this article about how we as a society think about the bodies of trans folks: http://nonop.zxq.net/homology.html.

My chest is a chest and my crotch is a crotch.

I missed this line at the first readthrough..

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMremember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

Exactly what is that supposed to mean?

I have scars caused by violence towards me, aimed to harm me. Those scars are "cool" but the ones I'll have after I choose to take charge of my own body, choose to get rid of something that causes me severe psychological harm, those will be "not cool".

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMEDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

The conversation is on a topic that affects a lot of trans-folk. We get a lot of flack against us in a lot of places. As such, these conversations sometimes find their way here, where we discuss these things amongst ourselves.
If you'd rather we'd post our objections/corrections to your blog, the lot of us, you should post the link.

For the most part people have pointed out most of the problems with the post, but is anyone else made a little uncomfortable by the following?

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
We as humans are not just our body (otherwise what would the Elephant Man get to say?), but it's important that we recognize our phisicality and strive to make the most of it everyday (but not to the point of obsession or nevrosis, of course).

Female parts are part of your history, regardless of the fact you like it or not, just like scars and wrinkles are. You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions.

EDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

First, we are not just our body, but then later who we are is dependent on our junk?
I'd like to think that my junk has nothing to do with who I am, since it doesn't. 

On a personal level, I do not appreciate being told that I have "female parts" (especially in the context of said parts defining who I am). If others wish to refer to their anatomy that way then that's none of my business, but I am MALE and as such my body is male as far as I'm considered. It may not be a traditional male body by most standards, but it is certainly not female.

Also, I really like the part where our masculinity was questioned, in what appears to be a condescending tone (granted, tone doesn't carry well through text). That made my day. (Can you feel the sarcasm?)